Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Anamorphic lenses & flare, you might want to Google it.

Oh, I know. I was just pointing out that that's one of Abrams' things.

[WhySoBlu?]

Member the Ewok village?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

What was vacuous about Super 8 or M:I:III? He didn't write the TREKs either.

Super 8 felt like a retread of past glories (merging ET with a dash of The Thing and a hint of Cloverfield) and Mi3 is a pure bubblegum movie, but I must confess that I love it for that. I watched it again not too long ago and enjoyed the heck out of it, because it's JJ not trying to be too JJ, y'know? And I didn't say he wrote the Treks but they still have his stylistic fingerprints - such as they are - all over them, so they still count.

Originally Posted by MechaGodzilla

Heh, now that you say it, I can kind of see Abrams as the missing link between Spielberg and Bay.

That's a great way of putting it.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Super 8 felt like a retread of past glories (merging ET with a dash of The Thing and a hint of Cloverfield)

Seemed a dark take on the Goonies type film he (we) grew up with (his protagonist is roughly the same age I was in 1979) and with Spielberg executive producing...

and Mi3 is a pure bubblegum movie, but I must confess that I love it for that. I watched it again not too long ago and enjoyed the heck out of it, because it's JJ not trying to be too JJ, y'know?

M:I:III is pure JJ because it's his show ALIAS reconfigured to Cruise's Mission:Impossible universe, even to the point of adding Simon Pegg to the team to be the Marshall Flinkman of the group. Having Keri Russell in the film is proof because ALIAS was borne out of JJ wondering "What if Felicity was really a secret agent?"

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

M:I:III is pure JJ because it's his show ALIAS reconfigured to Cruise's Mission:Impossible universe, even to the point of adding Simon Pegg to the team to be the Marshall Flinkman of the group. Having Keri Russell in the film is proof because ALIAS was borne out of JJ wondering "What if Felicity was really a secret agent?"

Okay, it's JJ being TV JJ and not Movie JJ then. Whatever it is, for me it's the most purely enjoyable one out of all his films thus far.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

[edit] If the PT was sunk by the world-building - which I definitely agree with, Lucas bit off way more than he could chew - and the ST (so far) doesn't give a toss about it, then the OT is the porridge that's juuuuuuuust right: it had a damned near perfect balance of story and world-building. Cynics would say "well, that's because it had to establish the world of SW, being the start of this entire franchise" but that still doesn't change how well those movies handled such things IMO ("certain points of view" aside).

I think you underestimate how much Star Wars left vague and the sequels filled in. Still, I agree a happy medium is the way to go, and would like to see more detail in the sequel to TFA without it going full prequel.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I think you underestimate how much Star Wars left vague and the sequels filled in. Still, I agree a happy medium is the way to go, and would like to see more detail in the sequel to TFA without it going full prequel.

Not at all. Even in the first reel we get told there's an Imperial Senate, Vader reiterates that Rebel Spies got hold of the Death Star plans and beamed them to Leia, then there's Luke at the dinner table ("he has too much of his father in him"), then there's Obi-Wan's bit to Luke "about the dark times", then there's the bit on board the Death Star where we're told about how the Senate has been dissolved and that the Emperor maintained control via that same bureaucracy, only to have that power replaced by the Death Star etc. The way it deftly integrated all that stuff without making it seem like we're being pummelled by exposition is one of the film's great strengths; again, more by dint of it being The Very First Star Wars Movie™ so it had to establish the universe around it, but that still doesn't invalidate it as a good piece of writing (nominated for an Oscar, as it was).

One of the reasons I disliked Avengers 1 for so long is much the same reason as why TFA leaves me cold: I felt like I'd walked in halfway through the movie or something, it's just so distant from what came before and because they simply don't bother to tell you anything about certain characters (Hawkeye, for example) I didn't understand why I had to feel anything about them or care that the other characters had feelings for them. You of all people, who seems to despise this kind of serialised storytelling with a passion, should be able to recognise where I'm coming from.

But now, having gotten to know those same characters over the course of subsequent films, I can look back on Avengers 1 with a fondness that I never thought I'd have. I've said this before, that I've got a feeling that Ep VIII is gonna end up being like Age of Ultron: lots more pesky character stuff at the expense of the kind of lightweight, throwaway adventure feel of the first one. So while everyone who loved TFA is gonna moan that VIII not as good, I'm gonna freakin' love it just like Ultron.

[Arch Stanton]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Sorry, but his films have a definite look & style different from others.

They're definitely identifiable (i.e. you could probably pick out a J.J. Abrams movie if you were unaware he directed it) with the rapid pacing, steadicam oners, lens flares etc, but it's also true that he's ripped many of his quirks from other filmmakers (mostly Spielberg) and the rest has just fallen into place. I don't know whether I'd call him anything other than competent.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But now, having gotten to know those same characters over the course of subsequent films, I can look back on Avengers 1 with a fondness that I never thought I'd have. I've said this before, that I've got a feeling that Ep VIII is gonna end up being like Age of Ultron: lots more pesky character stuff at the expense of the kind of lightweight, throwaway adventure feel of the first one. So while everyone who loved TFA is gonna moan that VIII not as good, I'm gonna freakin' love it just like Ultron.

Well I agree with this a lot anyway. Avengers felt like a long climax to the first 5 movies which annoyed the hell out of me as someone who wants each movie to stand alone. Avengers 2 felt more like a real movie, even if it's not an amazing one.

I just don't get why you see TFA as similar to Avengers though. It tells such a character driven story of Rey and Finn especially. The only things left vague are the politics of the First Order/Resistance stuff and the mysteries of Rey's parentage and Snoke's origins. Those are mysteries left for future movies surely, but the story of the movie itself feels complete to me.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Well I agree with this a lot anyway. Avengers felt like a long climax to the first 5 movies which annoyed the hell out of me as someone who wants each movie to stand alone. Avengers 2 felt more like a real movie, even if it's not an amazing one.

I just don't get why you see TFA as similar to Avengers though. It tells such a character driven story of Rey and Finn especially. The only things left vague are the politics of the First Order/Resistance stuff and the mysteries of Rey's parentage and Snoke's origins. Those are mysteries left for future movies surely, but the story of the movie itself feels complete to me.

But if I don't care for those characters, what then? Ah want moar politiks! Even just a few lines here and there about where the First Order rose from and why the Resistance is this weird kind of militia separate from the Republic would've done a lot to placate me even if Rey & Finn's stories played out exactly the same.

Originally Posted by Arch Stanton

They're definitely identifiable (i.e. you could probably pick out a J.J. Abrams movie if you were unaware he directed it) with the rapid pacing, steadicam oners, lens flares etc, but it's also true that he's ripped many of his quirks from other filmmakers (mostly Spielberg) and the rest has just fallen into place. I don't know whether I'd call him anything other than competent.

Agreed, he's taken the "magic box" thing to heart: just by saying it's a magic box that could have anything inside it he thinks that's enough to keep people rapt with his slick technical style, but more often than not the reality is that there's nothing inside the box and the attention-grabbing visuals are sleight of hand to distract you. They can be very entertaining distractions to be sure, but in a vapid blockbuster type way that's far more Bay than 'berg, as previously noted.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But if I don't care for those characters, what then? Ah want moar politiks! Even just a few lines here and there about where the First Order rose from and why the Resistance is this weird kind of militia separate from the Republic would've done a lot to placate me even if Rey & Finn's stories played out exactly the same.

Well yeah, I ain't saying the movie is great or anything. I just don't think the First Order being poorly explained or Rey's parents being a mystery is the main issue. I have a feeling if you loved the movie in general these issues would be minor complaints.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Well yeah, I ain't saying the movie is great or anything. I just don't think the First Order being poorly explained or Rey's parents being a mystery is the main issue. I have a feeling if you loved the movie in general these issues would be minor complaints.

Ain't that always the way? In a movie you enjoy you don't sweat the small stuff, but if you don't dig it then them thar molehills become mountains, yessir.

[imsounoriginal]

Gave TFA a rewatch after work this afternoon; nothing really changed. It's an entertaining movie, I have a good time while I'm watching it, mainly because the new characters are all really well-done (I attribute that more to the performances than the writing), but it all ends up feeling kinda vapid afterwards. The story is rote and the middle hour or so still has trouble holding me, but the first half-hour is some of the best Star Wars there is and from the time Rey and Finn walk into the snowy forest through to the end is solid. The final scene is genuinely moving in a way the rest of the movie isn't; unlike the fan-service bits that are focused-grouped to get cheers from the audience, it actually gets to me. Everything Han and Leia say to each other is such clunky exposition I'm surprised the people who call out the PT for that don't have the same criticism here. Han's death still does nothing for me for some reason; maybe cuz it's so easily predicted. And Adam Driver is miscast; he's a good actor, and Kylo Ren is an awesome character when the mask is on, but as soon as it's off I just can't take him seriously. But yeah, it's overall a solid movie; I never said it wasn't, I just wish I was able to like it as much as everyone else, but something's missing. Something... elusive. I dunno. Hopefully when VIII and IX are out it'll fit in more. I did catch more details about the New Republic this time, little throwaway lines of dialogue (Threepio saying something about how they don't stand a chance against the First Order without the Republic fleet to back them up, etc.), so the seeds of that backstory are definitely there. Anyway, just sharing random thoughts.

EDIT: Oh, and just wanted to add -- from the rewatch, I think it's pretty much 100% clear that Rey is Luke's daughter. I mean, it's fun to theorize about who else's lovechild she could be (Leia and Han's, Leia and Luke's, the Midichlorians'), but I think seeing that whole Force-trip again cemented it for me. Maz practically says it with the bit about how it was Vader's saber, than Luke's, and now it's calling to YOU. Oh, and Maz is a pain in the ass. Literally a walking, talking JJ Mystery Box. "A good story... for another Episode. Hope to see you there." Gah!

[Geoff D]

I noticed that about Han and Leia's dialogue too, it's proper prequel awks, like EVERY time they refer to Ben they call him "our son" just so the reveal of Solo shouting "BEN!!!" can be kept for the end. Eh.

[imsounoriginal]

Yeah, there are some real clunkers in there. It's kinda like what Ford says in Empire of Dreams about Lucas, how something may look good on paper, but you can't actually say this s***

[Show spoiler]Han: Listen to me, will you? I know every time you... Every time you look at me you're reminded of him.
Leia: You think I want to forget him? I want him back.
Han: There's nothing more we could have done. There's too much Vader in him.
Leia: That's why I wanted him to train with Luke. I just never should have sent him away. That's when I lost him. That's when I lost you both.
Han: We both had to deal with it in our own way. I went back to the only thing I was ever any good at.
Leia: We both did.
Han: We lost our son. Forever.
Leia: No. It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the dark side. But we can still save him. Me. You.
Han: If Luke couldn't reach him, how could I?
Leia: Luke is a Jedi. You're his father. There is still light in him, I know it.

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

And Adam Driver is miscast; he's a good actor, and Kylo Ren is an awesome character when the mask is on, but as soon as it's off I just can't take him seriously.

You're judging Kylo Ren at face value. There was one image of him unmasked that was released a full seven months before the movie came out. I find it very hard to believe that there are people who didn't know what he looked like in all that time.

[imsounoriginal]

Yeah I never liked that picture. But I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in the movie because everything about Kylo Ren in the trailers looked sick, and he lived up to the hype in the movie -- until the mask comes off. Driver's a good actor, I've seen him in other stuff. I just didn't care for him here. Not sure what him being a Marine has to do with any of that...

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

You're judging Kylo Ren at face value. There was one image of him unmasked that was released a full seven months before the movie came out. I find it very hard to believe that there are people who didn't know what he looked like in all that time.

[Show spoiler]

Complete with parking lot lights in the background.

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

Yeah I never liked that picture. But I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in the movie because everything about Kylo Ren in the trailers looked sick, and he lived up to the hype in the movie -- until the mask comes off.

Looks aren't everything.

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

Looks aren't everything.

You must be right, I am wrong.