Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[The Fallen Deity]

I quite like some of the effects changes such as the CGI in the battle of Yavin and Cloud City and Ian McDiarmid as Palpatine in ESB (although I wish they had left the dialogue alone) but the rest of the changes I'm not that keen on and I definitely prefer the theatrical cuts for all 3 films.

And this is coming from someone who grew up with the 1997 Special Editions and the prequels.

The worst changes for me being Hayden Christensen as Anakin's force ghost (the worst change in the entire history of the Special Editions imo), Darth Vader shouting no, Greedo shooting first and Jedi Rocks.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by happydood

Of those 70's filmmakers who thrived on telling independent stories that would be then distributed by studios before they were completely subsumed by them, he was the one who had enough money to essentially keep telling independent stories and then have them distributed by the studios.

But he didn't tell independent stories. At least not in any meaningful sense. He made big-budget, mainstream Hollywood blockbusters. He didn't break free of the studio system. He didn't manipulate the studio system. He joined it. He became a part of it.

Originally Posted by happydood

But on the strength of the original trilogy and Indiana Jones, he has my good will.

Those films get him a lot of good will from me as well. What they don't get him is any kind of cred as an independent filmmaker. Tina Fey is female and she does impersonations but she's not a female impersonator. It might be technically true but it's just not what we mean when we use that phrase.

Over the past forty years he's talked a lot about returning to his roots and making the kinds of small films he wanted to make all along but he's never really done it. Once he established his own studio he didn't make films like American Graffiti or THX 1138. He made five more Star Wars movies and three or four or however many Indiana Jones movies he had a hand in.

Originally Posted by happydood

The thing is, I think we're agreeing on Lucas' problems, but the difference is I don't think it's a black-and-white situation where we can say "Oh, it's all this way and that's that and so he's dead to me." Sorry to simplify your thoughts, but for me it's not as simple as he sold his company to another company. I don't think we'd be here still discussing him if that were really the case.

With regard to independent filmmaking there wasn't a dime's bit of difference between Disney buying Lucasfilm and Disney buying Marvel Studios. Neither purchase changed the independent film landscape in the slightest.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Indeed, it is ironic.

Though it's also true that there's really never been an easier time for an independent filmmaker to grab a camera and make a movie. The chances of it catching on and giving you a career is slim, but hundreds of indie movies are made every year. Reading some "top ten" lists across the web for 2015 and half the movies I have never even heard of. They're everywhere. Georgie should support them with his 4 billion.

Totally agree. Not only are the barriers to entry lower than they've ever been, there are also a lot of middle-tier sources of financing. The major studios aren't even close to being the only game in town anymore. There are a lot of mid-level production companies financing a lot of really good movies. Just look at some of the stuff the Weinsteins have financed.

For all the bleating people do about remakes and comic books movies the landscape is far from bleak if people are willing to do just a tiny bit of looking.

[Neon Rabbit]

Originally Posted by Aragorn the Elfstone

I remember that. I was too young and naive to realize the implications, though. I actually loved the '97 Special Editions at the time. They made me the Star Wars fanatic I am today, and I was drinking the cool-aid George was serving about them being the "Definitive" versions (though nostalgia actually makes them feel more "definitive" to me than what would follow on DVD and Blu-ray).

Plus, to a young kid, the cleaner, shinier version with more footage and enhanced special effects was, of course, going to be the "better" version. I remember getting so excited when I finally got to pick up the gold Special Edition trilogy set on VHS (I still have it on my shelf for sentimental value). Truth be told, I'd even really love it if those versions were made available via seamless branching alongside the originals if/when they are restored.

At the time, I had no concept of the evolving nature of home video formats, and that those original films would be relegated to old, out-of-date video masters for the next couple decades (and, if I'm honest, as a young kid I didn't really care).

What a difference time and perspective makes.

Yeah, I was more or less the same way as a kid. I knew what Star Wars was from having seen random parts of the movies on the Sci-fi channel in the earlier 90s and I had a few of the vintage figures from garage sales and whatnot, but I really got into Star Wars during the 20th Anniversary hype. That was when I got into the toys full on, I got the "Faces" VHS set of the original trilogy for my 9th Birthday, saw the SE of each movie as they came out in theaters, and got the gold SE VHS set the following Christmas. I loved the SE as a kid and in fact, Jedi Rocks was probably my favorite addition to ROTJ as a kid. I've always loved music and to me as a kid that new song was just the best!

I guess I was also weird kid tho because I loved classic cinema and would watch AMC endlessly over anything else. During that time as a kid I would often rent black & white movies from the 30s - 50s as well as some silent films in an era when most other kids my age thought they were absolutely boring and wouldn't be caught dead watching that kind of stuff, so I was aware that the original cuts of Star Wars were an important part of history and I felt they should co-exist along side the SE. I didn't really take the whole One Last Time... Thing seriously until the 2000 VHS set came out and all non SE copies completely disappeared from rental stores. Prior to that I would regularly see copies of the Faces videos in retail outlets as late as 1999.

[StingingVelvet]

I went to the SEs in theaters with my high school friends and we totally MST3K'd that shit.

[Aragorn the Elfstone]

Originally Posted by Neon Rabbit

Yeah, I was more or less the same way as a kid. I knew what Star Wars was from having seen random parts of the movies on the Sci-fi channel in the earlier 90s and I had a few of the vintage figures from garage sales and whatnot, but I really got into Star Wars during the 20th Anniversary hype. That was when I got into the toys full on, I got the "Faces" VHS set of the original trilogy for my 9th Birthday, saw the SE of each movie as they came out in theaters, and got the gold SE VHS set the following Christmas.

Yep, very similar experience (except my dad was the one with the couple of vintage action figures ).

Speaking of the SE VHS tapes, I actually sought out the silver Widescreen version of the '97 box set on Ebay shortly before the DVDs came out in 2004 - because I wanted to make sure that I had Widescreen presentations of the films I'd grown up on (especially once it was revealed that the DVDs would incorporate prequel elements like Hayden's ghost). It may only be VHS, but I'm glad I have those editions, as I've said before, for historical value.

Also, shortly before the 2006 LE DVDs were announced, I purchased the "Faces" Laserdisc editions of the original versions - along with a laserdisc player just so I could watch them. I've proud to say that those are some of my most prized possessions.

[Geoff D]

I love the 'silver' SE VHS boxset too, even the smell of the packaging makes me nostalgic. I watched the Star Wars SE so much I wore the tape out and had to buy it again.

[Aragorn the Elfstone]

As long as we're on a trip down memory lane, here's the 3 different trailers for each of the Special Editions (man, they marketed the hell out those didn't they? ):

Star Wars Special Edition - All Three Trailers(A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi) - YouTube

[happydood]

Originally Posted by octagon

But he didn't tell independent stories. At least not in any meaningful sense. He made big-budget, mainstream Hollywood blockbusters. He didn't break free of the studio system. He didn't manipulate the studio system. He joined it. He became a part of it.



Those films get him a lot of good will from me as well. What they don't get him is any kind of cred as an independent filmmaker. Tina Fey is female and she does impersonations but she's not a female impersonator. It might be technically true but it's just not what we mean when we use that phrase.

Over the past forty years he's talked a lot about returning to his roots and making the kinds of small films he wanted to make all along but he's never really done it. Once he established his own studio he didn't make films like American Graffiti or THX 1138. He made five more Star Wars movies and three or four or however many Indiana Jones movies he had a hand in.



With regard to independent filmmaking there wasn't a dime's bit of difference between Disney buying Lucasfilm and Disney buying Marvel Studios. Neither purchase changed the independent film landscape in the slightest.

Well, I think you're disregarding the fact that nobody and I mean NOBODY in the system thought of Star Wars as a mainstream Hollywood film until after it was released and was a success. And there was a very real possibility that Empire would not be well-received and that would have been the end of Lucasfilm. TXH pretty much sank Zoetrope, after all.

And the technical semantics to which you're referring? If an independent decides to open a burger joint with his own money right next to a Mcdonald's, he might be making burgers, but he's still an independent. You might wish he made sushi, but he's choosing what to do with his money and if he becomes successful, you can't say he's McDonalds.

And no he didn't change the independent landscape by selling so much as continue to fortify the studio landscape, so in the next couple of years we get to alternate between Star Wars spin-off movies and Captain America movies that over-expose both brands and crowd out the entertainment landscape until the only thing playing at multiplexes that can compete is Fast & Furious 8. Those independent movies will still get made. I'll seek them out and still be able to see them. I've been using this approach to music for the past 25 years of my life. Sorry if that's bleating, but I kinda feel the same toward the opposing viewpoint that dismisses what it can't accept.

You're right that he hasn't made the small independent films that he's threatened to, but for better and some would say much worse, he did have complete, total and independent control of the Prequels. I don't love that they all came out exactly as they did. But they feel like they were made by somebody with a point of view, however clumsy it came across. I'm kinda sorry to see that go.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Aragorn the Elfstone

As long as we're on a trip down memory lane, here's the 3 different trailers for each of the Special Editions (man, they marketed the hell out those didn't they? ):

Star Wars Special Edition - All Three Trailers(A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi) - YouTube

nggg....too...much..nost..al...gia...to...take...

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by Aragorn the Elfstone

I remember that. I was too young and naive to realize the implications, though. I actually loved the '97 Special Editions at the time. They made me the Star Wars fanatic I am today, and I was drinking the cool-aid George was serving about them being the "Definitive" versions (though nostalgia actually makes them feel more "definitive" to me than what would follow on DVD and Blu-ray).

Plus, to a young kid, the cleaner, shinier version with more footage and enhanced special effects was, of course, going to be the "better" version. I remember getting so excited when I finally got to pick up the gold Special Edition trilogy set on VHS (I still have it on my shelf for sentimental value). Truth be told, I'd even really love it if those versions were made available via seamless branching alongside the originals if/when they are restored.

At the time, I had no concept of the evolving nature of home video formats, and that those original films would be relegated to old, out-of-date video masters for the next couple decades (and, if I'm honest, as a young kid I didn't really care).

What a difference time and perspective makes.

When the Special Editions first came out, there were no real implications attached to them, other than: Hey, here's a chance to go see the movies again in the theaters with some neat new additions put in! It was fun to go see them in the theater, though I thought some of the additions were kinda stupid, but whatever. It was just a fun new version of the films to watch. After I saw them in the theater I continued to watch my VHS "Faces" box set at home.

Only after the DVD set in 2004 came out was there a sudden problem with the altered version being the ONLY version coming out. Until then, you had both on VHS and both on laserdisc. And DVD had become the most popular medium to own movies in a format that preserved them and wouldn't wear out like a VHS (I didn't own a laserdisc player, neither did anyone I know, plus I hear some of them ended up getting disc-rot).

Truthfully though, I've never had a real issue watching the UOT. There were always fan preservations from the laserdiscs and later fans enhancing the transfer from the LE bonus disc in better quality. They weren't top-notch quality but then again the official DVDs were horrid quality anyway with weird color-timing (pink lightsabers!) and botched audio.

Now we've got the despecialized editions and I'm 100% confident Disney will be putting out the UOT restored and finally give it the respect it deserves. It's just a question of when.

[Geoff D]

I'm not sure about that first part MH. Over here, the 1996 THX tapes were clearly marketed as 'the last time to own this version' or something to that effect, so I can't say I wasn't warned.

[svenge]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I'm not sure about that first part MH. Over here, the 1996 THX tapes were clearly marketed as 'the last time to own this version' or something to that effect, so I can't say I wasn't warned.

We weren't warned about how badly the changes would be executed, nor that even further desecrations of the films were to happen in 2004 and 2011.

[Geoff D]

Sure, more fool us, I'm not trying to excuse anything here. But we were told, I can assure you of that:

YouTube

[Aragorn the Elfstone]

Yeah, but that was on VHS. As a kid, I had no concept of VHS not being the be-all end-all of home video.

Originally Posted by svenge

We weren't warned about how badly the changes would be executed, nor that even further desecrations of the films were to happen in 2004 and 2011.

This, so much. I'll go ahead and shamefully admit that I probably wouldn't be as upset if the DVD and Blu-ray versions had been the '97 Special Editions, which I grew up on. I'd still object to the originals not being available for the sake of historical significance, but I could live with it.

It's those damn further changes that rankle me. Most of all, the ones done to bring the films in line with the prequels.

And that freaking "Noooooooo!!!!"

[octagon]

Originally Posted by happydood

Well, I think you're disregarding the fact that nobody and I mean NOBODY in the system thought of Star Wars as a mainstream Hollywood film until after it was released and was a success. And there was a very real possibility that Empire would not be well-received and that would have been the end of Lucasfilm. TXH pretty much sank Zoetrope, after all.

I'm completely disregarding the things he did in the 70s because the things he did in the 70s aren't particularly relevant to the impact of either his retirement or the sale of Lucasfilm to Disney.

Originally Posted by happydood

And the technical semantics to which you're referring? If an independent decides to open a burger joint with his own money right next to a Mcdonald's, he might be making burgers, but he's still an independent. You might wish he made sushi, but he's choosing what to do with his money and if he becomes successful, you can't say he's McDonalds.

If that burger joint turns into a chain with locations all over the world that offers the same generic fast food menu made from the same processed ingredients I think I would be justified in saying it was no different than any other fast food chain and you would be hard pressed to argue that it was still one of the indies.

And for the record, I never wanted your burger guy to make sushi. I wanted him to make better burgers cause forty years ago his burgers were freaking awesome.

[Neon Rabbit]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I'm not sure about that first part MH. Over here, the 1996 THX tapes were clearly marketed as 'the last time to own this version' or something to that effect, so I can't say I wasn't warned.

I remember seeing the "One Last Time" promos at the beginning of the Faces tapes, but being a naive 9 year old kid it didn't really mean anything to me at the time. I saw the Faces videos in stores for a good few years afterwards and it didn't really occur to me at the time that VHS would be a dead format in 10 years and be replaced by something superior, so as far as I was concerned I had the movies on video, what was there to worry about?

It wasn't until 2000 that Lucas started "banning" the UOT. Throughout the rest of the late 90s you could go into any local video store and find an ample supply of both the UOT and SE available for rent. I imagine they were very popular rentals so most video stores had a good amount more than most other catalogue titles. As a kid I would sometimes even rent the 80s CBS Fox versions even tho I owned the Faces and SE sets just because I wanted to see an older, non remastered print of the movie and my dad would get mad at me for wasting money to rent something that in his mind I already owned, lol.

2000 was the year that officially spelled doom for the UOT for me. By then I had a DVD player and knew VHS was on the way out. The 2000 VHS Trilogy came out for the first time with numeric episode titles to match the prequels and no mention of whether they were the SE, and suddenly all video rental outlets in my area had completely gotten rid of all video copies they previously had besides the SE. It was only then that I realised George was serious about burying the UOT.

[Aragorn the Elfstone]

Originally Posted by Neon Rabbit

As a kid I would sometimes even rent the 80s CBS Fox versions even tho I owned the Faces and SE sets just because I wanted to see an older, non remastered print of the movie

My aunt and uncle had those tapes. Whenever I'd visit them when I was younger, I'd take them out and gawk at them at least once or twice because the artwork was so beautiful.

[Geoff D]

Guys, I get that you were (seemingly ) all kids back then so you didn't know what it meant, but in the cold light of day the message is perfectly clear IMO. Myself, I understood it well enough. (I was 16 at the time and was well aware of other formats like laserdisc, VCD and the impending upgrade to the 5-inch disc format, of which there were a few mooted contenders. DVD won, IIRC. )

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Neon Rabbit

It was only then that I realised George was serious about burying the UOT.

To be fair, he did start to soften on that just prior to retiring. He started calling them the classic versions rather than work prints or rough drafts.

Would that have ever translated into any kind of release? We'll never know but it was a little encouraging.