Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by CrowFan

It's interesting to see that after all the "member berries" have settled, TFA isn't the great film everyone thought it was (generally speaking). This was my experience with it too. Loved it the first time, but it gets harder and harder to get through with each new viewing.

My ranking:

Empire
Revenge
Hope
Jedi
Clones
TFA
Phantom Menace

Completely disagree. It's a pilot to set-up everything coming after, and a film made from the heart and for the heart. To each their own, but history is going to be kind to that movie.

[CrowFan]

Originally Posted by JasonHensley

I don't think I'd classify that under generally speaking. It's more like delusional speaking.

Ok maybe "generally speaking" is stretching it too far. I'm only speaking from small trends I've seen regarding this movie. Don't get me wrong...there are still some really great aspects of this one (Rey for example). It's just not as good for me on repeat viewings.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Anakin is the fallen angel of the Saga. There's only one of the original six films where we don't see him outright murder people (he's more passive in Jedi, I suppose).

You could say doesn't kill anyone directly in Menace...blowing up the Droid Control Ship and the few live Neimoidian crew by destroying the main reactor was an accident.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

You could say doesn't kill anyone directly in Menace...blowing up the Droid Control Ship and the few live Neimoidian crew by destroying the main reactor was an accident.

You're right, but unless my memory is failing me, he kinda just sits back and lets the Death Star kill people in Jedi as a bargaining chip trying to get Luke to go bad like he did. He doesn't kill anyone with his own hands, more like by association. Luke directly kills more people in Jedi than Vader does.

[TM2-Megatron]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

It's crazy thinking that in another decade or so, it's very possible that most people will only have seen the special editions and if by chance they come across the originals, they will prefer the special editions and just think of the originals as rough drafts.

Hopefully Disney gets the originals released on Blu-Ray at some point so that doesn't occur.

While I've got no problems with people preferring the revised editions or prequels, personally I can't stand any of it and won't buy the original trilogy again (last time was on VHS) until it's released without the SE changes. Those versions should at least be out there in HD quality for people who prefer them.

As far as the prequels go, while I kind of enjoyed them as a kid, I find them unwatchable today for all the reasons highlighted in the Plinkett reviews. They'll never have a place on my shelf.

[Arawn]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

If it's "nonsense" it's because you've misunderstood or deliberately misstated what I said.

I misrepresented nothing, it's just that what you said was bullshit. You blamed the idea that the complete saga leads to a certain climax on revisionism.

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

Even he admitted that the original "Return of the Jedi" was about Luke, and that in the six-film context it was about Anakin. That's a revision.

That's great, but that wasn't the thing you originally claimed was a revision.

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

If Luke isn't the hero

As I said, Luke is the hero of the OT. But he's hardly the hero of the PT, not even being born until the end of III, so it doesn't exactly make sense to call him the hero of the saga.

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

then who is the hero?

Who is the hero of The Silmarillion?

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

He's a hero to my generation.

Well, that's nice.

[GrouchoFan]

The true hero of the saga is...John Williams!

[Scarface32]

Originally Posted by Arawn

Who is the hero

The Force is the hero. It's also the villain. The Force is both because it's all around us. It binds the galaxy together. It's in all living things.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Arawn

You didn't say anything about who the hero was. You said that the moment in question was supposed to be the climactic moment of the saga "if Lucas' plot revisionism is to be believed". Except that's nonsense. It is the climactic moment of the saga with or without the prequels.

Wellllll, sort of. But also sort of not.

Prior to the prequels, Vader's change of heart was not the climax of the trilogy. Prior to the prequels, Luke defeating Vader and refusing to join the Emperor was the climax. Prior to the prequels, Vader's change of heart was more a deus ex machina-ish way of getting Luke off Mount Doom.

I mean, sure, even at the time, Vader's so-called redemption was definitely more than a simple plot device. Climactic or not, it was a fairly significant plot development.

But it is a bit revisionist to say that it was the moment to which the entire OT was building all along.

[Arawn]

Originally Posted by Scarface32

The Force is the hero. It's also the villain.

In regard to the dark side of the Force, the story meeting transcripts suggest that although one can't see it, it should be the real villain of the story.
- SW: The Annotated Screenplays

Originally Posted by octagon

Prior to the prequels, Vader's change of heart was more a deus ex machina-ish way of getting Luke off Mount Doom.

"There is still good in him."

"Because there is good in him. I've felt it."

"It is the name of your true self, you've only forgotten. I know there is still good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully."

"I feel the good in you, the conflict."

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Arawn

"There is still good in him."

"Because there is good in him. I've felt it."

"It is the name of your true self, you've only forgotten. I know there is still good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully."

"I feel the good in you, the conflict."

I'm not entirely sure what your point is.

If you're saying Vader's so-called redemption was more than a simple plot device then yeah, I would have to agree.

But if you're suggesting that this dialogue is evidence that Vader's struggle with the dark side was the central conflict of the OT all along then no, I'm still not seeing it.

It wasn't until decades later that the OT became all about Vader and his angst.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Arawn

As I said, Luke is the hero of the OT. But he's hardly the hero of the PT, not even being born until the end of III, so it doesn't exactly make sense to call him the hero of the saga.

Luke is the hero of the saga. The PT may be *about* Anakin, but he sure as hell ain't a hero. It's the story of a gifted man who turns into a MASS MURDERER to save the life of his secret hidden spouse. And even AFTER HE KILLS HER, he still hangs back and watches MASS MURDER and kills people in his employ like a middle manager at a Wal-Mart. If anyone is the hero of the PT, it's Obi-Wan. If anyone is the hero of the saga, it's Luke.

[Dotpattern]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

even AFTER HE KILLS HER

Anakin didn't kill Padme.

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

kills people in his employ like a middle manager at a Wal-Mart.

Damn. Wal-Mart is worse than I ever thought. Had no idea middle managers were killing their employees.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Dotpattern

Damn. Wal-Mart is worse than I ever thought. Had no idea middle managers were killing their employees.

It's a slaughterhouse. Don't go in the back after two a.m....

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Dotpattern

Anakin didn't kill Padme.



Damn. Wal-Mart is worse than I ever thought. Had no idea middle managers were killing their employees.

They don't literally kill their employees. They just sap their will to live.

[Trekkie313]

I'm okay with many of the changes done in 1997, barring the silly neck movement and Jedi Rocks. However they screwed the pooch with the 2004 Jabba.

He looks like a PS1 cutscene compared to the original, not to mention he's colored wrong. Can't believe they couldn't just make a new one that looks seamless, they're ILM.

[Mighty Max]

While Luke is the hero of A New Hope, he really didn't do much heroing in The Empire Strikes Back or Return of the Jedi.
He had to be saved by Leia and Lando in Empire
His contribution in Jedi was levitating Threepio.
Palpatine would have died, as would have Vader had Luke not gone to Endor.

[Trekkie313]

Originally Posted by Mighty Max

While Luke is the hero of A New Hope, he really didn't do much heroing in The Empire Strikes Back or Return of the Jedi.
He had to be saved by Leia and Lando in Empire
His contribution in Jedi was levitating Threepio.
Palpatine would have died, as would have Vader had Luke not gone to Endor.

The Rebels definitely would've attempted a rescue of their own to get Han back if Luke hadn't shown up. Given their track record in the movie, it wouldn't have ended well.

Luke did plenty in Empire, like lead the Snowspeeder assault.

[Poya]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Luke is the hero of the saga. The PT may be *about* Anakin, but he sure as hell ain't a hero. It's the story of a gifted man who turns into a MASS MURDERER to save the life of his secret hidden spouse. And even AFTER HE KILLS HER, he still hangs back and watches MASS MURDER and kills people in his employ like a middle manager at a Wal-Mart. If anyone is the hero of the PT, it's Obi-Wan. If anyone is the hero of the saga, it's Luke.

This 100%. I hope to God Disney finds a way to retcon these films. They don't seem to care about it. After all, the new film, outside of saying Sith, doesn't reference the films whatsoever. I hope Rogue One follows suit.

[bobbyh64]

Originally Posted by Mighty Max

While Luke is the hero of A New Hope, he really didn't do much heroing in The Empire Strikes Back or Return of the Jedi.
He had to be saved by Leia and Lando in Empire
His contribution in Jedi was levitating Threepio.
Palpatine would have died, as would have Vader had Luke not gone to Endor.

Why would Palpatine and Vader have died?