Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Riddler95]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

I'll have to do that tonight. I'll get you the exact shot.

Once again thank you so much.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Riddler95

Once again thank you so much.

That card must be a publicity still because it is not in the actual film. I went over the scene about five times. Anyway, here's one that's really close:

[Riddler95]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

That card must be a publicity still because it is not in the actual film. I went over the scene about five times. Anyway, here's one that's really close:

Oh, thanks for doing that. The shot your captured is still very nice.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Martoto

I don't believe anyone is making out that Vader is "just a small part" in any story.

It's a bit much to call the OT the "Anakin Skywalker story" in any sense.

Anakin Skywalker was actually dead (from every point of view) and Darth Vader was not Luke's father until 1978 when the continuing story reconceived as Luke redeeming and saving his living father, rather than honouring the name of a dead one.

Vader was simply Luke's nemesis up to till the shocking twist of ESB.

And Vader continued to be the Emperor's slave. And effectively takes no active part until his sudden volt face at the end.

Vader was always Luke's father while there were films.

The reveal is something that was already written long before. There were beats put in, and Annakin's story was solid in the Ben Kenobi reveal to Luke early and the light saber fight where the meet again.

Luke has always been secondary to a much bigger story. With every step he is aspiring to chase his father who laid the groundwork before him.

Hell even episode VII relies on Vader heavily.

The Luke story only existed in the eyes of fans that want to change George Lucas vision. Darth Vader is the most important figure and Luke's journey would be nothing without it.

Even Vader got annoyed and had to bail his son out in the end. He said "we" could overthrow the emperor, I guess him as an old man using his son as bait is what had to happen.

Luke story no way.

[Mighty Max]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

Vader was always Luke's father while there were films.

The reveal is something that was already written long before. There were beats put in, and Annakin's story was solid in the Ben Kenobi reveal to Luke early and the light saber fight where the meet again.

Luke has always been secondary to a much bigger story. With every step he is aspiring to chase his father who laid the groundwork before him.

Hell even episode VII relies on Vader heavily.

The Luke story only existed in the eyes of fans that want to change George Lucas vision. Darth Vader is the most important figure and Luke's journey would be nothing without it

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

Vader was always Luke's father while there were films.

The reveal is something that was already written long before. There were beats put in, and Annakin's story was solid in the Ben Kenobi reveal to Luke early and the light saber fight where the meet again.

Luke has always been secondary to a much bigger story. With every step he is aspiring to chase his father who laid the groundwork before him.

Hell even episode VII relies on Vader heavily.

The Luke story only existed in the eyes of fans that want to change George Lucas vision. Darth Vader is the most important figure and Luke's journey would be nothing without it.

Even Vader got annoyed and had to bail his son out in the end. He said "we" could overthrow the emperor, I guess him as an old man using his son as bait is what had to happen.

Luke story no way.

"I had no idea Darth Vader would be such a successful character. He was supposed to be a sort of anachronism, pathetically mired in the Empire's bureaucracy."

Only the judicious recycling of a couple of existing effects shots, a decision taken very late in the production, let Vader live at the end of Star Wars.

The person most responsible for changing or revising George Lucas's vision is George Lucas.

And here's why - First rule of showbusiness : "If it works, leave it in."

[bobbyh64]

So Darth Vader died in the original Star Wars script?

[Mighty Max]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

So Darth Vader died in the original Star Wars script?

Yep, and Obi-Wan lived.
It wasn't until filming that they realized that Obi-Wan was doing nothing, so they killed him off to have impact.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by Mighty Max

Yep, and Obi-Wan lived.
It wasn't until filming that they realized that Obi-Wan was doing nothing, so they killed him off to have impact.

They knew full well, before they started filming, what Kenobi did or didn't do.

It is a common misconception that they blithely to opted to kill the character to mitigate the fact that he was "doing nothing" after the escape from the Death Star. There was a much greater cinematic and emotional incentive for killing arguably the most formidable good-guy in the movie midway through it. Besides, he isn't "doing nothing" in the finale. He reminds Luke, at several points, of his training (such as it was). Which turns out to be the deciding factor in Luke surviving his fighter combat initiation and in the rebel victory.

They production felt that there was an emotional turning point that the movie was lacking. Lucas toyed with the idea that Kenobi should be sacrificed to allow the others to escape, a la Gandalf in Moria. But he wanted Ben to continue to be Luke's spiritual guide, enabling him to succeed in the assault on the Death Star (and actually train him in any possible sequels, crazy as that idea sounds). The indecision irritated Alec Guinness, who spent weeks playing a part he didn't know was going to survive till the end or not.


Lucas finally agreed that Ben's death would improve the film significantly. And so, he invented the concept of merging with the force and then having the power to linger as a disembodied voice. Since the character virtually became a disembodied voice (over radio) in the climactic battle, Lucas ultimately saw it as a great opportunity that should not be missed and, due to the nature of Kenobi's later participation, would not affect the remainder of the movie, except to enhance it emotionally.


If you think about it , there never was any such thing as "just kill off" Kenobi because he doesn't physically participate in the final act. You don't kill a major character off because they don't need to be seen on screen. Leia doesn't physically participate in the final battle. I guess there was no reason not to just kill her too. You don't "just kill" a character for those reasons, unless it's because you don't want to continue paying the actor's per diem or some other grubby reason like that.

They did not kill Kenobi because he played no physical part in the finale. Because Kenobi did not need to be seen in the final act, it was possible to give Luke and emotional catharsis and provided the second act with one of the most iconic moments in movie history. Never mind Star Wars history.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

So Darth Vader died in the original Star Wars script?

He was not seen to survive, and Vader's escape was never shot.

ILM guys were incredulous when near the end of post-production, Lucas asked them to find a way of showing Vader getting away.

They took the beginning of the slate that had Vader spinning out of the trench, (interior of Vader's fighter cockpit) where the camera rig was just getting up to speed, and reversed it so it looked like he was coming to rest.

They then took an existing effect shot of Vader and his wing men leaving the hangar and just lopped off the wingmen and the hangar bay.

Put the two together and voila! "Darth" lives to fight another day.

[oldgame]

Originally Posted by Martoto

He was not seen to survive, and Vader's escape was never shot.

ILM guys were incredulous when near the end of post-production, Lucas asked them to find a way of showing Vader getting away.

They took the beginning of the slate that had Vader spinning out of the trench, (interior of Vader's fighter cockpit) where the camera rig was just getting up to speed, and reversed it so it looked like he was coming to rest.

They then took an existing effect shot of Vader and his wing men leaving the hangar and just lopped off the wingmen and the hangar bay.

Put the two together and voila! "Darth" lives to fight another day.

Oh boy! Something added to Star Wars that originally wasn't there.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Martoto

"I had no idea Darth Vader would be such a successful character. He was supposed to be a sort of anachronism, pathetically mired in the Empire's bureaucracy."

Only the judicious recycling of a couple of existing effects shots, a decision taken very late in the production, let Vader live at the end of Star Wars.

The person most responsible for changing or revising George Lucas's vision is George Lucas.

And here's why - First rule of showbusiness : "If it works, leave it in."

When I say early, I mean before Star Wars was completed as in hitting theaters. Could be years, could be days...doesn't matter.

The point is that the story was flowing in Lucas head (and probably still is as any great creator) connection was brilliant, and Luke was based off a father of some kind which means Luke's character is SECONDARY to a bigger father story.

Annakin/Vader/some father figure-for my point they are all the same thing.

[Mighty Max]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

When I say early, I mean before Star Wars was completed as in hitting theaters. Could be years, could be days...doesn't matter.

The point is that the story was flowing and Luke was based off a father of some kind which means Luke's character is SECONDARY to a bigger father story.

Annakin/Vader/some father figure-for my point they are all the same thing.

Anakin...
At first it could have just been a typo, but you keep typing it wrong.
Not sure if you know the correct way to spell his name or not...
But, just in case...

Not being mean or snarky, just helping...

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Mighty Max

Anakin...
At first it could have just been a typo, but you keep typing it wrong.
Not sure if you know the correct way to spell his name or not...
But, just in case...

Not being mean or snarky, just helping...

No prob. It is one of those names I can't remember, but thx for letting me know

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

When I say early, I mean before Star Wars was completed as in hitting theaters. Could be years, could be days...doesn't matter.

The point is that the story was flowing in Lucas head (and probably still is as any great creator) connection was brilliant, and Luke was based off a father of some kind which means Luke's character is SECONDARY to a bigger father story.

Annakin/Vader/some father figure-for my point they are all the same thing.

Pointing out the facts of the process isn't intended to diminish the outcome.

I don't think it'd necessary to idealise the process in order to enhance the quality or the propriety of the outcome either.

Lucas was in charge and he did what he set out to do, by hook or by crook. It is academic when something that later defined the movie actually came to be resolved.

Had it turned out to be crap, he would have been liable, no matter how closely it resembled his initial vision.

I've just watched ROTJ commentary. Lucas says the two trilogies are a father's story and a son's story. OT concludes with Vader's redemption. He did not, however, redeem himself in any way shape or form until the dying moments of that trilogy.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Martoto

I've just watched ROTJ commentary. Lucas says the two trilogies are a father's story and a son's story. OT concludes with Vader's redemption. He did not, however, redeem himself in any way shape or form until the dying moments of that trilogy.

And? Just kidding, but honestly I don't thinking Vader ever redeemed himself.

But whether he did or he didn't doesn't change the fact that he is a bigger part of the story.

Like I said before, it is the Skywalker story at worst, but the Anakin story in reality as a whole.

The OT only works with Luke following in his fathers footsteps, but the redemption to pair with the father reveal in ESB show where the focus is.

[Mighty Max]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

And? Just kidding, but honestly I don't thinking Vader ever redeemed himself.

But whether he did or he didn't doesn't change the fact that he is a bigger part of the story.

Like I said before, it is the Skywalker story at worst, but the Anakin story in reality as a whole.

The OT only works with Luke following in his fathers footsteps, but the redemption to pair with the father reveal in ESB show where the focus is.

Anakin showed up as a Force ghost. He was redeemed.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Mighty Max

Anakin showed up as a Force ghost. He was redeemed.

Good point.

So the story starts with Anakin in the original Star Wars and ends with him in Jedi in the Ghost scene. Seems pretty clear to me who the most important character is. ....well except for the group shot.

[Mighty Max]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

Good point.

So the story starts with Anakin in the original Star Wars and ends with him in Jedi in the Ghost scene. Seems pretty clear to me who the most important character is. ....well except for the group shot.

Yep, Luke and Wedge are the most important of the trilogy...

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

And? Just kidding, but honestly I don't thinking Vader ever redeemed himself.

But whether he did or he didn't doesn't change the fact that he is a bigger part of the story.

Like I said before, it is the Skywalker story at worst, but the Anakin story in reality as a whole.

The OT only works with Luke following in his fathers footsteps, but the redemption to pair with the father reveal in ESB show where the focus is.

He defied and destroyed his evil master (which he had hitherto implied he was incapable of doing, alone). Vader redeemed himself alright. To a certain degree, of course. What else could he have done though?


Luke lived on a farm with two parents until he was 18. Became a rebel pilot and belatedly assumed the abbreviated training of a Jedi knight.

Anakin was taken from his only parent at eight and trained for 13 years tied to the hip of his master and withing the Jedi order of the old republic..

Apart from the force stuff, Luke does not follow in his father's footsteps. By the end of ROTJ Luke realises how he "could" take the path of his father and what the consquences will be.

The OT is just nott Vader's/Anakin's story. I haven't heard an argument yet , based on what actually happens in the movies, that supports the idea that he is.