Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by Martoto

It's nowhere near as bad as I had first felt it was.

I'm not as discontented as I had imagined I should be about it.

Still long for the originals to be properly restored though. Don't misunderstand me.

I agree. That alteration was the last straw for me and kept me from buying the Blu-Ray set for years until I caved and picked up the newer steelbook reissues.

Turns out, the moment wasn't as a bad and cringey as I was expecting. It's definitely BETTER the way it was done originally, but its a lot lower on my list of bad revisions compared to the worst offenders in all three films (Han/Greedo, Jedi Rocks, Hayden Ghost, Jango Fett redub, CGI Jabba scene, etc.)

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

The "noooooo" is honestly super low on my list of disliked changes. It's definitely better silent, but I never really hated it. When I made the wife finally watch the trilogy before Force Awakens came out she actually said that no was one of her favorite moments.

Someone disagrees with me?!?

[darkness2918]

Ive said it before but I guess since I didn't grow up with the originals the changes don't bother me at all. Ive seen the SE's way more times so I'm used to them by now while I haven't seen the originals since I was a kid in the VHS days. Empire is still my favorite of the entire series but I rank the prequels above all the other entries, this is my ranking:

Empire Strikes Back
Revenge of the Sith
Attack of the Clones
Phantom Menace
A New Hope
Return of the Jedi
The Force Awakens

Jar Jar aside I enjoy the prequel trilogy a lot.

[bobbyh64]

It's crazy thinking that in another decade or so, it's very possible that most people will only have seen the special editions and if by chance they come across the originals, they will prefer the special editions and just think of the originals as rough drafts.

[darkness2918]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

It's crazy thinking that in another decade or so, it's very possible that most people will only have seen the special editions and if by chance they come across the originals, they will prefer the special editions and just think of the originals as rough drafts.

That's basically me. I barley remember the originals from when I was kid & would watch the VHS tapes with my dad. From DVD onward ive only seen the SE's so that's how my mind remembers them now. My wife has never seen the originals so the SE's are all she knows & she likes them.

[Blu-21]

Originally Posted by Bobbyjoe766

Agreed.The original sounds the best.
I thought the 1997 SE voice was okay.It sounded like they treated the original Wingreen vocals to make it sound like Boba was speaking through a helmet microphone?
2004 onwards-the Temura Morrison voice doesn't sound as menacing.
I didn't like the edited version of Boba's theme as Han is being loaded into SLAVE-1.

Would be interested to hear the 1981 version of Boba and compare it to the 1997 SE version.

[MacEachaidh]

Originally Posted by Bobbyjoe766

Agreed.The original sounds the best.

My take on it -- sorry if I get wordy, but I'm trying to find ways of expressing what I mean -- is that the original Fett sounds melodramatic-snarly, out of proportion with the context of his scenes. Was Fett meant to sound like a rogue bad-guy, uncowed by Vader? It always confused me then that Vader didn't put him in his place, the way we were shown him doing to so many others he deemed insubordinate or simply incompetent. The original line readings didn't work for me, given that Fett's surliness was just put there and then we were supposed not to think about it being on the table. Morrison's readings worked fine, though I agree that losing the enclosed-microphone metallic timbre was a pity.

But I think all that is secondary to the gained advantage of having accent continuity for Fett, given the casting of Fett and his son in the earlier films.

Originally Posted by Arawn

It's not an issue of revisionism. This is the climactic moment of what was the final movie in the series. At a time when the complete saga could be defined to be just IV-VI it was the moment the saga was leading to. When you add the prequels and thus make the "complete saga" I-VI, it's still the moment the saga has been leading to.

Well yeah, I think it is revisionism, if only in the fact that, when we only had three films, the putative hero of the saga was Luke, not Anakin; and, if Lucas' ever-shifting comments are anything to go by, even the title of Episode VI originally referred to Luke, although now that the saga is "complete", we're supposed to think it applies to Li'l Ani. It does change the context of Vader's actions at the end.

[Bobbyjoe766]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

It's crazy thinking that in another decade or so, it's very possible that most people will only have seen the special editions and if by chance they come across the originals, they will prefer the special editions and just think of the originals as rough drafts.

Just what Mr Lucas wants!

[Bobbyjoe766]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

My take on it -- sorry if I get wordy, but I'm trying to find ways of expressing what I mean -- is that the original Fett sounds melodramatic-snarly, out of proportion with the context of his scenes. Was Fett meant to sound like a rogue bad-guy, uncowed by Vader? It always confused me then that Vader didn't put him in his place, the way we were shown him doing to so many others he deemed insubordinate or simply incompetent. The original line readings didn't work for me, given that Fett's surliness was just put there and then we were supposed not to think about it being on the table. Morrison's readings worked fine, though I agree that losing the enclosed-microphone metallic timbre was a pity.

But I think all that is secondary to the gained advantage of having accent continuity for Fett, given the casting of Fett and his son in the earlier films.

I never understood why it was so important to make Boba sound like his late father.

Boba could have suffered an injury to his vocal cords-giving him his own distinct voice.

I found T.Morrison's delivery of the lines to be lifeless.His voice didn't fit the image as well as J.Wingreen's did.Just my opinion.

[MacEachaidh]

Originally Posted by Bobbyjoe766

Boba could have suffered an injury to his vocal cords-giving him his own distinct voice.

Mmm, you could imagine similar things to explain the unrevised visual changes to the Emperor and to Anakin himself. For my own part, I'm not at all a fan of having to retrofit imagined events for a character from outside a film to make sense of events within the film. The voice continuity has a purpose there.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by Bobbyjoe766

I never understood why it was so important to make Boba sound like his late father.

Boba could have suffered an injury to his vocal cords-giving him his own distinct voice.

I found T.Morrison's delivery of the lines to be lifeless.His voice didn't fit the image as well as J.Wingreen's did.Just my opinion.

It became important when Boba was rectconned as a clone of Jango.

[Petey Parker]

Originally Posted by Bobbyjoe766

Just what Mr Lucas wants!

[Mighty Max]

Too bad they didn't adr Jason over Temura in Attack of the Clones.
Temura while decent, just has bad delivery! And nearly no emotion.

[Bobbyjoe766]

Originally Posted by Martoto

It became important when Boba was rectconned as a clone of Jango.

The original voice could have remained and explained away as some sort of injury Boba suffered on one of his many adventures.This wouldn't change the fact he was a clone of his father.

[Arawn]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

Well yeah, I think it is revisionism, if only in the fact that, when we only had three films, the putative hero of the saga was Luke, not Anakin

You didn't say anything about who the hero was. You said that the moment in question was supposed to be the climactic moment of the saga "if Lucas' plot revisionism is to be believed". Except that's nonsense. It is the climactic moment of the saga with or without the prequels.

( Nor is the issue of the "hero of the saga" a case of "revisionism". Luke was never going to be the hero of Episodes I-III. Thus if you add the prequels Luke is not the "hero of the saga" anymore, only the hero of half of it. That's not revisionism, it's the inescapable fact of the matter. )

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Arawn

You didn't say anything about who the hero was. You said that the moment in question was supposed to be the climactic momemt of the saga "if Lucas' plot revisionism is to be believed". Except that's nonsense. It is the climactic moment of the saga with or without the prequels.

( Nor is the issue of the "hero of the saga" a case of "revisionism". Luke was never going to be the hero of Episodes I-III. Thus if you add the prequels Luke is not the "hero of the saga" anymore, only the hero of half of it. That's not revisionism, it's the inescapable fact of the matter. )

Anakin is the fallen angel of the Saga. There's only one of the original six films where we don't see him outright murder people (he's more passive in Jedi, I suppose). If Luke isn't the hero, whose love for his father re-awakens his father's love -- then who is the hero? He's a hero to my generation.

[MacEachaidh]

Originally Posted by Arawn

Except that's nonsense. It is the climactic moment of the saga with or without the prequels.

If it's "nonsense" it's because you've misunderstood or deliberately misstated what I said. I said the "entire saga", as Lucas had revised it. Even he admitted that the original "Return of the Jedi" was about Luke, and that in the six-film context it was about Anakin. That's a revision.

I don't much care, either way; the point of mentioning it here is that it changes the nature of that moment at the end of "Jedi" -- okay, so it changes. A lot of things in the OT did with Lucas' revisions -- but the addition of the "NOOOOooooooo!!" makes it prosaic and shallow, and I for one think that's a pity.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

A lot of things in the OT did with Lucas' revisions -- but the addition of the "NOOOOooooooo!!" makes it prosaic and shallow, and I for one think that's a pity.

I don't think it makes it shallow. In its original form, before the prequels, Vader's non verbal defiance presented a shocking volt face for the audience. In the same way that the inhuman masked monolith suddenly providing Luke with a heartfelt admission of their relationship to each other was a complete mind-bender.

I'm not sure that Vader's choice, stupendous though it was in 1983, necessarily carries the same impact now as it did then. I think that the momentous nature of his actions is not diminished, while the expression that his hitherto secret thoughts have now been given remains authentic to the emotion the audience inferred in the moments immediately after he finally acquiesces to Luke's pleas.

In the context of Vader's back-story, the mute version retains a sense of indecision and uncertainty that was completely relevant in 83, because the audience are wondering what's going to happen next. Now though, the way his decision is feathered in it appropriately enhances his struggle to accept that he can turn back. In its mute form, it can now be seen as a little arbitrary. Just a little. But it still works thanks to the later scenes of his and Luke's.

Either form doesn't represent a massive difference, to me. But I think the vocalised turn ultimately does serve the six movie saga better than the mute form. By a hair.

Works with. Works without. The only way it could come across as shallow is if one is preoccupied with Vader's original "Noooo" from ROTS, which is completely undermined by the crude pantomime it accompanies in what should have been a tragic, fearful moment rather than a cringeworthy one.

I think I read somewhere too that Lucas decided to drop Vader reaching out to Luke at the beginning of the film in order not to tip the audience too much that Vader had strong ulterior or independent motives to the Emperor, in order to make it more of a repeat of the shock of ESB's ending. I believe that it could still have been a surprise. Once the Emperor has his apprentice and would-be apprentice in his throne room, Luke's father's impotence in resisting his master would still have been apparent and the prospect of Vader standing up for himself and his son would still have seemed unlikely at that point, no matter what Vader said between only himself and Luke.

The Endor platform meeting would still come across as Vader's disappointment that he cannot turn Luke by himself, which he believes must be necessary for Luke to destroy the Emperor or help Vader to do so.

[CrowFan]

Originally Posted by darkness2918

Ive said it before but I guess since I didn't grow up with the originals the changes don't bother me at all. Ive seen the SE's way more times so I'm used to them by now while I haven't seen the originals since I was a kid in the VHS days. Empire is still my favorite of the entire series but I rank the prequels above all the other entries, this is my ranking:

Empire Strikes Back
Revenge of the Sith
Attack of the Clones
Phantom Menace
A New Hope
Return of the Jedi
The Force Awakens

Jar Jar aside I enjoy the prequel trilogy a lot.

It's interesting to see that after all the "member berries" have settled, TFA isn't the great film everyone thought it was (generally speaking). This was my experience with it too. Loved it the first time, but it gets harder and harder to get through with each new viewing.

My ranking:

Empire
Revenge
Hope
Jedi
Clones
TFA
Phantom Menace

[JasonHensley]

Originally Posted by CrowFan

It's interesting to see that after all the "member berries" have settled, TFA isn't the great film everyone thought it was (generally speaking). This was my experience with it too. Loved it the first time, but it gets harder and harder to get through with each new viewing.

My ranking:

Empire
Revenge
Hope
Jedi
Clones
TFA
Phantom Menace

I don't think I'd classify that under generally speaking. It's more like delusional speaking.