Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[kamphausd1]

Originally Posted by Nada

It isn't. The idea and saga evolved over the years, but clearly once the concept of Vader being Luke's dad was created, it took on a different meaning. It's the story of the Skywalker family and that includes Anakin's descendants.

I understand that stories and concepts can evolve over years and can in turn give many different meanings. Problem though is that what we got in the prequels never came across as an organic or fitting extension to what had been established in the OT many years earlier. Much of it just came across like stuff that George had simply changed his mind about years after the fact, particularly when it came to the stuff dealing with Anakin.

It would've been more fitting I think to have made Anakin a smaller part of a much larger story, or at the very least hadn't concocted this lame idea where he's suddenly the be-all and end-all of the entire SW saga and is part of this asinine prophecy which (much like how in the Back to the Future sequels where Marty flies into a rage when somebody calls him a name) just came across as something George pulled right out of his ass.

But I think the people currently in charge of the new SW material are doing a much better job of making sure everything fits and feels organic to what's already been established before-hand (check out the new SW comics from Marvel to see what I mean). I'm personally loving the new stuff being put out by the Lucasfilm story group and I think it's some of the best SW stuff since the OT.

[stvn1974]

The current Marvel comics are excellent. Can't wait for the upcoming Chewbacca 5 issue mini and the rest of the Lando run. I do think with the Leia mini they missed an opportunity to fix some problems with the prequels like how she remembered her birth mother but I still enjoyed them. My brother even commented that it is too bad the current writers of the Star Wars and Darth Vader comics weren't the writers of the prequels.

I never got into the expanded universe but now that Disney/Lucasfilm have a clear outline and everything will be canon I plan on getting and reading all of the future novels too. Unless TFA sucks and then I will wash my hands of all of it.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by kamphausd1

I understand that stories and concepts can evolve over years and can in turn give many different meanings. Problem though is that what we got in the prequels never came across as an organic or fitting extension to what had been established in the OT many years earlier. Much of it just came across like stuff that George had simply changed his mind about years after the fact, particularly when it came to the stuff dealing with Anakin.

It would've been more fitting I think to have made Anakin a smaller part of a much larger story, or at the very least hadn't concocted this lame idea where he's suddenly the be-all and end-all of the entire SW saga and is part of this asinine prophecy which (much like how in the Back to the Future sequels where Marty flies into a rage when somebody calls him a name) just came across as something George pulled right out of his ass.

Aye. Lucas simply didn't have some grand story all mapped out. He certainly had the bare bones which we heard about for donkey's years (Anakin falls in lava pit etc) but not the connective tissue and he winged it from movie to movie. In a way the prequels remind me of the Hobbit movies, taking the guts of a good little story and padding it out over three movies filled with tacky CG action scenes rather than concentrating on that troublesome story stuff (like excising the scenes with Padme's family in Clones but adding that ghastly mario bros. droid foundry action scene in the pickups). Pffft.

[Falaskan]

^^^ preach!

[stvn1974]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Aye. Lucas simply didn't have some grand story all mapped out. He certainly had the bare bones which we heard about for donkey's years (Anakin falls in lava pit etc) but not the connective tissue and he winged it from movie to movie. In a way the prequels remind me of the Hobbit movies, taking the guts of a good little story and padding it out over three movies filled with tacky CG action scenes rather than concentrating on that troublesome story stuff (like excising the scenes with Padme's family in Clones but adding that ghastly mario bros. droid foundry action scene in the pickups). Pffft.

C3PO became Jar Jar annoying during that droid foundry scene. Plus when he falls and catches that thing flying in the air he becomes really dark gold and it doesn't even look like him.

[kamphausd1]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

The current Marvel comics are excellent. Can't wait for the upcoming Chewbacca 5 issue mini and the rest of the Lando run. I do think with the Leia mini they missed an opportunity to fix some problems with the prequels like how she remembered her birth mother but I still enjoyed them. My brother even commented that it is too bad the current writers of the Star Wars and Darth Vader comics weren't the writers of the prequels.

I never got into the expanded universe but now that Disney/Lucasfilm have a clear outline and everything will be canon I plan on getting and reading all of the future novels too. Unless TFA sucks and then I will wash my hands of all of it.

Rebels has been pretty good as well, and I have no doubt it'll get even better this season. In my opinion, it's given us the most menacing depiction of Darth Vader yet, and that is not a statement one can make lightly.

Personally, I think Dave Filoni should've been in charge of the prequels.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

C3PO became Jar Jar annoying during that droid foundry scene. Plus when he falls and catches that thing flying in the air he becomes really dark gold and it doesn't even look like him.

In a funny way him becoming a battle droid is a lovely metaphor for how the Jedi themselves are turned from purveyors of peace into instruments of war in that movie, but the scene itself is utterly superfluous from a narrative standpoint and that kinda sums up the prequels for me.

They're filled with incredibly rich symbolism from beginning to end (they're a shrink's dream) and do have some stirring scenes here and there, but overall the narratives are so clunky and disjointed (filling in the story afterwards doesn't help) that it's very tough for me to enjoy them as this contigious series of films; they barely connect to each other, never mind to the OT.

Still, they are independent films after all, so it's no wonder they sometimes play more like arty tone poems than a coherent whole. It's Lucas using his newfound digital freedom to noodle along to any tune that pops into his head, making up the notes as he goes. "Digital jazz", I think he called it? Sounds about right to me, as one man's triumphant 20-minute trumpet solo is another man's indulgent toss.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

The problem, though...

Fair enough points.

I think I am so used to the original trilogy being dead to me in a lot of ways that I just accept it now and go with the flow. The Star Wars I fell in love with on HBO and VHS in the 80's as a kid hasn't really been around in a long time. Not trying to sound dramatic, that's just how I feel.

[Nada]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

Still cracks me up to see Vader merch aimed at young kids. Plush dolls, cereal bowl and spoon sets. Why not have a Charles Manson and John Wayne Gacy kids line of underoos and bath bubbles.

Yeah, kids don't like bad guys like Frankenstein, Dracula, Wolf-Man, or zombies at all. No, kids don't think those things are cool one bit.

[Nada]

Originally Posted by kamphausd1

I understand that stories and concepts can evolve over years and can in turn give many different meanings. Problem though is that what we got in the prequels never came across as an organic or fitting extension to what had been established in the OT many years earlier. Much of it just came across like stuff that George had simply changed his mind about years after the fact, particularly when it came to the stuff dealing with Anakin.

It would've been more fitting I think to have made Anakin a smaller part of a much larger story, or at the very least hadn't concocted this lame idea where he's suddenly the be-all and end-all of the entire SW saga and is part of this asinine prophecy which (much like how in the Back to the Future sequels where Marty flies into a rage when somebody calls him a name) just came across as something George pulled right out of his ass.

But I think the people currently in charge of the new SW material are doing a much better job of making sure everything fits and feels organic to what's already been established before-hand (check out the new SW comics from Marvel to see what I mean). I'm personally loving the new stuff being put out by the Lucasfilm story group and I think it's some of the best SW stuff since the OT.

Feels very organic to me with Anakin and Luke's stories paralleling eachother very poetically and seeing how the choices they make change the outcome. Having Anakin be a small part of a Clone War saga is undramatic. It works well for the animated series, but for three two-hour films it would leave a lot to be desired and would lack the proper dramatic heft.

[kamphausd1]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

The problem, though, for those of us who knew Star Wars before Lucas' revisionism kicked in (i.e. prior to 1997), is that it never seemed back then to be Anakin's saga. I know that's how Lucas has recently portrayed it, but if that's what he "always" intended (and Lucas has put such a subjective gloss on that word I almost feel I should add a ™) then he did a poor job of conveying it in the OT. To me, it feels like "our" star Wars has been hijacked.

Add to that, the Anakin he gave us is such an irritating, unsympathetic, unlikeable character, at every age, that it's hard to swallow now being told he's the focus of the "saga". The OT *used* to be Luke's struggle to find his destiny amid the greater struggle of The Force to reassert itself, all of which has now been subsumed into the struggle for personal redemption of someone who fell into darkness through his own greed and weakness in the first place.

So yeah, just replacing Anakin with Vader as the key logo is a pretty simplistic approach to the story.

He seems more likable in what I've seen from the Clone Wars cartoon. People have said his characterization and depiction in that show makes him more like the Han Solo of the jedi order, and I'd say that's a fair description. In fact, the guy who did his voice should've been the one to play him in the prequels. He's young Anakin to me.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

Still cracks me up to see Vader merch aimed at young kids. Plush dolls, cereal bowl and spoon sets. Why not have a Charles Manson and John Wayne Gacy kids line of underoos and bath bubbles.

There's more to it than that. Millions (Billions?) of people die in Star Wars - much of it is basically a holocaust and the whole thing is treated like an exciting adventure, suitable for children. How are kids supposed to feel when they see the burnt skeletons of Luke's aunt and uncle? Or when Anakin murders the kids in the Jedi Temple? Or when a whole world is destroyed, which is passed over like someone got punched in the mouth.

Although I don't think it was Lucas' intention, one could easily make the case that the entire series is actually war propaganda so that kids will grow up thinking that war is a fun adventure. (I also don't think it was Lucas' intention to make the Jedi, and therefore religion, look bad, but the Jedi were miserable failures in everything they ever did.) I think one of the questions that needs to be asked is if Star Wars desensitizes kids to violence?

Because of the way Star Wars is packaged and because it's been so loved over the years, I think parents forget what it's really about. My daughter hasn't let my 6-year-old grandkid see Star Wars yet even though he's gotten very into its world and characters through Lego toys and kids' editions of Star Wars related stories, because she realizes what's really in there. But it's amazing how into it he is even without having seen the films.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

There's more to it than that. Millions (Billions?) of people die in Star Wars - much of it is basically a holocaust and the whole thing is treated like an exciting adventure, suitable for children. How are kids supposed to feel when they see the burnt skeletons of Luke's aunt and uncle? Or when Anakin murders the kids in the Jedi Temple? Or when a whole world is destroyed, which is passed over like someone got punched in the mouth.

Although I don't think it was Lucas' intention, one could easily make the case that the entire series is actually war propaganda so that kids will grow up thinking that war is a fun adventure. (I also don't think it was Lucas' intention to make the Jedi, and therefore religion, look bad, but the Jedi were miserable failures in everything they ever did.)

Because of the way Star Wars is packaged and because it's been so loved over the years, I think parents forget what it's really about. My daughter hasn't let my 6-year-old grandkid see Star Wars yet even though he's gotten very into its world and characters through Lego toys and kids' editions of Star Wars related stories, because she realizes what's really in there. But it's amazing how into it he is even without having seen the films.

I think Lucas is very much anti-war but you're right, there's a definite sense of 'war is fun, kids!' running through them (it's fitting that he used real WWII gun-camera footage to fill in for his space battles during the preliminary edits) and as for propaganda, Lucas famously referenced Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will for the layout of the medal ceremony at the end of the original film, something which continues to be echoed in Star Wars to this day.

Perhaps it'll take something like Rogue One to show us the uglier side of intergalactic conflict in the Star Wars universe; heck, even the Clone Wars cartoon had a good stab at what it meant to be bred for war re: the clones.

[Nada]

Anakin, especially in AOTC, isn't necessarily supposed to be likeable or easy to identify with. That's part of the point - that the desire for control and the fear that he feels are negative are shown to not be appealing, especially to the young viewers of the film. The things he does, especially in ROTS are supposed to be reprehensible. If Lucas had gone the way many wanted, with Anakin already on the verge of going to the dark side and being a "badass" then there would be no arc and it would look to be too appealing, that kind of behavior. Lucas knew what he was doing and crafted a wonderful tragic fall of his hero.

[dcowboy7]

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by Nada

Anakin, especially in AOTC, isn't necessarily supposed to be likeable or easy to identify with. That's part of the point - that the desire for control and the fear that he feels are negative are shown to not be appealing, especially to the young viewers of the film. The things he does, especially in ROTS are supposed to be reprehensible. If Lucas had gone the way many wanted, with Anakin already on the verge of going to the dark side and being a "badass" then there would be no arc and it would look to be too appealing, that kind of behavior. Lucas knew what he was doing and crafted a wonderful tragic fall of his hero.

I don't really agree because I don't feel like Anakin transforming into Darth Vader felt like a tragic fall of a hero. It doesn't feel like he goes through any kind of arc. He's just a teenager who whines and wants power, and then in RotS he still is just a whiny young man who wants power, and then he is sort of "duped" into turning evil at the end. It doesn't make for an interesting story, IMO.

And I know people throw around the "people just wanted to see him as Darth Vader going around killing people" thing (including Lucas himself) but I just don't think thats the case. I LIKED the idea that he was Anakin in the entire trilogy, and that Lucas withheld putting him into that costume until the very end. I just don't think he really took the great story elements he had and fleshed them out the way they should have. The whole trilogy feels pretty empty to me and a missed opportunity to tell a grand tragic story.

[Arawn]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

and then he is sort of "duped" into turning evil at the end. It doesn't make for an interesting story, IMO.

He doesn't really get duped per se. He makes a deal with the devil, so to speak.

It doesn't work out.

[bubbafett73]

We all know that the Star Wars movies are not about the Skywalkers, but the droids. C-3PO and R2-D2 are the true stars and are the only characters in all 6 of the movies. Anakin-smanakin , give me R2 any day.

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by bubbafett73

We all know that the Star Wars movies are not about the Skywalkers, but the droids. C-3PO and R2-D2 are the true stars and are the only characters in all 6 of the movies. Anakin-smanakin , give me R2 any day.

R2 is genuinely one of my favorite Star Wars characters, honestly. Here you have this little robot who, design-wise, is something almost resembling a trash can, barely has a discernible face, no arms to emote with, etc. and yet is filled to the brim with personality. Just by subtly turning his head an inch to the side or making a slightly different bleeping noise we can tell what he's thinking, how he's feeling, how he's reacting to something. As time goes by and the more I watch the movies, I become increasingly more impressed by just how well he works as a character and how incredibly likable he is, considering all his (what you'd think would be) "limitations".

I love that droid.

[Sketchkid]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

I LIKED the idea that he was Anakin in the entire trilogy, and that Lucas withheld putting him into that costume until the very end. I just don't think he really took the great story elements he had and fleshed them out the way they should have. The whole trilogy feels pretty empty to me and a missed opportunity to tell a grand tragic story.

I was hoping it'd go even further and we'd end with the Emperor looking down on him on Mustafar, walking away... leaving the audience presuming he's dead. Than in ANH is when we see Vader (in full costume) for the first time.

It just came across as a tacked on scene so they could use him in the marketing of the film imo. That's something a big studio would decide to do, and in the end Lucas wasn't much different than that.

I don't think Anakin needed to be that much different from Luke in the OT, the difference being that during the Emperor scenes, he (truly) gives in to the dark side. But he still should've been likable in the previous two films.