Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by Elvis

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger



There is so many things wrong with the above analogy I am not even sure where to begin.

So try. Put your little thinking cap on and give it a try. You might surprise yourself and me if you at least try to have a cordial discussion that doesn't get bogged down in the same old anti-Lucas shit that you continually post with little regard for and others views.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

The Prequels and The Clone Wars/Rebels have done a wonderful job of keeping Star Wars relevant among children, especially in this day and age when there is so much geared at younger audiences. Back in 1977, there wasn't much at all. If people hated the movies so much, then I don't see how they continually got fresh ratings, strong audiences scores, and made tons of money.

I bet there are just as many adults that watch the Prequels and Clone Wars/Rebels as kids. There are all kinds of audiences today, but Star Wars is not a huge deal to kids as a whole. Does that mean they hate it? No (nor did I say people hated it by the way). More kids are into Guardians of the Galaxy than Star Wars as I type this.

Now, it will be interesting to see what Disney can do to change that or cause a true Star Wars re-birth. A lot hangs on the new movie.

[Gaius Marius]

With regards to story complexity, I would rather seen a simple story done well (Ep IV-VI) than a complicated one done poorly (Ep I-III).

However, I do like TPM and ROTS (AotC is pretty bad, overall), I just think the simple magic of the OT makes them better films than the 'more complicated' PT. The PT feels like a draft of a really good story that needs a little more polishing to really come together, and I feel that this polishing was put on the back-burner to finalize the visual spectical.

Plus, I really like how the OT mirrors Joseph Campbell's Hero Myth almost perfectly. That alone gives the OT some depth to me.

I like the PT, but it just doesn't feel as polished as the OT.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Gaius Marius

With regards to story complexity, I would rather seen a simple story done well (Ep IV-VI) than a complicated one done poorly (Ep I-III).

However, I do like TPM and ROTS (AotC is pretty bad, overall), I just think the simple magic of the OT makes them better films than the 'more complicated' PT. The PT feels like a draft of a really good story that needs a little more polishing to really come together, and I feel that this polishing was put on the back-burner to finalize the visual spectical.

Plus, I really like how the OT mirrors Joseph Campbell's Hero Myth almost perfectly. That alone gives the OT some depth to me.

I like the PT, but it just doesn't feel as polished as the OT.

That's about how I feel. Sometimes less is more and in Star Wars that is definitely the case. AOTC is indeed terrible mostly because of Christensen and the horrible script. Christopher Lee and Ewan McGregor keep the film from being an absolute disaster. PTM feels more like ROTJ, but the action is just not as rewarding. ROTS is a mixed bag, but again McGregor keeps this one from becoming a disaster.

[Gaius Marius]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

That's about how I feel. Sometimes less is more and in Star Wars that is definitely the case. AOTC is indeed terrible mostly because of Christensen and the horrible script. Christopher Lee and Ewan McGregor keep the film from being an absolutely disaster. PTM feels more like ROTJ, but the action is just not as rewarding. ROTS is a mixed bag, but again McGregor keeps this one from becoming a disaster.

I also feel that AotC is only good when Obi-Wan/Jango Fett are on screen. If they made Anakin more likeable (not sure how much is Lucas' writing and how much is Christensen's acting), AotC and RotS could have been much better. Overall, RotS is good, and TPM feels the most like the OT.

[StingingVelvet]

Whatever your thoughts are on the prequel trilogy you have to admit those films are... divisive, at least. And that writing is not their strong suit... surely we can agree on that?

Considering these facts I think it's good Lucas is being used more as inspiration than creative force.

[stvn1974]

Have the numbers for the BD releases of Complete Saga, Prequel and Original Trilogy sets ever been released? I wonder how much more the Original Trilogy set sold over the Prequels? And how many people who bought the Complete Saga would have settled for only getting the Original Trilogy if the extras were there and vice versa with the Prequels.

[30hertzrumble]

Originally Posted by Gaius Marius

With regards to story complexity, I would rather seen a simple story done well (Ep IV-VI) than a complicated one done poorly (Ep I-III).

However, I do like TPM and ROTS (AotC is pretty bad, overall), I just think the simple magic of the OT makes them better films than the 'more complicated' PT. The PT feels like a draft of a really good story that needs a little more polishing to really come together, and I feel that this polishing was put on the back-burner to finalize the visual spectical.

Plus, I really like how the OT mirrors Joseph Campbell's Hero Myth almost perfectly. That alone gives the OT some depth to me.

I like the PT, but it just doesn't feel as polished as the OT.

This gets right to heart of the matter. Complexity matters not when the execution is bungled. Lucas tried to jam so much into the prequels that we were never allowed to enjoy any of the great ideas because they were obscured the next idea or the next thing or the next unnecessary visual. Movies don't need to be complex to suggest depth. The prequels became a cacophony of visual and narrative excess. I enjoy a great many things about them... but they're also infuriating.

[thegoat]

Originally Posted by Elvis

My suggestion and this is just a friendly suggestion is follow the link below to SW enlightenment. It will open a whole new world to Star Wars fans and maybe give a new perspective.

http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/

Anybody who claims to offer enlightenment is usually selling just the opposite.

[mjbethancourt]

Awesome post, Krypto:

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

[Show spoiler]This is a joke right? All you can give us is "terrible", "horrible", and "a disaster"? That's not criticism. Why do you think it's terrible? Why is it a disaster? If you make these kinds of statements, you have to further back them up with some form of validity and logic. Not just directed at you, but all of the detractors. And don't go quoting some bullshit video from Red Letter Media or something else. Think for yourself. Why does the complexity of the Prequels make it less enjoyable, whether you think it was done well or not, than the Original Trilogy.

The Prequels are just as interesting when discussing Joseph Campbell as the Original Trilogy, perhaps more so since we're dealing with more interesting and varied characters, especially with regards to Anakin and Palpatine.

I thought the prequels introduced archetypes and storytelling dynamics that very effectively counterbalance the hero's journey archetypes of the original trilogy, specifically: relationships and motivations taking on family-relationship contexts, (Anakin the stepchild, Qui-Gonn the wise and gentle foster parent/cool uncle who dies too soon, Obi-Wan the grumpy uptight uncle/stepdad-by-default who doesn't get along with Anakin the stepchild, Palpatine the overindulgent grandpa who spoils Anakin and undermines Obi-Wan and all the other grumpy-uncle jedi) and Shakespearean story structures and devices, (I'm thinking mainly of Revenge of the Sith with its five acts, and Palpatine as a Iago-type).

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

The simple truth of the matter is that there's little difference between the two trilogies and when you sit down and watch all six, as I've done recently, you come to the realization that the series has a unifying sense of itself and it's purpose and style. What gets in the way are the hangup's people have with how they viewed them as a kid and now through adult eyes, whether they will admit it or not.

[Show spoiler]They probably won't because that deflates most of their argument, but it's the truth for the majority of the detractors who are blind to the Original Trilogy's failings, but feel it is there duty to make sure everyone knows the same failings are present within the Prequel Trilogy. Because, how could anyone disagree with them since they are right? That right there, my friends, is the definition of a zealot. Blind and ignorant

.

I've always been baffled that nobody seems to get this. Star Wars is a unique cultural phenomenon in many ways, and one of those is that Star Wars is a rare example where over the years a vociferous, aggressive, obsessive minority has effectively badgered a majority into changing their opinions to agree with the whiners (I imagine a lot of people go along with it just to get them to stop the whining). Even some of the people that put a lot of their own work and effort into making the films have been badgered so much that they now openly profess to hate Star Wars and be ashamed of their work. They also got their wish and drove Lucas out of the Star Wars business.

One could wax philosophical for pages on end about just why it is that people act that way. I think most of it just derives from paranoid obsessions and traumatized childhoods.

[stvn1974]

Here is why I dislike the prequels.

Jar Jar Binks. I don't think I need to really go into this part.

Anakin is written to be a whiny brat. He is selfish, easily manipulated and decides to be a mass murderer because of it. Now I no longer care if Luke "saves" him at the end of Jedi. He should have turned him over to the Rebellion and let them try him for war crimes. His turn to the darkside is so quick and the reason behind it is absurd. He has a nightmare about his wife dying in childbirth so does he have her go to a doctor? They have space ships that can fly to the end of the galaxy and back in 3 minutes but they don't have ultrasounds so that they would have known they were having twins?

The dialogue is laughable. The OT might not have Tarantino like dialogue but I don't roll my eyes whenever a human character opens their mouth.

Then there are all of the things that are said to have happened or do happen that are contradicted by the prequels. Leia remembering Padme, Ben's terrible memory of about everything that happened before A New Hope, etc.

If Star Wars started out in 1977 with the version of The Phantom Menace that we have now I doubt the others would have ever been made. The prequels are bad films. Not just bad Star Wars films but bad films in general. The worst thing to come out of the Prequels is the fact that the OT had to suffer because of them. None of the changes that were done were needed and they only lessen the films. How anyone with 20/20 vision can think that the Jabba in A New Hope looks good is beyond me. Anakin as a young Hayden also makes no sense story wise. If Anakin saw the error of his ways and is "saved" as Luke puts it then he would have been Anakin again then and not Vader since the good in him was revealed. So if anything the force ghost at the end should have been crispy Anakin with out any limbs propped up against Yoda.

You add all of these things up and the saga is a huge mess. The three original films in their original forms were fun and for many of us a big part of our childhoods so I don't understand why we are not allowed or expected to voice our dislike for the prequels and the current state of the series.

[crazyBLUE]

[octagon]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Star Wars is a unique cultural phenomenon in many ways, and one of those is that Star Wars is a rare example where over the years a vociferous, aggressive, obsessive minority has effectively badgered a majority into changing their opinions to agree with the whiners (I imagine a lot of people go along with it just to get them to stop the whining).

Or maybe the so-called whiners have a case.

Maybe the movies aren't very good.

I suppose we can't rule out the possibility that people have been badgered and brainwashed and bewitched and bothered and bewildered into believing the movies aren't very good but I dunno...I think I would probably go with that Occam guy on this one.

[motorheadache95]

Of all the time I've spend reading these arguments (way more than a human being should) the worst thing an argument can degenerate into is "more people agree with me!" or "Your opinion is just that of a whiny vocal minority!"

As if anybody has taken a world-wide poll to check it out. It's stupid and people just do it because they feel offended and are trying to make opposing opinions look stupid or insignificant.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

Here is why I dislike the prequels.

You've already repeatedly explained your opinion about why you don't like them; (repetition doesn't turn opinion into fact).

What you have yet to explain, is why you always choose to be so cantankerous, hostile, and generally emotionally disturbed about it.

Originally Posted by stvn1974

Jar Jar Binks. I don't think I need to really go into this part.

[Show spoiler]Anakin is written to be a whiny brat. He is selfish, easily manipulated and decides to be a mass murderer because of it. Now I no longer care if Luke "saves" him at the end of Jedi. He should have turned him over to the Rebellion and let them try him for war crimes. His turn to the darkside is so quick and the reason behind it is absurd. He has a nightmare about his wife dying in childbirth so does he have her go to a doctor? They have space ships that can fly to the end of the galaxy and back in 3 minutes but they don't have ultrasounds so that they would have known they were having twins?

The dialogue is laughable. The OT might not have Tarantino like dialogue but I don't roll my eyes whenever a human character opens their mouth.

Then there are all of the things that are said to have happened or do happen that are contradicted by the prequels. Leia remembering Padme, Ben's terrible memory of about everything that happened before A New Hope, etc.

If Star Wars started out in 1977 with the version of The Phantom Menace that we have now I doubt the others would have ever been made. The prequels are bad films. Not just bad Star Wars films but bad films in general. The worst thing to come out of the Prequels is the fact that the OT had to suffer because of them. None of the changes that were done were needed and they only lessen the films. How anyone with 20/20 vision can think that the Jabba in A New Hope looks good is beyond me.

Anakin as a young Hayden also makes no sense story wise. If Anakin saw the error of his ways and is "saved" as Luke puts it then he would have been Anakin again then and not Vader since the good in him was revealed. So if anything the force ghost at the end should have been crispy Anakin with out any limbs propped up against Yoda.

There is no point arguing with an opinion, so I'm not going to do it. However, I do have to take this opinion with the hefty dose of salt of knowing it comes from someone who likes Firefly, (which, in my opinion, at its very best it is still worse than the worst of Star Wars), a person who just posited Tarantino as his example of ultimate dialogue, and who just tried to pass off the above bolded argument as being logical.

Originally Posted by stvn1974

[Show spoiler]You add all of these things up and the saga is a huge mess.

The three original films in their original forms were fun and for many of us a big part of our childhoods so I don't understand why we are not allowed or expected to voice our dislike for the prequels and the current state of the series.

Why do some people always make the irrational leap to complaining that they are "not being allowed to have their opinion" just because other people are exercising their right to a dissenting opinion? Having a right to an opinion doesn't mean badgering people into admitting that your opinion is "right", and other people sticking to their opinion and not rolling over for yours does not constitute depriving you of your right to an opinion.

[HeavyHitter]

One of the problems with the prequels that you didn't have in the originals is, each movie had one character or actor that was just outright terrible.

For example, in Ep I you had to deal with Jar Jar Binks for way too much of the movie. In Ep II and III, you had the terrible acting of Hayden Christensen (and it was terrible - no two ways about it!).

Despite other flaws with the prequels, there are some things I did like (Ewan McGregor was excellent and Neeson was good in Ep I). There was some very good visuals and action scenes and I do watch these every once in a while.

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by octagon

Or maybe the so-called whiners have a case.

Maybe the movies aren't very good.

I suppose we can't rule out the possibility that people have been badgered and brainwashed and bewitched and bothered and bewildered into believing the movies aren't very good but I dunno...I think I would probably go with that Occam guy on this one.

So what is your official stance? Do you like or no?
Seriously, I am curious as most of your posts seem to straddle the fence.

[alexdg1]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

You've already repeatedly explained your opinion about why you don't like them; (repetition doesn't turn opinion into fact).



Why do some people always make the irrational leap to complaining that they are "not being allowed to have their opinion" just because other people are exercising their right to a dissenting opinion? Having a right to an opinion doesn't mean badgering people into admitting that your opinion is "right", and other people sticking to their opinion and not rolling over for yours does not constitute depriving you of your right to an opinion.

I heartily agree with you, sir.

If some fans don't like the Prequel Trilogy (or elements thereof), that's their opinion. They are free to express it.

I like the Prequel Trilogy, even though it has its weak spots. The Original Trilogy (even the Holy Grail of the original theatrical versions) has its weak spots, as well.

What I don't like, though, is when the fans that don't like the Prequels or the modifications to the Original Trilogy get argumentative and even...yes...badger other fans that don't agree with them.

[svenge]

Originally Posted by alexdg1

What I don't like, though, is when the fans that don't like the Prequels or the modifications to the Original Trilogy get argumentative and even...yes...badger other fans that don't agree with them.

Yeah, because you PT/SE types are sooooo accepting of criticisms regarding the myriad missteps and self-inflicted damage that Lucas has done to the franchise since 1983...

[Shin sam]

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

No, loses... You can see more of the brown in the "lighter" of the two shots. In the darker one, the fold on the right side, by the hood becomes almost completely black.
Definition in HIS left ear is also lost.

Ah, yes, yes. My bad. Sorry, carry on.