Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[danny_boy]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Quite right, and it's a point seemingly lost on those who are calling out Lucas for shooting Clones and Sith in HD. Lowry even mentioned this problem when the films got cleaned up at HD quality for the 2004 DVDs, and if it's obvious in HD then 2K or above will be mightily unforgiving.

As for the issue of 'remastering' the original movies with better compositing, I say no. Dirt and scratch removal is one thing, but the effects should be left as they are. You want it unaltered at high quality, fine, but you can't have your cake and eat it.

Don't get me wrongo, I'd love to have a proper archival edition. But it'd be great if they put just as much emphasis on sound as well as picture, preserving each of the original release mixes (mono, Dolby Stereo, 70mm 6-track mag) as well as the 'final' home video mixes done for the Definitive Collection LDs (which still sound absolutely STUNNING and piss all over the DVDs from a great height).


Heh. I'd love to see a Plinkett-style dissection of the OT, as there are plenty of gems to be uncovered. The first film alone has some MASSIVE plot holes which people either ignore (funny how they can't do that with the PT) or simply can't see through their rose-tinted memories, but whatever.

Agreed.

This is a screen shot from a screening of an original 1977 technicolour print shown at the senator theater in Baltimore last summer.

Now here is a scene which features optical compositing.

And whilst it is aesthetically beautiful,you can see the grain!

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by IndefinentBlu

First off there was the massing army of clone troopers plus all of the clones that where on Kamino. Palpatine weakened the jedi from within he did not attack the jedi head on as so many failed sith before him have done. He planned this sham of a war to weaken their numbers so when the time came he would strike. He knew what he was doing plus it could be assumed that not all jedi survived and, besides Vader went on a jedi killing spree during the time between EP3 and EP4.

All that really doesn't matter. It doesn't change the fact that Ben & Yoda were better choices than Luke. Ben & Yoda had the clones to deal with, Luke had Stromtroopers. Ben & Yoda would have at least had each other as back up. Luke had noone. Sure, you could argue that Luke had the Rebel Alliance. But in the end, it was Luke, Vader & Palpatine by themselves. The Rebel Alliance didn't really get Luke there. Vader brought Luke to Palpatine. The Rebels were focused on the Empire as a whole. The Vader, Palpatine & Luke issue was a personal one. As far as one on one confrontations go, waiting for Luke was the worst choice. Remember, Luke technically never won a confrontation. Vader beat him on Cloud City. Had Vader not turned on Palpatine, Luke would have been killed at Palpatine's hand aboard the second Death Star. The Empire was defeated by the Rebellion. Looking at it that way, had the timing not worked the way it did, the Rebellion would have killed Luke along with blowing up the Death Star. In all reality, Luke had little to do with anything other than Vader's return to the good side. And that came about by his getting beat up so bad. Vader's return was not in Ben & Yoda's plan (As I stated before, it was completely out of the question). So technically, Ben & Yoda's plan failed. Which is my point.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It amazes me how people can argue so vociferously for unaltered visuals but just don't give a **** about the sound. No doubt folks would want a 5.1 mix to go with their unaltered visuals, never mind the fact that the OT didn't get conventional 5.1 until the dreaded 1997 SE's.

I'm not a big fan of remixing older sources either. For the most part things have gone fairly smoothly on that front. Most of the tinkering had been pretty unobtrusive. Psycho's 5.1 track isn't at all distracting, for instance.

But sooner or later somebody is going to take the 'more channels is better' mantra and screw something up royally.

[Jimmy Smith]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Heh. I'd love to see a Plinkett-style dissection of the OT, as there are plenty of gems to be uncovered. The first film alone has some MASSIVE plot holes which people either ignore (funny how they can't do that with the PT) or simply can't see through their rose-tinted memories, but whatever.

One thing about Plinkett is he doesn't realize many of the flaws he points out in the prequels can be found in the original trilogy.

For example

1. Plinkett complains about the droids being ineffective. Well the stormtroopers in the original trilogy were horrible shots even after Obi-Wan describes them as precise why is this not a problem.

2. Why does he call Anakins ability to survive a long fall as cartoonish but not Lukes ability to survive a long fall at Bespin.

3. Why does he critize The Phantom Menace for having a slow opening but not The Empire Strikes Back for having a similar slow opening.

Again I liked Plinketts reviews but often times he was too nitpicky

[octagon]

Originally Posted by IndefinentBlu

You think that is bad wait till about christmas time when they release individual digibook versions of the trilogies.

I don't think it's bad.

I've never been one of those people who get outraged over 'double dipping'.

As a rule more options are better than fewer.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

I´m not a big fan of multiple versions of one movie being released at the same time ...it´s like the filmmaker can´t decide on which version of his own movie is the best or official one to him. I don´t see the point. If a filmmaker manages to make the final cut why should the subsequent versions be released? Audiences should not be able to decide between versions.
In the case of Star Wars especially it doesn´t really make sense to me. There is no extended and theatrical cut but an abandoned and an almost finished cut.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then.

I feel that once a substatial new version of a movie is released (whether it be an original theatrical release, extended cut, directors cut, special edition, etc), that each version to continued to be made available going forward. At least within reason.

Frankly, in addition to the UOT (and with the UOT still being the bigger priority), I do feel that even the 1997 theatrical Special Editions should be released as they existed at that time... crappy CGI Jabba and all. That was a major event and milestone in celebrating the 20th anniversary of the OT, and should be properly preserved IMO. (depending on how substatially different the newest versions are from the 2004 editions, it may not be necessary to preserve the 2004 editions as they existed, especially since there are many issues with them that many people consider to be technical errors rather than artistic decisions).


Besides, by the sheer existence of the original versions in any format regardless of quality (they can still be purchased on DVD right now in their non-anamorphic form), there's already more than 1 version to choose from. Even when/if those DVDs permanently go out of print, they will still be "out there" for people to watch.

The reality is that his supposed precious "artistic vision" is already comprimised by the sheer fact that the UOT and any previous other versions ever existed. Too many people are aware of them. This information isn't going to just go away.


Even the logic behind the idea that if he never releases them again that they will just fade into obscurity and everyone will only know the newest versions doesn't completely hold up. While Star Wars has enjoyed a very extended shelf life compared to most average movies, eventually, regardless of how long it takes, these movies will likely more or less fade off into obscurity and will become the fodder for film historians and enthusiasts who take a lot of interest in movies in their historical context.

Do you really think that the average young-to-middle-aged movie goer today cares about such highly praised classics as Citizen Kane or Gone With the Wind? I'm not knocking these movies, because they are classics in many respects, but they are also old and outdated in many ways.

Star Wars will likely eventually fade into a similar light. Unless Lucas allows other people to make more movies and do things with the property long after he passes on, the movies and the franchise as a whole will eventually fade away and just become part of cinema history.

And the people who actually care about and study this history will know of the different versions and will likely recognize the originals as having the most historical significance. The idea that eventually the UOT will fade away and that most everyone will only care about the most updated version of th 6-part saga is a pipe dream. And even if it has a snowball's chance in hell of ever happening, it certainly won't be within Lucas's lifetime.

By the sheer fact that there was ever more than 1 version of Star Wars shown to the public (and more specifically, any version that Lucas doesn't consider his 'ultimate' version), his supposed artistic vision is already unreconsilably comprimised. Any effort to cover that up and take attention away from that is futile and pointless. It just results in more and more people chanting a demand for the original versions. Being this beligerent about it is just self-defeating at the end of the day.

He may as well just come to terms with this and release (at minimum) both the originals and his newest versions. It's not like it requires and real "work" on his part anyway. I'm sure there are many other well-qualified people who would be enthusiastic to supervise a restoration of the original versions and make sure justice is done to them if Lucas doesn't want to do the work himself.


And besides, your opinion on this isn't even solely based on the whole 'artistic rights' argument. Sure, that is part of the reason, but you said yourself in your post that you just aren't a fan of multiple versions being released at one time. So, that's just personal preference on your part. But the fact is that by having mulitple versions released, nothing is stopping you from watching whichever version it is that you would prefer to watch (or in other words the version that you think "should" be the only one released). So, it's kind of a silly stance to take in many ways, and is still a matter of personal preference on your part rather than this bigger artistic concept.

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

If you want to indulge yourselves in nostalgia, why do you demand the "old" versions on "Blu-Ray"? VHS is much more nostalgic experience...

By that logic, nobody who is 'nostalgic' for any old movies that they grew up watching on VHS should even bother buying them on DVD or Blu-Ray, regardless of whether or not those films are still in their "original versions" since their nostalgia for those movies stems from a time where they likely saw the movies on VHS over and over again.

Did you (the 'general you') grow up watching Disney movies on VHS and is your nostalgia for them what makes you interested in owning the Blu-Rays now? Well, you should just still watch them on VHS.

How about the Ninja Turtles movie collection.... or the recent release of 2 of the Ernest movies on Blu-Ray? Obviously nostalgia is going to be a major draw for many people buying those. But I guess they should be restricted to VHS as well. Heck, anyone who has any interest in any movie for even slightly nostalgic reasons should never ever buy them on Blu-Ray by this logic.

[Beta Man]

Originally Posted by danny_boy

Agreed.

This is a screen shot of a screening of an original 1977 technicolour print shown at the senator theater last summer.]

I don't know what I'm looking at there.... but it doesn't look like grain.... looks like small blurry "patches" not film grain.

What are the lines across Luke too? I'm willing to bet the original film elements are in better shape than that....

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by octagon

I'm not a big fan of remixing older sources either. For the most part things have gone fairly smoothly on that front. Most of the tinkering had been pretty unobtrusive. Psycho's 5.1 track isn't at all distracting, for instance.

But sooner or later somebody is going to take the 'more channels is better' mantra and screw something up royally.

I lasted all of five minutes into Psycho's 5.1 mix before switching to the dual-mono 2.0 track, which is presented in lush DTS-HD Master Audio on the UK Blu-ray. Heaven!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

I don't know what I'm looking at there.... but it doesn't look like grain.... looks like small blurry "patches" not film grain.

What are the lines across Luke too? I'm willing to bet the original film elements are in better shape than that....

The photo isn't the best, but it's still good enough to demonstrate how coarse the grain is on those opticals, which are the "patches" you're talking about.

[IndefinentBlu]

Originally Posted by octagon

I don't think it's bad.

I've never been one of those people who get outraged over 'double dipping'.

As a rule more options are better than fewer.

Neither have i.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yup, Han's a total puss by the time we get to Jedi.

Han was always a total puss. Shooting the worst bounty hunter in the Galaxy next to Boba Fett first or otherwise.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by IndefinentBlu

You think that is bad wait till about christmas time when they release individual digibook versions of the trilogies.

I would love that. Digibooks are awesome. But I really don't see it happening.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

By that logic, nobody who is 'nostalgic' for any old movies that they grew up watching on VHS should even bother buying them on DVD or Blu-Ray, regardless of whether or not those films are still in their "original versions" since their nostalgia for those movies stems from a time where they likely saw the movies on VHS over and over again.

Did you (the 'general you') grow up watching Disney movies on VHS and is your nostalgia for them what makes you interested in owning the Blu-Rays now? Well, you should just still watch them on VHS.

Well in my mind STAR WARS Experience is one of a kind in cinematic history and it depends greatly on the coherence of its 6 movies. The decision if or which versions should be released can only be made by people appreciate the 6 movies as a whole and equally. In following this goal and realizing GLs vision you may have to sacrifice your own, personal nostalgic experience in trade for the much greater experience of the complete saga!

STAR WARS doesn't belong to ONE generation but is experienced by each generation in its current form anew - may it be in cinemas or at home.

In the end I respect above everything else the opinion of the individual artists. Spielberg doesn't do "audio commentaries", David Lynch doesn't release "deleted scenes". I respect decisions of artists who made these movies we love so much in the first place...

[danny_boy]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

I don't know what I'm looking at there.... but it doesn't look like grain.... looks like small blurry "patches" not film grain.

What are the lines across Luke too? I'm willing to bet the original film elements are in better shape than that....

More here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEctWVF4J_w

and here:
http://savestarwars.com/technicoloribscreening.html

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Well in my mind STAR WARS Experience is one of a kind in cinematic history and it depends greatly on the coherence of its 6 movies. The decision if or which versions should be released can only be made by people appreciate the 6 movies as a whole and equally. In following this goal and realizing GLs vision you may have to sacrifice your own, personal nostalgic experience in trade for the much greater experience of the complete saga!

STAR WARS doesn't belong to ONE generation but is experienced by each generation in its current form anew - may it be in cinemas or at home.

In the end I respect above everything else the opinion of the individual artists. Spielberg doesn't do "audio commentaries", David Lynch doesn't release "deleted scenes". I respect decisions of artists who made these movies we love so much in the first place...

I Agree. I'm all for anything that makes the two trilogies fit together better. Be it story tweaks, visuals or whatever. Now that there's the chance to go back in and rework all of the films at once, for one cohesive release, I say do what needs to be done. That goes for either trilogy. Just don't screw it up this time.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

In the end I respect above everything else the opinion of the individual artists. Spielberg doesn't do "audio commentaries", David Lynch doesn't release "deleted scenes". I respect decisions of artists who made these movies we love so much in the first place...

Really. Does that mean you 'respect above everything' Peter Jackson's decision to release both the theatrical and extended cuts of LotR?

I only ask because you seemed a little critical of that decision earlier.

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then.

I feel that once a substatial new version of a movie is released (whether it be an original theatrical release, extended cut, directors cut, special edition, etc), that each version to continued to be made available going forward. At least within reason.

Frankly, in addition to the UOT (and with the UOT still being the bigger priority), I do feel that even the 1997 theatrical Special Editions should be released as they existed at that time... crappy CGI Jabba and all. That was a major event and milestone in celebrating the 20th anniversary of the OT, and should be properly preserved IMO. (depending on how substatially different the newest versions are from the 2004 editions, it may not be necessary to preserve the 2004 editions as they existed, especially since there are many issues with them that many people consider to be technical errors rather than artistic decisions).


Besides, by the sheer existence of the original versions in any format regardless of quality (they can still be purchased on DVD right now in their non-anamorphic form), there's already more than 1 version to choose from. Even when/if those DVDs permanently go out of print, they will still be "out there" for people to watch.

The reality is that his supposed precious "artistic vision" is already comprimised by the sheer fact that the UOT and any previous other versions ever existed. Too many people are aware of them. This information isn't going to just go away.


Even the logic behind the idea that if he never releases them again that they will just fade into obscurity and everyone will only know the newest versions doesn't completely hold up. While Star Wars has enjoyed a very extended shelf life compared to most average movies, eventually, regardless of how long it takes, these movies will likely more or less fade off into obscurity and will become the fodder for film historians and enthusiasts who take a lot of interest in movies in their historical context.

Do you really think that the average young-to-middle-aged movie goer today cares about such highly praised classics as Citizen Kane or Gone With the Wind? I'm not knocking these movies, because they are classics in many respects, but they are also old and outdated in many ways.

Star Wars will likely eventually fade into a similar light. Unless Lucas allows other people to make more movies and do things with the property long after he passes on, the movies and the franchise as a whole will eventually fade away and just become part of cinema history.

And the people who actually care about and study this history will know of the different versions and will likely recognize the originals as having the most historical significance. The idea that eventually the UOT will fade away and that most everyone will only care about the most updated version of th 6-part saga is a pipe dream. And even if it has a snowball's chance in hell of ever happening, it certainly won't be within Lucas's lifetime.

By the sheer fact that there was ever more than 1 version of Star Wars shown to the public (and more specifically, any version that Lucas doesn't consider his 'ultimate' version), his supposed artistic vision is already unreconsilably comprimised. Any effort to cover that up and take attention away from that is futile and pointless. It just results in more and more people chanting a demand for the original versions. Being this beligerent about it is just self-defeating at the end of the day.

He may as well just come to terms with this and release (at minimum) both the originals and his newest versions. It's not like it requires and real "work" on his part anyway. I'm sure there are many other well-qualified people who would be enthusiastic to supervise a restoration of the original versions and make sure justice is done to them if Lucas doesn't want to do the work himself.


And besides, your opinion on this isn't even solely based on the whole 'artistic rights' argument. Sure, that is part of the reason, but you said yourself in your post that you just aren't a fan of multiple versions being released at one time. So, that's just personal preference on your part. But the fact is that by having mulitple versions released, nothing is stopping you from watching whichever version it is that you would prefer to watch (or in other words the version that you think "should" be the only one released). So, it's kind of a silly stance to take in many ways, and is still a matter of personal preference on your part rather than this bigger artistic concept.

Let me make my point. If a filmmaker releases multiple versions of his movie and let the audiences decide what version they want to watch I´m fine with it... GL doesn´t intend to release the saga in multiple versions and that should be respected! It does not belong to the audience; it belongs to the artist. If he decides to change his work, he should be allowed to do so.

[kamphausd1]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

it depends greatly on the coherence of its 6 movies.

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

the much greater experience of the complete saga!

These are probably 2 of the most unintentionally hilarious quotes I've ever read in my life!

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Because it's historical, man. Tracking the progess of Star Wars' original sound is just as important to me as the picture. Yes, the 70mm spread would need to be reconfigured for home use but it really should be preserved somehow.

It amazes me how people can argue so vociferously for unaltered visuals but just don't give a **** about the sound. No doubt folks would want a 5.1 mix to go with their unaltered visuals, never mind the fact that the OT didn't get conventional 5.1 until the dreaded 1997 SE's.


Sure. But much of the CG work done over the last 25-odd years has been rendered at 2K, which is what makes me laugh so much when people start ragging on Lucas for building obsolescence into Episodes II and III. And maybe it's just me, but folk seem to talk about Lucas & HD like he's the only one who's nobbled his movies for future use. I wonder if they're as passionate about this issue in threads about certain films by Robert Rodriguez or Michael Mann?


Ah, but look at Jabba's reaction (2004 version). When Han treads on his tail, Jabba cocks his right fist as if he's about to smack Han in the mouth. But then Han starts sweet-talking Jabba, about paying him back with a little extra on top, and the Hutt relaxes, quickly glancing at his fist as he lowers it. Compare that to the crappy '97 version, which displays a look of mild surprise and then shakes its head a little. Most people are probably too busy rolling their eyes to notice the subtlety of the new animation.

It's still not quite there, though. If ILM could tune up the colour of the Jabba model, and the sound people change the voice to the more authentic version heard in the Clone Wars cartoon, that'd suit me just fine.

I never noticed that, though granted I have the '04 DVD's, i have'nt yet watched them. I still cringe thinking about some of the '97 add-ons...
1 - Luke screaming in Empire as he jumps down the shaft
actually, thats the only problem i have with add-ons, well, except for 3po's arm and the White or Green Anakin Saber in A New Hope

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by kamphausd1

These are probably 2 of the most unintentionally hilarious quotes I've ever read in my life!

So, are you saying the six films aren't supposed to be one coherent story? Or making them moreso would be a bad idea?