Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[oildude]

Originally Posted by thatguamguy

TT.com has a "Going Fast" tab or something like that; it's just Vampires, which has been there for at least six months. SAE generally issues info on their Facebook page I think?, but honestly I just check the first page here, it seems to be kept pretty well up-to-date.

The low quantity alert in the first post of this thread is kept diligently up to date by me with the last known quantities made known by TT. The date of latest update to the list is also there.

[78deluxe]

Originally Posted by Brad1963

The latest from FB a couple days ago is they are still waiting for the 4k remaster.

I've got to wonder how much the 3 yr licencing costs. if they are getting the re-mstaster from the Company, anyone with basic Video production skills could start their own label with a bit of funding.

If I had the master, I could make a BluRay master file with menus and scenes to send off to a printer.

Whole different ballgame if you are doing the scanning of the film itself.

[michaeljoo]

Originally Posted by oildude

You say you looked at the first post of this thread. I suggest taking a closer look.

LOL, I saw that on the OP, but I guess I wanted to know where you get that info from, especially where you get some ideas of the actual inventory numbers, so that I could look things up myself in the future, especially if there is a place where you can sign up to be sent email notifications of low inventory for specific titles.

[thatguamguy]

Originally Posted by michaeljoo

Thanks, I saw that but only saw the Vampires in there, so I thought there must be another list somewhere else.

Now, is that just for TT or also SAE?

I'm not sure what the relationship there is, if TT just sells things through SAE, including some older stuff that they no longer carry themselves.

When there is a "Going Fast" alert, does that mean it's in low quantities only at TT, or also at SAE? Do they have the same or different inventories?

Also, some people seem to post actual inventory numbers. How do they get that info? The Going Fast page doesn't display an actual inventory number.

It's kind of complicated to explain and, to be honest, I'm late to the game myself so I may be slightly off here. But, in simplistic terms, Twilight Time was previously exclusively sold through SAE. Any other place had to buy the titles from SAE and then sell them, they could not buy directly from TT (the business). At some point in the last year, TT added a store to their website. From then on, all titles they released would be available at both SAE and TT. For titles prior to that date, I believe (but I am not sure of this) that SAE bought a certain amount of inventory; at any rate, whatever the reason, things can sell out at TT and still be available at SAE. I think that "Vampires" is now sold out on SAE, so I guess that confirms it can go in the other direction too -- not sure, because it seems counter-intuitive that SAE can't just order more from TT. (Maybe because of the limited stock?) They each have completely separate inventories, but they are selling to the same people, so their "going fast"s tend to be similar.

With the specific numbers, I believe they tend to be pulled from Facebook posts, but if you really want to know for sure, I think you'd have to search this thread to find when somebody posted it and see who they are quoting. For me, I give the thread-starter the benefit of the doubt that the information is being reported accurately.

[thatguamguy]

Originally Posted by oildude

The low quantity alert in the first post of this thread is kept diligently up to date by me with the last known quantities made known by TT. The date of latest update to the list is also there.

Now would be a good time for me to say "Thanks a lot." I will also confirm your diligence so it doesn't sound self-aggrandizing.

[michaeljoo]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

The last SAE sale just ended at the beginning of the month and Twilight Time's own sale was fairly recent as well, so it might be a while yet before the next one (maybe near the end of the year). Your best bet for discounted titles is to go for the signed promos or add some titles to your wishlist on SAE and see if you get offered a "wishlist" sale offer.

How do you do this? I don't see any links for wishlist.

Do you have to create an account to see this?

Thanks.

[thatguamguy]

Originally Posted by 78deluxe

if they are getting the re-mstaster from the Company, anyone with basic Video production skills could start their own label with a bit of funding.

Sure, but the trick would be getting the studio to sell you the license to release the remaster with no track record and only basic video production skills on your resume.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by belcherman

From what I understand, Twilight Time's license allows them a run of 3000 (sometimes 5000) discs with an exclusivity period of three years. In the past, they've gone back and licensed films again, but mostly not. Hypothetically, once that three year period is up, another label could license the same film and release their own edition. I'm not aware of a single instance where that has happened, but it could.

Another label, no. But Sony re-released Christine themselves. Kino have released a few titles on DVD that Twilight Time currently own the blu-ray rights to. It'll be interesting to see when Twilight Time's rights expire, if Kino release those on blu-ray as well.

Originally Posted by thatguamguy

Listen, I don't care about them either, but by building their business model around the limited nature of the releases, TT left themselves open to having to continue to appeal to people who care about limited releases and their sudden whims.

As for speculators -- which isn't really what I was talking about, but I would grant you there is some overlap -- I think you could just as easily say that the extra sales speculators provide are important to Twilight Time's business model. My understanding is that they need to sell half of their print run before they are in profit. With the immediately out of print stuff, obviously that isn't a problem, but most of their titles seem to be kind of slow. An extra 50-100 sales could tip a release into profit. So I can completely understand why they feel the need to listen to that annoying minority -- because that annoying minority is key to their business.

Let me put it this way; if they annoy 20 people regarding one title, it's still worth satisfying the 1 person complaining if that person buys 25 titles from them over time.

Could be. Who knows what the specific prompt was. But it seems to me that part of their motivation for re-releasing titles in the first place was that a whole other group of people were complaining that they missed out and TT tried to appease the "complaining collectors" group by making the newer releases slightly different even if it's just cover art.

[michaeljoo]

Originally Posted by thatguamguy

It's kind of complicated to explain and, to be honest, I'm late to the game myself so I may be slightly off here. But, in simplistic terms, Twilight Time was previously exclusively sold through SAE. Any other place had to buy the titles from SAE and then sell them, they could not buy directly from TT (the business). At some point in the last year, TT added a store to their website. From then on, all titles they released would be available at both SAE and TT. For titles prior to that date, I believe (but I am not sure of this) that SAE bought a certain amount of inventory; at any rate, whatever the reason, things can sell out at TT and still be available at SAE. I think that "Vampires" is now sold out on SAE, so I guess that confirms it can go in the other direction too -- not sure, because it seems counter-intuitive that SAE can't just order more from TT. (Maybe because of the limited stock?) They each have completely separate inventories, but they are selling to the same people, so their "going fast"s tend to be similar.

With the specific numbers, I believe they tend to be pulled from Facebook posts, but if you really want to know for sure, I think you'd have to search this thread to find when somebody posted it and see who they are quoting. For me, I give the thread-starter the benefit of the doubt that the information is being reported accurately.

Great, thanks for the clarification. So TT's and SAE's inventories are separate, that will be good to know. Looking around I've already noticed some stuff that isn't on TT's site but is still there at SAE.

Yes, I looked at the FB page, but it didn't seem to have a dedicated section to low quantity alerts like the TT page did.

[michaeljoo]

Originally Posted by oildude

You say you looked at the first post of this thread. I suggest taking a closer look.

Originally Posted by oildude

The low quantity alert in the first post of this thread is kept diligently up to date by me with the last known quantities made known by TT. The date of latest update to the list is also there.

OK, looks like the OP is the place to go to then to check on the most recent updates on low inventory (with numbers too!).

Not being familiar with the thread I didn't know how regularly it was updated, but it seems like it is regularly.

Thanks for putting together and maintaining this thread. The list of all the recent releases was great for helping me to see what was out there. Unfortunately, my cart already has 11 titles in it now. There's no way I'm going to (or should, at any rate) be buying that many, especially without a sale.

[78deluxe]

Originally Posted by thatguamguy

Sure, but the trick would be getting the studio to sell you the license to release the remaster with no track record and only basic video production skills on your resume.

It wouldn't take more than a week's worth of work to prove it can be done. I'm sure it is an upfront fee + the signing of a particular agreement/legal document.

As long as you can prove you have the collateral to get sued for enough money should you break the agreement, it won't be too hard.

[CraigThom]

Originally Posted by belcherman

From what I understand, Twilight Time's license allows them a run of 3000 (sometimes 5000) discs with an exclusivity period of three years. In the past, they've gone back and licensed films again, but mostly not. Hypothetically, once that three year period is up, another label could license the same film and release their own edition. I'm not aware of a single instance where that has happened, but it could.

It's not another separate label, but Sony release Christine themselves after the Twilight Time window closed.

There's risk for Twilight Time under their model, too. They've got some movies they released six years ago that haven't sold out yet, and they've already paid the licensing fees on those. They aren't, as just about everyone else, only paying the fees on the ones they sell.

I do understand why people don't like Twilight Times business model, but they only release films that

A - the rights holders have mastered for Blu-ray,
B - the rights holders don't want to release themselves, and
C - the rights holders have decided that giving Twilight Time exclusivity for three years for a fixed sum will provide the best ROI.

They could license to someone else and get paid a bit for each unit shipped. It could be more, or it could be less. They do that often. For whatever reason, they don't do it with the Twilight Time titles.

Maybe nobody else wanted them. Maybe nobody offered them enough to make it worth the bean counting. Only they know. I'm pretty sure, though, if someone presented them a solid plan for making more money for those three years, that's the way they'd go.

So if you want to blame someone, blame the studios. They are the ones that decide this limited time, limited number model is the best way for them to release their movies. They could do it themselves, or they could go through someone else. They make the choice.

[CraigThom]

Originally Posted by 78deluxe

It wouldn't take more than a week's worth of work to prove it can be done. I'm sure it is an upfront fee + the signing of a particular agreement/legal document.

As long as you can prove you have the collateral to get sued for enough money should you break the agreement, it won't be too hard.

I'm sure most of these little imprints started that way.

It would be easier with the Twilight Time model, since you are paying it all up front, and it really doesn't matter to the studio whether you actually ship anything or not. They've already got all they were going to.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by michaeljoo

OK, looks like the OP is the place to go to then to check on the most recent updates on low inventory (with numbers too!).

Not being familiar with the thread I didn't know how regularly it was updated, but it seems like it is regularly.

Thanks for putting together and maintaining this thread. The list of all the recent releases was great for helping me to see what was out there. Unfortunately, my cart already has 11 titles in it now. There's no way I'm going to (or should, at any rate) be buying that many, especially without a sale.

My advice. If 10 Rillington Place is a film you are interested in, take advantage of the signed promo offer and get at least 4 other titles on your list. Then wait until this time next month and take advantage of the August signed promo offer. Who knows, if it's a title released in the past few months it could be one of the titles you are wanting to buy already. That's a method many of the regulars on here use when buying, it reduces the costs just a tad plus the autographs are kinda cool.

[BixmanJ]

Originally Posted by 78deluxe

I've got to wonder how much the 3 yr licencing costs. if they are getting the re-mstaster from the Company, anyone with basic Video production skills could start their own label with a bit of funding.

If I had the master, I could make a BluRay master file with menus and scenes to send off to a printer.

Whole different ballgame if you are doing the scanning of the film itself.

There's more to it than that. People complain about some of the TT releases being "barebones" but think about the time and cost factor for everything: Licensing of the movie, extras (like commentaries and isolated score tracks), new artwork, booklet, distribution and storage, and the man-hours it takes to do it all.

Studios also give preference to certain labels. TT has mentioned in the past that they were offered titles that they passed on because there wasn't a good enough master of, which was then released by another label to less-than-stellar results. For a random person to go through all of the work and negotiating to do only one physical film release is not realistic. Film studios are businesses and you have to have a trustworthy and proven background to do business with them, hence why we don't see small labels popping up all the time releasing stuff. TT's founders had decades of experience in the film industry before starting their own boutique label.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by BixmanJ

There's more to it than that. People complain about some of the TT releases being "barebones" but think about the time and cost factor for everything: Licensing of the movie, extras (like commentaries and isolated score tracks), new artwork, booklet, distribution and storage, and the man-hours it takes to do it all.

Kino do a pretty much identical job and manage to sell their flicks for half the price and on Amazon as well. Just saying.

I am not knocking Twilight Time, most of their movies are so niche or old they likely wouldn't be profitable to sell any other way. The ones that would be profitable on Amazon for $15 are likely used to boost their income in the face of slower selling niche stuff, and I believe they have bluntly said that. I totally get it, and the consumer makes the value choice so no one is being misled or mistreated. However, to act like they do a better job in any way to earn that $30 is silly, Kino do the same job for half price and Criterion/Arrow do a MUCH better job for less as well.

[belcherman]

Originally Posted by BixmanJ

There's more to it than that. People complain about some of the TT releases being "barebones" but think about the time and cost factor for everything: Licensing of the movie, extras (like commentaries and isolated score tracks), new artwork, booklet, distribution and storage, and the man-hours it takes to do it all.

I read in interview with Nick Redman a while back where he (in essence) said that for a run of 3000 units, TT had to sell at least 1500 at $30 per just to recoup their licensing and production costs for that title. That does not include the other costs involved with running a business (rent, salaries, office supplies, etc.) Considering most titles have not sold out, even after three years, and that many units have been sold at $20 during sales, I don't think they're getting rich.

I'm not trying to attack or defend their business model. It is what it is. I'm just glad that somebody is putting out these movies, even if it means that I have to pay a bit more for some of them.

[Brad1963]

I would imagine after licensing costs, replication, having someone design the artwork for the wraps and booklets, paying Julie for her essays, printing the wraps and inserts, paying Technicolor to replicate, package and distribute the discs, they do not end up with too much profit. What they do end up making they probably put right into the business again for future releases.

It is two guys, Nick Redman and Brian Jamieson who started TT with their own money. Sure it is easy to ***** and moan about what they charge, but you try to do what they are doing and charge half the price, see how long you stay in business.

I think TT is doing a great job. I also think Cohen Media, Kino, Olive and Shout are wonderful. Thankfully these companies exist so we can have vintage films on Blu ray.

Honestly, how much longer do we have to have the discussion about how TT runs its business?

[Herandar]

Originally Posted by Brad1963

Honestly, how much longer do we have to have the discussion about how TT runs its business?

I suspect it will go on until the business fails. Get some popcorn, we're in for the long haul.

[RalphoR]

Talk about a no-win situation. Whether we agree with TT's business model or not is certainly each individual's prerogative. In the long run it just is what it is.