Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[StingingVelvet]

I definitely think Clones is the one that really, really is hard to watch for me at this point.

[Falaskan]

I agree. I've personally only just liked the CGI of the battle scene, and that's it.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

I made my post because Kryptonic was whining about how people who dislike the prequels never explain why other than "they suck" so I explained why. Also congrats on the bolded part, are you 8 years old?

Edit: I see you own Nolan's Batman films on BD, so I now know that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Well, I see you choose not to explain why you continue to be so hostile about dissenting opinions, so I'll ask a different question:

what exactly is it that makes me an 8-year-old? Just going with the part of my comment that you bolded: is it because I recognize the futility of arguing about an opinion? Is it because you putting Firefly above New Star Wars makes our opinions so incongruent that I think there would be no point in even discussing our differences? Is it because I'm not the least bit impressed with the random-tangent stoner-babble that Tarantino passes for dialogue? Or is it that I see zero logic in the argument that Ghost Anakin should look like a charred amputee? I don't think I left anything out, so it must be one of those.

Also another question: If these things make me an 8-year-old, then what about you? Considering that your two responses to me in this thread have consisted entirely of a crude taunt ("did you pull that out of your a**?"), a juvenile taunt ("you're an 8-year-old"), and a petulant taunt ("you like Nolan Batman, so you don't know what you're talking about"), exactly what do you think all of that says about your level of maturity?

Originally Posted by octagon

Or maybe the so-called whiners have a case.

Maybe the movies aren't very good.

I suppose we can't rule out the possibility that people have been badgered and brainwashed and bewitched and bothered and bewildered into believing the movies aren't very good but I dunno...I think I would probably go with that Occam guy on this one.

What? No 'clever' .gif?

Your argument presumes that "the movies aren't very good" is a fact to be 'wrong' or 'right' about, rather than just being a statement of opinion; but then, it's quite obvious it wasn't meant to be a persuasive argument, it was just the usual catty snark.

Like I said in my last post, heckling and badgering others over their opinion of New Star Wars is indefensible behavior, and defending that behavior does a discredit to yourself. So, why are you choosing to defend that behavior?

Edit: BTW, you've already used that "I'm going with that Occam guy" gag quite enough already.

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

The only reason the "vocal minority" point ever comes up, is because of the fact that such a disproportionate amount of internet content is dedicated to hating New Star Wars. There are so many things that are disliked by many, yet only the American President can approach the amount of sustained vitriol directed at George Lucas and New Star Wars on the internet. No world-wide poll is necessary, it doesn't take a scientific survey to see that it is completely disproportionate: if you went by what you see from blogs, pseudo-critics, and chat forums, you would think that everybody and their dog hates New Star Wars, but boxoffice grosses, home video sales, and cable TV licensing all indicate that New Star Wars has actually been quite popular.

A "whiner" is not a person who hates New Star Wars, a "whiner" is a person who makes it their relentless mission to bicker with everybody about it until the day they have finally converted every single person in the world to also hate it... since that day will never come, it is a futile and irrational quest. It is indefensible behavior, and anybody who would attempt to defend it is doing a discredit to themselves.

First of all, I want to say that I agree about how you distinguish "whiner" from a person who dislikes and criticizes "New Star Wars" as you put it.

However, I have to say that it is not an open and shut case about what is "general opinion" of it or not. You can't just say it was a financial success and most people like it THE END. You have to factor things like the name value of Star Wars and how from a box office perspective it was pretty much a foregone conclusion it would make money no matter what.

I mean, hell, I'm not much of a prequel fan but I saw all of them in the theater and bought the DVDs and then the Blu-Rays. Of course, I don't HATE the films, as there is a difference between hating a movie and thinking it's bad or a disappointment.

All you can really judge without a world-wide survey is your own personal experience. Everybody is always saying "my 9 year old son loves Phantom Menace!" or "Everybody in the theater I went to thought Attack of the Clones sucked!" Then they make presumptions from there that "oh, the only people that love/hate these films are vocal fanboys on the internet!"

The ONLY purpose of the argument is to try to bolster your own opinion by trying to drag the opposing view down. As far as vitriol goes, that's just the internet. Star Wars has passionate fans so you get that. It's not just Star Wars though-- go to Harry Knowles site-- you'll find the same amount of it on virtually EVERYTHING there. Don't even look at the video game console fanboy flame wars on sites like IGN.

Really, despite some annoying bickering occasionally, the people on this site aren't too bad with having reasonable discussions and exchanges of opinions compared to most sites I've seen that have largely turned me off to taking in part in forums at all.

[Falaskan]

What is the likelihood we'll get this in 4k? Real 4K discs?

[octagon]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Your argument presumes that "the movies aren't very good" is a fact to be 'wrong' or 'right' about, rather than just being a statement of opinion; but then, it's quite obvious it wasn't meant to be a persuasive argument, it was just the usual catty snark.

No, my argument presumes that 'the movies aren't very good' is a plausible explanation for people saying they don't like them.

Now, that might not be quite as plausible as 'the majority have been badgered into bashing the prequels by an obsessive minority' but I dunno, it's got a certain something.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Like I said in my last post, heckling and badgering others over their opinion of New Star Wars is indefensible behavior, and defending that behavior does a discredit to yourself. So, why are you choosing to defend that behavior?

I wasn't defending anybody else's behavior, I was rolling my eyes at yours.

You say most people who claim to dislike the prequels don't really dislike the prequels, they've just been brainwashed by a vocal minority.

That's funny enough but then you go on to attribute the actions of this minority to their paranoid obsessions.

I'm sorry but that's freaking hilarious.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by octagon

[Show spoiler] No, my argument presumes that 'the movies aren't very good' is a plausible explanation for people saying they don't like them.

Now, that might not be quite as plausible as 'the majority have been badgered into bashing the prequels by an obsessive minority' but I dunno, it's got a certain something.



I wasn't defending anybody else's behavior, I was rolling my eyes at yours.

You say most people who claim to dislike the prequels don't really dislike the prequels, they've just been brainwashed by a vocal minority.

That's funny enough but then you go on to attribute the actions of this minority to their paranoid obsessions.

I'm sorry but that's freaking hilarious

.

Either you didn't understand a darn thing I said, or you just continue to be so preoccupied with your stone-throwing and belittling that you don't care about being accurate.

Pretty sure it's the latter.

For one thing, you're conflating 'people who don't like New Star Wars' with the group of obsessive nuts who have spent the last 15 years on a crusade to force their opinion on everyone else, which is what I was talking about. If you wish to deny the existence of that insane minority and their insufferable crusade, then I think you are denying a fact that is as plain to see as the nose on my face. What's so blasted funny about attributing their kind of insane behavior to the usual causes?

I need only point to exhibit A, 'The People vs George Lucas', to support this point. How many movies have detractors so obsessive that they go to the expense of producing "documentaries" about how the movie sucks and the producer is evil?

After 15 years of being constantly berated, a lot of people who used to be willing to defend New Star Wars will now no longer do so; this would indicate that they were either persuaded to change their opinion (less likely) or are just going along because they are fatigued by the constant harassment (more likely)... go ahead and mock that as a paranoid delusion, I find the denial equally risible. I mentioned that some of those folks were even people who actually worked on the movies. I'm sure there was a time when Jake Lloyd was more than happy to have been a part of Star Wars, but after the thousandth wise-guy says "hey Jake... Yippeeeeeee!", eventually he gave up and said "fine, you're right, I helped Lucas ruin Star Wars". Now the guy shows up to comic conventions in "Han shot first" shirts with a sullen scowl on his face and ranting about how Phantom Menace sucks and ruined his chance at an acting career. I'm sure Portman also was happy to be part of Star Wars, before she disavowed it after being ridiculed by fans for her poor performance in the films.

I don't know why I'm bothering to explain anything to you, as you have no interest in making sense of a conversation, your only interest, ever, is just making fun of people, while being guarded about your own opinions to minimize your exposure to the risk of receiving the same kind of ridicule. How awesome.

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by octagon

TPM is pretty bad overall but not as bad I thought the first time around. The more I watch it the more easily I'm able to tolerate the bad stuff and some of the cool stuff holds up pretty well.

Clones is worse than I first thought. The bad stuff is just awful and has gotten harder to watch over time. And some of the stuff that I thought was okay (the arena and the clones, the Dooku v Everybody duel) seems kind of tedious now. There's still some cool stuff (the bounty hunter chase was pretty decent and everything around or on Kamino was good) but not nearly enough.

Sith is pretty good overall. It definitely has too many problems to say it's good without some sort of qualifier but there's a lot of cool stuff, the bad stuff isn't usually *that* bad and it's relatively easy to overlook.

Sooooo..... overall verdict: or

You really don't like to commit do you?

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by Elvis

Exactly, especially when it comes in the form of personal insults. Once those start it's clearly a sign that one has run out of constructive conversation.



I have not seen one person who is "pre-hating". I have seen some people with legit concerns about some things but how can you "hate" a film that has yet been released not to mention seen.



That I feel is the only thing that will bring the camps together. I don't think you will see the arguing once everyone has the release the want.

Yep! When people feel the need to incorporate insulting avatars, that get removed by the site, yeah it pretty much crosses the line.
So you're excited for VII then? That's funny because I've seen people predominately list bad things, the same people mind you, and that's about all they say.

[Braktastic]

Originally Posted by Braktastic

I didn't see this posted here. This is a fascinating Star Wars essay. It's quite long but worth the read:

http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

Brief summary please?

I don't know anyway to give you a brief summary that does that essay justice. I would read the first page of it and decide if it is worth your time to read the rest.

The essence is that the prequels were crafted to fit with the original trilogy to form an ancient story-telling technique called “ring composition”. I saw the movies in a whole new light after reading it. I didn't get the impression that it's a defense of the prequel trilogy per se. It's more an explanation that a lot more thought went into them than you think. Sure there are still execution problems in my opinion.

It also confirmed what what I already believed. Mainly that George Lucas is a master of visual story-telling with a tin ear for dialogue and no talent for directing actors.

[Norbie]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I definitely think Clones is the one that really, really is hard to watch for me at this point.

For some reason the thing that irritates me the most is Ewans beard and how it changes between shots. Check out the elevator scene in the beginning or when he sits down to talk with one of the clone makers.

[Himmel]

Well if Lucas made Kenobi Turn to the Dark Side..

[rickah88]

[Gaius Marius]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I definitely think Clones is the one that really, really is hard to watch for me at this point.

I think Clones can be edited down to 30 minutes and not lose anything.

[Himmel]

Originally Posted by Gaius Marius

I think Clones can be edited down to 30 minutes and not lose anything.

Well i tell you that...Lucas must have been listening to fans cause he cut jar jar down considerably in EP:2...

Even when he was speaking to padme she cut him off completely in mid sentence.

And in Ep:3 he was almost non existent.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Braktastic

I don't know anyway to give you a brief summary that does that essay justice. I would read the first page of it and decide if it is worth your time to read the rest.

The essence is that the prequels were crafted to fit with the original trilogy to form an ancient story-telling technique called “ring composition”. I saw the movies in a whole new light after reading it. I didn't get the impression that it's a defense of the prequel trilogy per se. It's more an explanation that a lot more thought went into them than you think. Sure there are still execution problems in my opinion.

It also confirmed what what I already believed. Mainly that George Lucas is a master of visual story-telling with a tin ear for dialogue and no talent for directing actors.

That's not the first intellectual dissection of the prequels and indeed the saga that I've read, and while it's not without merit I don't base my enjoyment of a film solely on how 'smart' it is. Lucas' structural sophistication can only carry the films so far, and although this contemporary review of Clones from Bright Lights raises some very interesting points about that movie, it flies out the window when I catch sight of Ewan's dreadful fake beard or whenever Hayden or Natalie speak. As you say, the man is a master of story-telling apart from that pesky acting/dialogue stuff.

[stvn1974]

http://www.sideshowtoy.com/blog/r2-d...ebelscumdotcom

I have this pre-ordered and it needs to be released...NOW!

I never knew about the shoulders.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Either you didn't understand a darn thing I said, or you just continue to be so preoccupied with your stone-throwing and belittling that you don't care about being accurate.

Well, let's look at that...

Star Wars is a unique cultural phenomenon in many ways, and one of those is that Star Wars is a rare example where over the years a vociferous, aggressive, obsessive minority has effectively badgered a majority into changing their opinions to agree with the whiners (I imagine a lot of people go along with it just to get them to stop the whining).

And how did I characterize that?

'the majority have been badgered into bashing the prequels by an obsessive minority'

You say most people who claim to dislike the prequels don't really dislike the prequels, they've just been brainwashed by a vocal minority.

I dunno, that seems pretty fair.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

If you wish to deny the existence of that insane minority and their insufferable crusade, then I think you are denying a fact that is as plain to see as the nose on my face.

That's a very interesting choice of words. You do know none of us can see your nose, right?

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

What's so blasted funny about attributing their kind of insane behavior to the usual causes?

How exactly did you come to learn that traumatized childhoods are one of the usual causes of the kinds of behavior you're been describing?

Seriously, I want to know.

Did you read it somewhere? Did you take a class? Did you take a lot of classes? Did Oprah do a show about crazy people on the net?

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

I need only point to exhibit A, 'The People vs George Lucas', to support this point. How many movies have detractors so obsessive that they go to the expense of producing "documentaries" about how the movie sucks and the producer is evil?

Sorry, haven't seen it.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

After 15 years of being constantly berated, a lot of people who used to be willing to defend New Star Wars will now no longer do so; this would indicate that they were either persuaded to change their opinion (less likely) or are just going along because they are fatigued by the constant harassment (more likely)... go ahead and mock that as a paranoid delusion, I find the denial equally risible.

No, this version doesn't sound nearly as paranoid as the first.

You are overlooking one other possibility though: maybe some of the former defenders no longer man the walls because they just got bored with the whole thing. Not fatigued by harassment....just plain bored. You might also be low-balling the chances that people might have over time come to genuinely believe that the movies aren't very good.

But paranoid? No, this one barely moves the needle.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

I don't know why I'm bothering to explain anything to you, as you have no interest in making sense of a conversation, your only interest, ever, is just making fun of people, while being guarded about your own opinions to minimize your exposure to the risk of receiving the same kind of ridicule. How awesome.

What would you like to know? I've had quite a bit to say in this thread about the OT and the PT and Lucas and whatnot but if you still have questions please feel free to ask.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by rickah88

Sooooo..... overall verdict: or

You really don't like to commit do you?

Commit to what?

I told you one was pretty good, one was pretty bad and one was really bad.

What more do you need to know? Are we ordering team shirts or something?

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by octagon

Commit to what?

I told you one was pretty good, one was pretty bad and one was really bad.

What more do you need to know? Are we ordering team shirts or something?

So overall you're a fan? I ask, because the bulk of your posts seem to play devil's advocate and I just wanted to know which side of the fence you called home? Or was it on top of the fence? Either way, is fine, obviously, I was just curious.
I'll take an XL if you're ordering.