Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[crissrudd4554]

Originally Posted by koberulz

I did Google it, I found the 4K77 page and it offered no explanation.

I'm still not sure I understand it even now. There are three 1977 mixes, two of which are labeled "2018 version"? What are the two stereo remixes?

If I want the original theatrical experience, which is the point of the whole thing, which of the first three tracks do I use?

There were three mixes for the original theatrical film. The 70mm mix, 35mm mix, and the 35mm mono mix created for theatres without stereo equipment. To my knowledge the first two have only minor differences while the mono had many changes made. At one point it was decided the mono would become the definitive audio mix so they made some additional changes that weren’t present in the stereo mixes some of which they carried over to the Special Editions. However, they ultimately went with the stereo mix when Star Wars was released to video.

[Takeshi666]

Originally Posted by octagon

Actually a lot of people seem to love that. Anytime anybody is even remotely critical of any behavior people trample each other trying to make that criticism all about them. Whether it is or not.

While I'm otherwise inclined to agree, it's partly the fault of the authors' as well as the readers'.

Like fine, so Tran is attacked by a bunch of racists on Twitter or whatever. That doesn't mean they're fans. They're more likely just racists looking for an excuse to be racists. Failing to make a distinction between them and actual fans is just needlessly insulting the latter, who will then react accordingly and suddenly you got this ridicilous cycle of rage.

[Takeshi666]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

There were three mixes for the original theatrical film. The 70mm mix, 35mm mix, and the 35mm mono mix created for theatres without stereo equipment. To my knowledge the first two have only minor differences while the mono had many changes made. At one point it was decided the mono would become the definitive audio mix so they made some additional changes that weren’t present in the stereo mixes some of which they carried over to the Special Editions. However, they ultimately went with the stereo mix when Star Wars was released to video.

This. Different versions were shipped to different cinemas depending on the equipment they had, so as such there's really no "true" original audio. Even if you dismiss the mono track on the account of having been made afterwards, you've still got two to choose from.

As far as I know, the Stereo mix is nearly identical to the '85 mix, only the latter includes the extra tractor beam line. Ben Burtt himself was involved so I guess in a way that home video mix is the "definitive" version of that mix, while the mono mix is the definitive theatrical mix.

This is one of those fun situation where it really does boil down to your own personal preference. Personally I'd probably go with the mono mix because it sounds so different to anything that's ever been released on home video and it'd be a fresh experience of nothing else.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Takeshi666

Failing to make a distinction between them and actual fans is just needlessly insulting the latter, who will then react accordingly and suddenly you got this ridicilous cycle of rage.

[citation needed]

If you're going to parse this so precisely you really need to provide some examples of these supposedly distinction-free condemnations of all fans.

The people calling out the manbabies routinely qualify the shit out of their comments and it doesn't even slow down the 'cycle of rage' because a lot of the 'actual fans' apparently believe that negative attention - whether it's actually directed at them or not - is preferable to no attention at all.

You're definitely right about it being ridiculous though.

[crissrudd4554]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeXp...ature=youtu.be

[Takeshi666]

Originally Posted by octagon

If you're going to parse this so precisely you really need to provide some examples of these supposedly distinction-free condemnations of all fans.

The people calling out the manbabies routinely qualify the shit out of their comments and it doesn't even slow down the 'cycle of rage' because a lot of the 'actual fans' apparently believe that negative attention - whether it's actually directed at them or not - is preferable to no attention at all.

I think you provided a perfectly good example yourself.

Rian Johnson would've saved himself - and this whole discourse - from a lot of trouble if he had never made the manbaby tweet in the first place, or at least been more specific in that same tweet instead of adding a separate addendum later that ended up not being the one that was heard in all four corners of the earth. It's like those "news" where some person of importance gets charged with something and it's all over the frontpage, but when they turn out to be innocent and/or the charges are dropped, that story is quietly buried somewhere on page 15.

And coincidentally that tweet was made in response to Tran leaving instagram, the reason for which are still unknown to us. So unless Rian knows something we don't, he was just being an ignoramus himself.

[Caseyscott]

Originally Posted by Takeshi666

While I'm otherwise inclined to agree, it's partly the fault of the authors' as well as the readers'.

Like fine, so Tran is attacked by a bunch of racists on Twitter or whatever. That doesn't mean they're fans. They're more likely just racists looking for an excuse to be racists. Failing to make a distinction between them and actual fans is just needlessly insulting the latter, who will then react accordingly and suddenly you got this ridicilous cycle of rage.

There’s no practical method to accurately distinguish or quantify fans from non fans, so that distinction is meaningless. If there are racist individuals directing racist remarks at Tran then that observation can stand alone. I am essentially in agreement with you; calling the fans racist is drinking from an empty glass.

[Takeshi666]

Originally Posted by Caseyscott

There’s no practical method to accurately distinguish or quantify fans from non fans, so that distinction is meaningless. If there are racist individuals directing racist remarks at Tran then that observation can stand alone.

Precisely. Imagine if instead of "manbabies" - which, for the record, is a common insult specifically towards the kind of people who would surround themselves with SW paraphernelia - Rian had simply said "racists" - how differently it would've gone down then?

[koberulz]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeXp...ature=youtu.be

Which mix is which here?

I think I'm more confused now than before I asked.

[Takeshi666]

Originally Posted by koberulz

Which mix is which here?

I think I'm more confused now than before I asked.

The clips in widescreen are the mono mix

I remember Aunt Beru's voice so well I immediately notice the difference

[crissrudd4554]

Originally Posted by koberulz

Which mix is which here?

I think I'm more confused now than before I asked.

The clips with the subtitles has the mono.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Takeshi666

I think you provided a perfectly good example yourself.

Rian Johnson would've saved himself - and this whole discourse - from a lot of trouble if he had never made the manbaby tweet in the first place, or at least been more specific in that same tweet instead of adding a separate addendum later...

It was one minute later.

Originally Posted by Takeshi666

...that ended up not being the one that was heard in all four corners of the earth.

I submit it wasn't heard because the outrage junkies didn't want to hear it.

Rian Johnson's clear, unambiguous disclaimer that he wasn't talking about every fan didn't fit their 'woe is us' narrative so it was ignored.

Originally Posted by Takeshi666

It's like those "news" where some person of importance gets charged with something and it's all over the frontpage, but when they turn out to be innocent and/or the charges are dropped, that story is quietly buried somewhere on page 15.

No, it was actually nothing like that. I've only sampled a relative handful of stories (the first six or eight that come up on Google) and they all mentioned both tweets. Some provided even more context than that.

The only people splashing the first tweet all over the internet while ignoring the others are the outrage junkies who would rather be 'attacked' than not be part of the conversation.

It's kind of sad, really.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by koberulz

I did Google it, I found the 4K77 page and it offered no explanation.

I'm still not sure I understand it even now. There are three 1977 mixes, two of which are labeled "2018 version"? What are the two stereo remixes?

If I want the original theatrical experience, which is the point of the whole thing, which of the first three tracks do I use?

Some of the "original" mixes were recreated, hence the '2018' designation as they're the latest attempts at doing so. But, as people have said, there were several different theatrical mixes for Star Wars so there isn't any one definitive "original theatrical experience".

Criss is correct that as the mono was the last mix to be laid down (70mm mag audio needs time to cure onto the film so it has to be finalised first, several weeks before) it was intended to be the final mix of the film, and would've been the track that most movie-goers actually heard back in the day. Only problem is, mono doesn't tend to blow up skirts when people have a gazillion speakers that they want to see lit up!

The last two mixes were done for home video release, I dunno what was special about 1985 but I can tell you for a fact that the audio was remixed again for the 1993 'Definitive Collection' Laserdiscs. The remixes in general (it was done again for the 1997 special editions, then yet again for the 2004 DVD then yet yet AGAIN for the 2011 Blu-ray) have cherry-picked various parts from the existing mixes, e.g. Aunt Beru's voice isn't the same dubbing as it is in the theatrical mono but they usually contain the tractor beam line from Threepio which was only in the mono mix.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Takeshi666

Shouldn't have made it so easy for them then.

So if the four sentences we're talking about had been in a single tweet rather than in two tweets mere seconds apart you think the outrage junkies would have had a harder time clutching their pearls over the first while completely ignoring the rest?

You don't really believe that, do you?

[Takeshi666]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The last two mixes were done for home video release, I dunno what was special about 1985 but I can tell you for a fact that the audio was remixed again for the 1993 'Definitive Collection' Laserdiscs. The remixes in general (it was done again for the 1997 special editions, then yet again for the 2004 DVD then yet yet AGAIN for the 2011 Blu-ray) have cherry-picked various parts from the existing mixes, e.g. Aunt Beru's voice isn't the same dubbing as it is in the theatrical mono but they usually contain the tractor beam line from Threepio which was only in the mono mix.

The 1985 mix is was created for the Japanese Special Collection Laserdiscs with Ben Burtt's involvement and I think was subsequently used for all the home video releases until the '93 THX remaster. I think it's the first appearance of the tractor beam line outside of the mono mix as well, but it's otherwise mostly the same as the original stereo mix. What the differences between it and that THX mix are, I have no idea. Someone really should make a comprehensive list!

Someone who isn't me, that is.

[Takeshi666]

Originally Posted by octagon

So if the four sentences we're talking about had been in a single tweet rather than in two tweets mere seconds apart you think the outrage junkies would have had a harder time clutching their pearls over the first while completely ignoring the rest?

You don't really believe that, do you?

Yes, yes I do.

Because it'd be a lot harder to take it out of context with a simple screencap.

[crissrudd4554]

Originally Posted by Takeshi666

The 1985 mix is was created for the Japanese Special Collection Laserdiscs with Ben Burtt's involvement and I think was subsequently used for all the home video releases until the '93 THX remaster. I think it's the first appearance of the tractor beam line outside of the mono mix as well, but it's otherwise mostly the same as the original stereo mix. What the differences between it and that THX mix are, I have no idea. Someone really should make a comprehensive list!

Someone who isn't me, that is.

Keep in mind I'm doing most of this by memory and just going by what I've caught across the video releases that I can remember off hand. Yes the '85 mix is more or less the original stereo mix with the tractor beam added. IIRC the '93 mix was strewn from the original 70mm mix. This mix does not have the tractor beam line. Aside from that only a few differences I've noticed with the '93 mix vs the '85 mix. Mostly its aesthetic stuff like additional laser blasts or explosions in certain scenes (the detention block shootout is one). The little sound Chewy makes just before Han says 'Seventeen thousand!' is in this mix but not the '85 mix. Thats really all I can name off hand.

[Takeshi666]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

Yes the '85 mix is more or less the original stereo mix with the tractor beam added. IIRC the '93 mix was strewn from the original 70mm mix. This mix does not have the tractor beam line.

That would explain why I remember it being there before the special editions came out but then going back to watching the older versions only to not find it there; the originals I'd taped off TV all those years ago must've been struck from a version using the '85 mix.

[steel_breeze]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeXp...ature=youtu.be

This was a fantastic video. I'd been told ABOUT the differences between the mono and stereo mixes, but hadn't actually heard them first-hand -- except when I was a kid. While I can't claim to remember the mono mix from seeing the movie in 1977 (when I was six), I definitely remember hearing it on the STORY OF STAR WARS record -- complete with sound effects and dialogue from the film -- which apparently used the mono mix as its source. I must've listened to that record a hundred times, since we didn't have a VCR in my family until 1983.

[koberulz]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Some of the "original" mixes were recreated, hence the '2018' designation as they're the latest attempts at doing so.

Recreated how, from what, why?

But, as people have said, there were several different theatrical mixes for Star Wars so there isn't any one definitive "original theatrical experience".

If the two surround mixes are recreations it seems that of the choices available, only the mono is definitively theatrical though?

So the 2.0 and 5.1 are "draft" mixes, recreated in 2018, the mono is the original final theatrical audio, and the two other stereo tracks are...something else?