Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[happydood]

Originally Posted by svenge

Definitely true, but having ol' George flip the bird to the fanbase by having Emo Anakin as a Force ghost and dubbing in a Gungan voiceover during the ending celebration really rubs the salt into the wound.

See, I don't think he's really flipping the bird to anybody rather than second-guessing his own artistic choices which is something you can't do in an age of such scrutiny- Lucas is obviously the proof. It's also why I think the best solution is to go around him and obtain a version that's watchable.

I don't hate Walt Disney for burying Song Of The South (although it's merits are questionable anyway and I may actually hate him for triggering the Red Scare in Hollywood- but that's another story.) But that can apparently be seen if one is so inclined. Rather, I'll celebrate the good movies he made and likewise George Lucas deserves my respect for what he did right imo even though I don't agree with a lot of what he's done to the franchise. I'm cup-half-full about the whole thing.

[crissrudd4554]

Lucas is an artist. He makes the changes to please himself. I admire and hate him for that. The reality is he doesnt owe his fans anything that he feels he doesnt owe to himself. He feels he owes it to himself and everybody else but mostly himself to keep only the SE's out there because they represent 'his vision'. Hes more concerned on being a perfectionist and staying true to his expanding imagination than answering to his fanbase. Maybe, speaking from an artistic perspective, he doesnt have to. Artists like to please themselves and be there own critics. He feels it downgrades his role as an artist to deliver something that he knew he could improve upon. Whether WE feel he improved upon himself really is irrelevent, the man has gotten what he wants regardless of what the fans say. Am i happy about it? No. A good part of film history has been taken away but at the same time I cant deny that the man is an artist and hes treating this the way an artist would, if that makes sense.

[happydood]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

Lucas is an artist. He makes the changes to please himself. I admire and hate him for that. The reality is he doesnt owe his fans anything that he feels he doesnt owe to himself. He feels he owes it to himself and everybody else but mostly himself to keep only the SE's out there because they represent 'his vision'. Hes more concerned on being a perfectionist and staying true to his expanding imagination than answering to his fanbase. Maybe, speaking from an artistic perspective, he doesnt have to. Artists like to please themselves and be there own critics. He feels it downgrades his role as an artist to deliver something that he knew he could improve upon. Whether WE feel he improved upon himself really is irrelevent, the man has gotten what he wants regardless of what the fans say. Am i happy about? No. A good part of film history has been taken away but at the same time I cant deny that the man is an artist and hes treating this the way an artist would, if that makes sense.

Thank you! this is just not an easily compartmentalized issue. The ubiquity of not only movies, but everything relating to them makes it impossible to judge them in the same context they were made, which is why it's important to come to them rather than expecting them to come to you. I so wish Lucas understood that. I also wish a lot of vocal critics understood that it applies to a modern context, too.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by happydood

There are a lot of bad writing choices in the Prequels, but I don't think that's one of them- at least intentionally. I think it works as a mythological, or at least tragic/operatic concept- and that's the level Lucas works on- regardless of believable dialogue. He's guilty of enough things without trying to find something else...

The fact that a cool, strong, brave character was gutted by turning her into something out of a weird love child between an Italian opera and a Harlequin Romance paperback is exactly what's so bad about that particular writing choice.

When Romeo and Juliet each thought the other was dead they killed themselves because neither saw any point to living without other. That's tragic and romantic and so forth and so on.

Padme was a Queen, a Senator, a warrior and a new mother. The thought that she would react to Anakin's turn by taking to the nearest fainting couch and losing the will to live isn't romantic. It's pathetic.

[Ben_UK]

If he was that dissatisfied with the original 3 films, he should have simply re-made them, not tarnished iconic films of such historical importance.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

Lucas is an artist. He makes the changes to please himself. I admire and hate him for that. The reality is he doesnt owe his fans anything that he feels he doesnt owe to himself. He feels he owes it to himself and everybody else but mostly himself to keep only the SE's out there because they represent 'his vision'. Hes more concerned on being a perfectionist and staying true to his expanding imagination than answering to his fanbase. Maybe, speaking from an artistic perspective, he doesnt have to. Artists like to please themselves and be there own critics. He feels it downgrades his role as an artist to deliver something that he knew he could improve upon. Whether WE feel he improved upon himself really is irrelevent, the man has gotten what he wants regardless of what the fans say. Am i happy about? No. A good part of film history has been taken away but at the same time I cant deny that the man is an artist and hes treating this the way an artist would, if that makes sense.

Indeed. I've mentioned this before but the book Droidmaker (about the evolution of Lucas' digital dream) makes what I think is a very good point: Lucas strove to free himself from the strictures of the studio system and also the boundaries of analogue filmmaking, so did the fans really think that he would be beholden to them as well? We were simply the last to feel the patented Lucas '****-All-Y'all'™ attitude.

[AintNoSin]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

Lucas is an artist. He makes the changes to please himself.

Then couldn't he have just made the changes to his copies and left the rest of us alone?

[Lyle_JP]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

We were simply the last to feel the patented Lucas '****-All-Y'all'™ attitude.

We're not the last. Apparently, his neighbors will be the last.

[mzupeman]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Indeed. I've mentioned this before but the book Droidmaker (about the evolution of Lucas' digital dream) makes what I think is a very good point: Lucas strove to free himself from the strictures of the studio system and also the boundaries of analogue filmmaking, so did the fans really think that he would be beholden to them as well? We were simply the last to feel the patented Lucas '****-All-Y'all'™ attitude.

The funny thing, is that he did precisely what he set out to do... at the start. He was even out there saying that films shouldn't be changed, because they deserve to be preserved. But as soon as fame and money rolled around and opportunity came knocking on his doorstep... that wasn't enough. No, he essentially became the corporate monstrosity that he tried to break free from in the first place.

[BluBonnet]

Originally Posted by mzupeman

The funny thing, is that he did precisely what he set out to do... at the start. He was even out there saying that films shouldn't be changed, because they deserve to be preserved.

That is a huge misrepresentation of the actual intent that Lucas, Spielberg, Scorsese and other directors have been advocating- essentially, that movies shouldn't be altered against the wishes of the filmmakers.

Lucas is definitely a one-of-a-kind genius, both on the creative and business sides. He has every right to change his own films if he please - last time I checked, America was still a free country.

I may not agree with all the changes he made to the OT or wiwitches withdrawal of the original cuts from the home video market - but I totally recognize he had the right as a filmmaker to make changes to his own movies and, as a businessman, to put on sale whichever version he darn well pleased. Only in a totalitarian regime would his freedom as a filmmaker or a businessman to do as he wished with his work and properties be taken away. Do you really want to live in such a regime?

Now, things are different, he again exercised his right to do business as he darn well pleased and sold Lucasfilm to Disney; he also agreed as part of the deal that Disney can now take the story in whichever direction they darn well please.

Disney may now take a more viewer-friendly approach - but make no mistake, they are only doing it because they want your money and will do nearly anything to make you spend more money on SW movies, merchandise, attractions, etc.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by BluBonnet

That is a huge misrepresentation of the actual intent that Lucas, Spielberg, Scorsese and other directors have been advocating- essentially, that movies shouldn't be altered against the wishes of the filmmakers.

It's really not a huge misrepresentation. Lucas was lobbying Congress for a law limiting the rights of property owners to do with their property as they saw fit. And as part of his lobbying effort he essentially argued that the US government had the right to tell Ted Turner what he could with the movies he owned because the public kind of sort of owned them too.

Only he didn't say kind of sort of. He said American works of art belong to the American public.

Originally Posted by BluBonnet

He has every right to change his own films if he please - last time I checked, America was still a free country.

Heh, that's what I was saying about Ted Turner thirty years ago

[RickDee]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

Lucas is an artist. He makes the changes to please himself. I admire and hate him for that. The reality is he doesnt owe his fans anything that he feels he doesnt owe to himself. He feels he owes it to himself and everybody else but mostly himself to keep only the SE's out there because they represent 'his vision'. Hes more concerned on being a perfectionist and staying true to his expanding imagination than answering to his fanbase. Maybe, speaking from an artistic perspective, he doesnt have to. Artists like to please themselves and be there own critics. He feels it downgrades his role as an artist to deliver something that he knew he could improve upon. Whether WE feel he improved upon himself really is irrelevent, the man has gotten what he wants regardless of what the fans say. Am i happy about it? No. A good part of film history has been taken away but at the same time I cant deny that the man is an artist and hes treating this the way an artist would, if that makes sense.

I just have to laugh at this. The guy is a Ego maniac that became what he preached against in his youth. Not only has he lied and changed his story several times to fit whatever delusional state he was currently in but the guy has become a cranky old man that's pissed at fans because fans, critics and his fellow directors have all said that he was nuts for doing what he did with his films. I remember when E.T. finally surpassed Star Wars at the box office to take the top spot years ago he was having a fit then about Star Wars dropping to # 2.

I give them man credit for putting together a great film (Star Wars) and giving us a great film about the early 60's. I also give him some credit for Empire and giving us a great story for Raiders but beyond that he has done nothing. His body of work pales in comparison to Spielberg, Kubrick and others.

[crissrudd4554]

Originally Posted by BluBonnet

That is a huge misrepresentation of the actual intent that Lucas, Spielberg, Scorsese and other directors have been advocating- essentially, that movies shouldn't be altered against the wishes of the filmmakers.

Lucas is definitely a one-of-a-kind genius, both on the creative and business sides. He has every right to change his own films if he please - last time I checked, America was still a free country.

I may not agree with all the changes he made to the OT or wiwitches withdrawal of the original cuts from the home video market - but I totally recognize he had the right as a filmmaker to make changes to his own movies and, as a businessman, to put on sale whichever version he darn well pleased. Only in a totalitarian regime would his freedom as a filmmaker or a businessman to do as he wished with his work and properties be taken away. Do you really want to live in such a regime?

Now, things are different, he again exercised his right to do business as he darn well pleased and sold Lucasfilm to Disney; he also agreed as part of the deal that Disney can now take the story in whichever direction they darn well please.

Disney may now take a more viewer-friendly approach - but make no mistake, they are only doing it because they want your money and will do nearly anything to make you spend more money on SW movies, merchandise, attractions, etc.

I dont approve of some of the things hes done, but i will never say he hasnt the right to do as he pleases because he does and i know he does. My view of it is he can do what ever he wants but at the same time finding that fine line between being an artist and giving the fans what he wants. Im a firm believer in preservation and, not counting fan edits like Harmy's version, the OUT should be preserved and available to the general public not only for those who grew up with it but for future generations who can see where the state of movie visual FX was up to that point and how it paved the road for the FX of today. But at the same time in those cases I have to respect Lucas as an artist although Im sure the success TFA is having right now is making him a bit regretful for selling his 'empire'. Whether or not Disney has plans for the OUT is anyones guess. Id like to hope that something is on the cards for the future considering we havent gotten an official response on the matter from either Disney or Lucasfilm. I think if it werent gonna be done, they would just straight up say 'no there are no plans for now or the future to restore them'.

[BluBonnet]

Originally Posted by octagon

It's really not a huge misrepresentation. Lucas was lobbying Congress for a law limiting the rights of property owners to do with their property as they saw fit. And as part of his lobbying effort he essentially argued that the US government had the right to tell Ted Turner what he could with the movies he owned because the public kind of sort of owned them too.

You're still confusing the issues. You are still confusing mere ownership of the movies, by people other than the original filmmakers. The difference is that Lucas is both the original filmmaker as well as being owner up until the sale to Disney.

Originally Posted by RickDee

I just have to laugh at this. The guy is a Ego maniac that became what he preached against in his youth.

You have every right to your opinion. At the end of the day, you are the one who devotes a big part of your life thinking and talking about Lucas - Lucas doesn't have to give your concerns a moment's thought.

[crissrudd4554]

Originally Posted by RickDee

I just have to laugh at this. The guy is a Ego maniac that became what he preached against in his youth. Not only has he lied and changed his story several times to fit whatever delusional state he was currently in but the guy has become a cranky old man that's pissed at fans because fans, critics and his fellow directors have all said that he was nuts for doing what he did with his films. I remember when E.T. finally surpassed Star Wars at the box office to take the top spot years ago he was having a fit then about Star Wars dropping to # 2.

I give them man credit for putting together a great film (Star Wars) and giving us a great film about the early 60's. I also give him some credit for Empire and giving us a great story for Raiders but beyond that he has done nothing. His body of work pales in comparison to Spielberg, Kubrick and others.

Like ive said, i dont approve of everything the guy has done or a lot of what hes said. The claim from a few years ago that Greedo shoots first in the original I knew was BS the second I read it and I still think it is. As I said a few posts ago, I respect him as the man who created one of the best film franchises ever but the man has clearly let success control him and hes now become what he was initially fighting against. You say hes an ego maniac and you know what I think youre right but I also know that artists will be artists and will do what they can for perfectionism.

[BluBonnet]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

I dont approve of some of the things hes done, but i will never say he hasnt the right to do as he pleases because he does and i know he does. My view of it is he can do what ever he wants but at the same time finding that fine line between being an artist and giving the fans what he wants. Im a firm believer in preservation and, not counting fan edits like Harmy's version, the OUT should be preserved and available to the general public not only for those who grew up with it but for future generations who can see where the state of movie visual FX was up to that point and how it paved the road for the FX of today. But at the same time in those cases I have to respect Lucas as an artist although Im sure the success TFA is having right now is making him a bit regretful for selling his 'empire'. Whether or not Disney has plans for the OUT is anyones guess. Id like to hope that something is on the cards for the future considering we havent gotten an official response on the matter from either Disney or Lucasfilm. I think if it werent gonna be done, they would just straight up say 'no there are no plans for now or the future to restore them'.

I really do hope for the eventual release of the unaltered OT, ideally there could be some sort of way to choose which (if any) of the changes you want to see when you watch the movies. There are 2 or 3 things I prefer from the special editions, but for the most part I like the unaltered versions.

And I'm also hoping for the eventual release on 3-D blu of the conversions they made a few years ago - it's almost a shame the 3-D conversions have never been released to the public.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Lyle_JP

We're not the last. Apparently, his neighbors will be the last.

Quite right, I should've said we were just the "latest" people to feel it, it seems as if Lucas will always be fighting battles of one sort or another. He'll probably find a way to cheat death just so he can prove medical science wrong, he's the real Darth Plagueis.

[Brandon K]

Originally Posted by BluBonnet

I really do hope for the eventual release of the unaltered OT, ideally there could be some sort of way to choose which (if any) of the changes you want to see when you watch the movies. There are 2 or 3 things I prefer from the special editions, but for the most part I like the unaltered versions.

I think that the easiest thing to ask for - and the most we can ever expect - is a proper Blu-ray release of the original theatrical version of ALL the Star Wars movies, alongside the latest version that George Lucas prefers of each movie. My memory is fuzzy and the websites going into this stuff vary in clarity, but wasn't the original Phantom Menace DVD not even the original theatrical version? I do realize it gets complicated with Star Wars and its 35mm vs 70mm, the dialogue heard in the mono soundtrack, etc.

If we can at least get something resembling an original theatrical version onto Blu-ray, anyone can edit their preferred version themselves, taking any bits and pieces they might personally like from the special editions. That's a lot less complex than trying to mix and match things that some fans might like - don't give them any bad ideas! And I'm including the prequels in this - so we'd have the original theatrical version of Phantom Menace with puppet Yoda.

Of course ideally we'd have a Blade Runner treatment, but I'd rather have semi-realistic expectations.

[crissrudd4554]

Originally Posted by Brandon K

I think that the easiest thing to ask for - and the most we can ever expect - is a proper Blu-ray release of the original theatrical version of ALL the Star Wars movies, alongside the latest version that George Lucas prefers of each movie. My memory is fuzzy and the websites going into this stuff vary in clarity, but wasn't the original Phantom Menace DVD not even the original theatrical version? I do realize it gets complicated with Star Wars and its 35mm vs 70mm, the dialogue heard in the mono soundtrack, etc.

If we can at least get something resembling an original theatrical version onto Blu-ray, anyone can edit their preferred version themselves, taking any bits and pieces they might personally like from the special editions. That's a lot less complex than trying to mix and match things that some fans might like - don't give them any bad ideas! And I'm including the prequels in this - so we'd have the original theatrical version of Phantom Menace with puppet Yoda.

Of course ideally we'd have a Blade Runner treatment, but I'd rather have semi-realistic expectations.

No there were slight changes made for the DVD releases of the prequels although not to the level that were made for the OT. A couple deleted scenes were added to TPM, some sound changes for AOTC, and a wipe was changed to a straight cut in ROTS. Im sure theres more but i haven't kept track of the prequel changes as much the OT changes. And yeah a DVD/BluRay release with the theartical cuts and Lucas' current approved versions would be the best scenario. Yes youll have complainers like 'they should have fixed this' or 'i wanted this version' but you cant win them all.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Brandon K

I think that the easiest thing to ask for - and the most we can ever expect - is a proper Blu-ray release of the original theatrical version of ALL the Star Wars movies, alongside the latest version that George Lucas prefers of each movie. My memory is fuzzy and the websites going into this stuff vary in clarity, but wasn't the original Phantom Menace DVD not even the original theatrical version? I do realize it gets complicated with Star Wars and its 35mm vs 70mm, the dialogue heard in the mono soundtrack, etc.

I would guess Disney will do either a pure, original cuts release on its own, or include that and the last versions already on BD. I can't see them bothering with in-between versions.

I'm very curious whether they will keep "A New Hope" or not.