Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

So Finn didn't have an arc? Kylo? Rey certainly isn't the same as she was.

Again: look at Empire. Did we ever really get to know Lando? Boba Fett? The only reason Star Wars (ANH) was self-contained is because nobody was sure there was going to be another one, and many thought it would flop.

But we didn't see Finn come out and kill a load of villagers before having his conversion, did we? He starts off questioning his path and doesn't end the film in a vastly different headspace, I'm still a bit baffled by him being so insistent that he wanted to leave them in Maz' cantina castle and then he just kinda joins up with them again. I can clearly see that his farewell bit with Rey in the castle is a reshot scene and I think they just didn't know what to do with him. As for Kylo, he starts it by killing people like a mofo and ends it by killing people (well, one person in particular) like a mofo. Sure, Rey gets all these mad skillz come to her (on top of what she already knows) but what made Luke's arc in SW so satisfying is that he learned to use his power thanks to the tutelage of others, whereas all Rey has to do is touch a light-saber and it all comes flooding back. I'm not saying that that can't happen in the SW universe, what I'm saying is that from a dramatic sense there's no build-up and no pay-off, she just gets good all of a sudden.

As for Empire: it didn't have to be self-contained, we knew it was following on from SW and we were damned well sure at the end that it would take another movie to finish this story. But I'm old-fashioned in that I like the start of any trilogy to set the scene, to lay out the rules of the universe and so on. Sure, TFA is Episode VII so the obvious comeback is "well, TFA doesn't have to be self-contained either then, does it ya genius?" but with a gap of 30 frickin' years it's just too jarring a jump for me, to leap straight back into this arena with only the opening crawl for context.

Yes, Star Wars and Phantom Menace after it are much more self-contained because both are the 'start' of Star Wars in their own way, the 1977 film in a real-world chronological sense and the 1999 film in a continuity sense. And also yes, a lot of first instalments in trilogies are so well thought out precisely because they had no inkling of further sequeldom (BTTF, The Matrix) but then there are others that were always intended to be part of a trilogy and still happen to be the best film of the bunch anyway (Fellowship of the Ring).

I'm just too old-fashioned in that respect I guess, but if the subsequent SW movies make this grand plan come alive and imbue TFA with a sense of context that I personally think is badly lacking then I will be the first person to eat some crow. But as it stands right now TFA feels like a hollow cipher of a movie to me, content to stand on the shoulders of giants whilst waiting for the story to really start. Ep VIII had better bring it, that's all I can say.

[bobbyh64]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

I rewatched the prequels this weekend. I like The Phantom Menace more than before even though I have never really hated it. AotC is still worse than being punched in the gut and while Sith still has the continuity errors I will add a half star from my last viewing to make it 2.5 out of 5. I have the despecialized OT but I think I will suffer through Lucas' CGI dumps and watch the Special editions this time. At least I know I can finish it all off with the 5/5 The Force Awakens.

What continuity errors are in Revenge of the Sith?

[Shalashaska]

The characters in the beginning and end of TFA are very different. For all the complaints people make about TFA, I think that's the least convincing. The characters definitely go through an arc.

[Arawn]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Note you left out where I said: Again, she didn't grow up on the Lars homestead with limited contact with others. She grew up alone on a world populated by droids and scavengers and scum from all over the galaxy.

Luke had obviously dealt with scavengers before and was a short distance from all kinds of scum. You don't know the extent of his contact with others.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I'm just too old-fashioned in that respect I guess, but if the subsequent SW movies make this grand plan come alive and imbue TFA with a sense of context that I personally think is badly lacking then I will be the first person to eat some crow. But as it stands right now TFA feels like a hollow cipher of a movie to me, content to stand on the shoulders of giants whilst waiting for the story to really start. Ep VIII had better bring it, that's all I can say.

I agree with this, I am just being more patient and quiet than you are. If the trilogy ends with it still feeling like half the info is missing then I will complain as loudly as anyone, but as of now I feel like it's just a teaser and intentionally so. I do disagree with the Republic/Resistance stuff you complain about though, that type of thing was never clarified much at all in the original trilogy, I think your prequel tolerance is showing there.

[Mighty Max]

Don't forget, the opening crawl was completely wasted.
Every paragraph was about Luke missing.
Then the entire rest of the movie was about Luke missing.

The crawl could have been used much better, obviously, I'm not a writer, but it could have been better had it leaned more this way:

Jedi Knight (Master?) Luke Skywalker has been missing for 30 years?...
During this time, the New Republic has faced many new challenges.
Chief among them are/is a new and upcoming Imperial faction known as the New Order. Led by Kylo Ren, a fallen Jedi, they have taken over a handful of star systems. The New Republic, wary of entering into a new war, has fallen prey to it's own complacency and from this, a new rebellion was given life, head up by Leia Skywalker-Organa-Solo.
Leia has dispatched a trusted Republic pilot to the far reaches of space to aid in a quest to find her missing brother and help establish peace once more in the Galaxy/Universe...

Galaxy and Universe are interchanged between each movie's crawl. I forget where we ended up before this one...

THAT or something similar would have been a major improvment in setting up the movie considering the 30 year gap between Jedi and Awakens. We needed some sort of backstory instead of getting thrown into it and asking questions and only finding out towards the end or online or in other media. A little bit goes a long way. If one has to constantly question everything and everyone then the movie failed. it "takes you out of it."

A movie is supposed to immerse you in it, not distract you from itself.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But we didn't see Finn come out and kill a load of villagers before having his conversion, did we? He starts off questioning his path and doesn't end the film in a vastly different headspace, I'm still a bit baffled by him being so insistent that he wanted to leave them in Maz' cantina castle and then he just kinda joins up with them again. I can clearly see that his farewell bit with Rey in the castle is a reshot scene and I think they just didn't know what to do with him. As for Kylo, he starts it by killing people like a mofo and ends it by killing people (well, one person in particular) like a mofo. Sure, Rey gets all these mad skillz come to her (on top of what she already knows) but what made Luke's arc in SW so satisfying is that he learned to use his power thanks to the tutelage of others, whereas all Rey has to do is touch a light-saber and it all comes flooding back. I'm not saying that that can't happen in the SW universe, what I'm saying is that from a dramatic sense there's no build-up and no pay-off, she just gets good all of a sudden.

As for Empire: it didn't have to be self-contained, we knew it was following on from SW and we were damned well sure at the end that it would take another movie to finish this story. But I'm old-fashioned in that I like the start of any trilogy to set the scene, to lay out the rules of the universe and so on. Sure, TFA is Episode VII so the obvious comeback is "well, TFA doesn't have to be self-contained either then, does it ya genius?" but with a gap of 30 frickin' years it's just too jarring a jump for me, to leap straight back into this arena with only the opening crawl for context.

Yes, Star Wars and Phantom Menace after it are much more self-contained because both are the 'start' of Star Wars in their own way, the 1977 film in a real-world chronological sense and the 1999 film in a continuity sense. And also yes, a lot of first instalments in trilogies are so well thought out precisely because they had no inkling of further sequeldom (BTTF, The Matrix) but then there are others that were always intended to be part of a trilogy and still happen to be the best film of the bunch anyway (Fellowship of the Ring).

I'm just too old-fashioned in that respect I guess, but if the subsequent SW movies make this grand plan come alive and imbue TFA with a sense of context that I personally think is badly lacking then I will be the first person to eat some crow. But as it stands right now TFA feels like a hollow cipher of a movie to me, content to stand on the shoulders of giants whilst waiting for the story to really start. Ep VIII had better bring it, that's all I can say.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But we didn't see Finn come out and kill a load of villagers before having his conversion, did we? He starts off questioning his path and doesn't end the film in a vastly different headspace, I'm still a bit baffled by him being so insistent that he wanted to leave them in Maz' cantina castle and then he just kinda joins up with them again. I can clearly see that his farewell bit with Rey in the castle is a reshot scene and I think they just didn't know what to do with him.

It's pretty obvious to me: Starkiller base destroyed the New Republic capital and he gets his sense of duty back to help stop it. Besides, with that kind of weapon around there's nowhere to run - the First Order would be unstoppable.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by Mighty Max

Don't forget, the opening crawl was completely wasted.
Every paragraph was about Luke missing.
Then the entire rest of the movie was about Luke missing.

The crawl could have been used much better, obviously, I'm not a writer, but it could have been better had it leaned more this way:

Jedi Knight (Master?) Luke Skywalker has been missing for 30 years?...
During this time, the New Republic has faced many new challenges.
Chief among them are/is a new and upcoming Imperial faction known as the New Order. Led by Kylo Ren, a fallen Jedi, they have taken over a handful of star systems. The New Republic, wary of entering into a new war, has fallen prey to it's own complacency and from this, a new rebellion was given life, head up by Leia Skywalker-Organa-Solo.
Leia has dispatched a trusted Republic pilot to the far reaches of space to aid in a quest to find her missing brother and help establish peace once more in the Galaxy/Universe...

Galaxy and Universe are interchanged between each movie's crawl. I forget where we ended up before this one...

THAT or something similar would have been a major improvment in setting up the movie considering the 30 year gap between Jedi and Awakens. We needed some sort of backstory instead of getting thrown into it and asking questions and only finding out towards the end or online or in other media. A little bit goes a long way. If one has to constantly question everything and everyone then the movie failed. it "takes you out of it."

A movie is supposed to immerse you in it, not distract you from itself.

Where do you get the missing for 30 years from?

The opening crawl from ANH makes no mention of Obi Wan, or what a Jedi is or what happened to all the Jedi, how the rebellion came about in the twenty years since the formation of the Empire, or how that came about . We got no back-story.

The crawl in TFA serves the same purpose. Luke is the Maguffin (although he of course means more than that to the fans). We know the resistance is looking for Luke. We know the FO are out to stop them. We are introduced to Kylo Ren who is supposed to be doing that job for them, but we slowly learn that he is after Luke himself.

[ChipmunksDad]

Originally Posted by Arawn

Though technically unconfirmed in TESB, I thought it was pretty clear. I had no idea some people were seriously thinking "Vader was just lying". Thank Jebus there was no internet back then.

Fast forward to ROTS and Lucas wimps out on a similar plot point, allowing the "Oh, I don't buy that, it's just a lie" position to be completely valid.



Good thing you can't find anything like that on Tatooine!



By the same token, Vader's not trying to kill Luke in TESB.



She fits neither of those. Her conversation with Maz makes no sense if she's Luke's daughter.

Which is why she's Ben/Ren's sister who was hidden away to protect her when Luke failed. I think something was left out of TFA between her and Leia, maybe even ended up on the editing room floor.

[ChipmunksDad]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But we didn't see Finn come out and kill a load of villagers before having his conversion, did we? He starts off questioning his path and doesn't end the film in a vastly different headspace, I'm still a bit baffled by him being so insistent that he wanted to leave them in Maz' cantina castle and then he just kinda joins up with them again. I can clearly see that his farewell bit with Rey in the castle is a reshot scene and I think they just didn't know what to do with him. As for Kylo, he starts it by killing people like a mofo and ends it by killing people (well, one person in particular) like a mofo. Sure, Rey gets all these mad skillz come to her (on top of what she already knows) but what made Luke's arc in SW so satisfying is that he learned to use his power thanks to the tutelage of others, whereas all Rey has to do is touch a light-saber and it all comes flooding back. I'm not saying that that can't happen in the SW universe, what I'm saying is that from a dramatic sense there's no build-up and no pay-off, she just gets good all of a sudden.

As for Empire: it didn't have to be self-contained, we knew it was following on from SW and we were damned well sure at the end that it would take another movie to finish this story. But I'm old-fashioned in that I like the start of any trilogy to set the scene, to lay out the rules of the universe and so on. Sure, TFA is Episode VII so the obvious comeback is "well, TFA doesn't have to be self-contained either then, does it ya genius?" but with a gap of 30 frickin' years it's just too jarring a jump for me, to leap straight back into this arena with only the opening crawl for context.

Yes, Star Wars and Phantom Menace after it are much more self-contained because both are the 'start' of Star Wars in their own way, the 1977 film in a real-world chronological sense and the 1999 film in a continuity sense. And also yes, a lot of first instalments in trilogies are so well thought out precisely because they had no inkling of further sequeldom (BTTF, The Matrix) but then there are others that were always intended to be part of a trilogy and still happen to be the best film of the bunch anyway (Fellowship of the Ring).

I'm just too old-fashioned in that respect I guess, but if the subsequent SW movies make this grand plan come alive and imbue TFA with a sense of context that I personally think is badly lacking then I will be the first person to eat some crow. But as it stands right now TFA feels like a hollow cipher of a movie to me, content to stand on the shoulders of giants whilst waiting for the story to really start. Ep VIII had better bring it, that's all I can say.

I can close the loop for you on Rey's raw abilities...at some point a Jedi came into existence without any training. Who found others who then honed their skills. With all of them apparently gone in TFA and the Jedi having a genetic trait, then wouldn't one come into existence on his or her own again? The genetic trait is simply any enabling trait. Those with it will choose (or are somehow chosen) for good or evil.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by ChipmunksDad

at some point a Jedi came into existence without any training. Who found others who then honed their skill

But that flawless logic violates "lore".

[Bluyoda]

So, first endless Prequel bashing, and now endless TFA talk in a thread about I-VI. Gotcha. Thx.

[bobbyh64]

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

So, first endless Prequel bashing, and now endless TFA talk in a thread about I-VI. Gotcha. Thx.

Well, what do you expect with 2,943 pages of posts?

[thegoat]

Originally Posted by Martoto

Where do you get the missing for 30 years from?

The opening crawl from ANH makes no mention of Obi Wan, or what a Jedi is or what happened to all the Jedi, how the rebellion came about in the twenty years since the formation of the Empire, or how that came about . We got no back-story.

The crawl in TFA serves the same purpose. Luke is the Maguffin (although he of course means more than that to the fans). We know the resistance is looking for Luke. We know the FO are out to stop them. We are introduced to Kylo Ren who is supposed to be doing that job for them, but we slowly learn that he is after Luke himself.

No, but Obi-wan explains the Jedi and Empire backstory pretty clearly and early in the film. The opening crawl lets us know that there is an evil Empire and a heroic Rebellion, which is all you need to jump into the story, whether your watching Star Wars first or following Revenge of the Sith. Kenobi then fills in the blanks later. It would have been helpful for Han to serve a similar role, giving a brief mention of how things turned back to war after the Empire fell. The problem with focusing everything on Luke early on is that there is no payoff by the end of this film. This story ultimately centers on the military conflict despite having everything in the setup be about finding Luke.

[seannyd]

What's interesting to me is how I can find almost all of the arguments valid to some degree and yet still unabashedly love Episode VII.

When I first discovered Star Wars as a pre-teen in the late 90s, I don't think I had the emotional maturity to really let a lot of it sink in, so when I watch Force Awakens and Rey force-pulls the lightsaber to her at the end and the Force theme plays, I get chills every time. I don't know what it is but that moment just works for me.

Even the prequels, I feel like they all offer SOMETHING. I'm glad they were made - wish they were made slightly differently, but even if the whole is worth less than the sum of their parts, there's still some cool stuff to offer.

As for people thinking that Rey is Luke's daughter - I admit that I was wondering that myself but now I think it's essentially impossible. VERY MINOR BLOODLINE SPOILERS FOLLOW

[Show spoiler]"Bloodline" is set less than 10 years prior to Force Awakens. I think like 6 years or so. Ben is still training with Luke and there's no mention of Rey. It makes zero sense if Rey is Luke's daughter given the age Rey was dropped off on Jakku unless Luke literally didn't know about her which seems very unlikely.

Personally, I'm just bummed that it doesn't seem like we're gonna be getting that rumored 3D re-release of the prequel trilogy. LET ME HAVE IT, LUCASFILM. I WANT TO SEE Revenge of the Sith in 3D!

[Scarface32]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

It does work as a self sustained story as much as Empire did. Why the double standard?

Empire wasn't self sustained, it left many questions such as "what will happen to Han Solo now?" It needed the next movie to answer those questions.

[thegoat]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

It's pretty obvious to me: Starkiller base destroyed the New Republic capital and he gets his sense of duty back to help stop it. Besides, with that kind of weapon around there's nowhere to run - the First Order would be unstoppable.

I felt differently. I think his motivation was more personal: Rescuing Rey. He even lies and jeapordizes the attack on the base just for the chance tl save her. I don't think he cares at all about the galactic conflict and wants to get as far away from it as possible, but he'd risk his life to protect his only friends. Same reason he was willing to bail at the cantina but stayed around to fight when the Order showed up

[Scarface32]

Originally Posted by Mighty Max

Led by Kylo Ren, a fallen Jedi, they have taken over a handful of star systems.

If they added that, it would be a spoiler. Then you'd know before the movie even started that Luke trained him, since you must be trained by a Jedi in order to become a Jedi.

[seannyd]

Originally Posted by thegoat

I felt differently. I think his motivation was more personal: Rescuing Rey. He even lies and jeapordizes the attack on the base just for the chance tl save her. I don't think he cares at all about the galactic conflict and wants to get as far away from it as possible, but he'd risk his life to protect his only friends. Same reason he was willing to bail at the cantina but stayed around to fight when the Order showed up

That whole cantina sequence didn't work for me. It's like the movie went into fast forward at that point trying to cover a whole bunch of a plot points in order to set things up for the finale. The only sequence of the movie that felt completely inorganic and pulled me out of the movie. It's very disjointed. I've come to terms with it since my first viewing but it almost completely derailed the entire movie for me at first.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Martoto

Where do you get the missing for 30 years from?

The opening crawl from ANH makes no mention of Obi Wan, or what a Jedi is or what happened to all the Jedi, how the rebellion came about in the twenty years since the formation of the Empire, or how that came about . We got no back-story.

The crawl in TFA serves the same purpose. Luke is the Maguffin (although he of course means more than that to the fans). We know the resistance is looking for Luke. We know the FO are out to stop them. We are introduced to Kylo Ren who is supposed to be doing that job for them, but we slowly learn that he is after Luke himself.

But the key thing is that the movie should then fill you in on the state of play as it progresses, Star Wars makes several mentions of the Senate, the Emperor, Luke's parentage (what it was assumed to be at that time, anyway ), Obi-Wan's beef with Vader and so on.

So I'm not talking about the crawl like it's SUPPOSED to be filling in all the gaps because it's not meant to do that, it's meant to set the scene and let the movie take up the slack - but TFA doesn't do this, it mentions stuff like the Republic supporting the Resistance and Luke having disappeared but there's next to nothing about how and why those things happened in the film itself! It's like the crawl is practically the ONLY thing they provided for backstory, when that's not what it's there for.

Sure, we then could say "but we know that Kylo destroyed Luke's school and Luke buggered off" but how/why did that happen? What event set Kylo off down the dark path? What event triggered his final conversion? How come Luke wasn't able to protect his school from this jumped-up little Vader wannabe? Did he have help from the First Order? What will I be having for dinner tonight? All of these questions (and so many more) are left hanging that it feels like there's a movie missing to me.

In a way it's a pity that this SW universe has grown so dense (either that or scriptwriting just ain't what it used to be) that people aren't willing or aren't able to create a first trilogy instalment that's able to tell its own story AND properly establish what's gone before. Hell, the Phantom Menace was almost TOO self-contained because it was so detached from what followed, I've said before that it feels more like A Star Wars Story offshoot than it does a proper episode of the saga.

But then along comes TFA and it does the opposite, it provides the thinnest gruel in terms of story and just expects everyone to be gagging to find out what happens next. Personally (again, me being very old-fashioned here) I feel that movies should be more than just palate cleansers, especially when they're part of an ongoing saga like this. The original Star Wars provided the best balance between all these aspects, mainly because it HAD to, but that still doesn't change the wonderful balance that the movie has between building its own universe and telling its own story. TFA just goes "**** it, the universe is built already", but then perhaps this came from the movie's own unique set of circumstances where they junked Lucas' main ideas and came up with their own in just three months? They simply didn't have time for anything grander than an Ep IV/V mash-up.

I know Ernest keeps saying over and over that there's a grand plan here, but that they whipped up this multi-movie arc in just a few months makes me feel mightily nervous that they're just going to repeat Lucas' storytelling failings with the prequels: bashing out films that don't follow up on the multiple threads that were left dangling and leaving it to all the ancillary media to fill in the many, many, many gaps that were left behind.

Ah well, it is what it is I suppose. The Star Wars apple might not have fallen far from the Lucas tree after all.