Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Blu Titan]

Originally Posted by Sunsu

This is my first post thus far on this thread....although, I have been reading for quite some time.

Has anyone found information on other professional reviews other than blu-ray.com?

I think we are still the only major site with the Star Wars Blu-ray review .

[the_dude]

Mine arrived in the mail this afternoon.

[bboisvert]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Would people stop linking to that debunked "book"?

? Why?

It shows pretty clearly (and with cited secondary sources) that Lucas did not have the Luke/Leia relationship planned out in advance. (Along with a host of other things.)

[DetroitSquirreL]

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id448509859


have a iPad or IPhone ? get this FREE app from Lucas Films...it's an advance sneak peak at the BD extras



Before you bring the Saga home, get an exclusive first look at some of the special features from STAR WARS™: THE COMPLETE SAGA - coming to you on Blu-ray September 16th! The Star Wars Blu-ray: Early Access highlights a varied sampling of bonus materials featured in the collection, including never-before-seen content sourced from the Lucasfilm Archives! Begin to explore the farthest corners of that distant galaxy, and dive deeper into the creation of the Star Wars universe.

Witness the evolution of the wild concepts that became pop culture icons. Celebrate the spirit of innovation that pushed the boundaries of special effects - as described by the men and women who pioneered the new methods that made Star Wars possible. And pull back the curtain on the Lucasfilm Archives to reveal never-before-told stories about the making of the Saga. Offering an insightful cross-section of what the THE COMPLETE SAGA has in store, Star Wars Blu-ray: Early Access is your first look at the most anticipated Blu-ray collection - of all time!

[Dieu]

Originally Posted by rubystone356

I wonder if the people that are against the changes in the movie.. didnt beleive darth when he said that he was luke's father in empire strikes back.

Jacob

I admit it was a shock when I saw ESB (I was 10). I refused to beleive it. And I was disapointed when I saw it was true in ROTJ.

But I always loved the changes (1997 and 2004). Except maybe Jedi Rocks. The 2011 changes is not that a big deal to me.

[Weirded Wonder]

Originally Posted by bboisvert

? Why?

It shows pretty clearly (and with cited secondary sources) that Lucas did not have the Luke/Leia relationship planned out in advance. (Along with a host of other things.)

because George says so... duh...

Target ad ready... waiting to exhale and watch Star Wars...

[iamsometal]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

This proves that you don't give both trilogies the same chance. From an objective standpoint you could argue that the explanations of the force in later episodes "destroy" the magic and mystery of the first three episodes where the jedi just do this amazing stuff - just like some people argue that the midiclorians do just that... I don't share any of those views.

With the symbolism I'm not just talking about the obvious things (Anakin/Lukes hand; Gungens/Ewoks; Droid-control-ship/Death Star; "This is where the fun begins!" by Anakin/Han; "I have a bad feeling about this"; Qui Gons/Bens death, etc. etc.) but rather the jedi-council as representation of the zodiac, the importance of the anima and shadow-archetypes in the two trilogies; the development and foreshadowing of themes like the dark side in Dooku or the cyborg-idea with Grievous; the various grades of dogmatism and dictatorship (even the jedi are dogmatic); the distinction between the living force and fate; the allusions to Kurosawa, Flash Gordon, Gunga-Din, The Searchers, Forbidden Planet, THX-1138, Shakespeare, world-mythology...

Just think about the grand structure that only reveals itself after watching all the movies: In the PT the jedi dominate the sith (in each new episode one new Sith is introduced) - In the OT the sith dominate the jedi (in each new episode one new jedi is introduced)... This reveals pairs of antagonists with different levels of complexity:

Darth Maul (E1) - Obi Wan (E4)
evil vs good. there is no common ground between them. There is no other solution other than one killing the other.

Darth Tyranus (E2) - Yoda (E5)
aprentice vs master. closer connection. there is new theme to cross to the dark side. from here stems Yodas opinion "Once you start down the dark path, FOREVER will it dominate your destiny."

Darth Vader (E3) - Luke (E6)
father vs son. closest connection. there is the new theme to bring someone back from the dark side. That's the wisdom of Luke against the teachings of Yoda. It's weakened without the PT in mind.

If you're to watch it in order of 1 - 6, i gotta say, had i not already seen 4 - 6 hundreds of times, there's no way i would have stuck around through all of 1 - 3. It's mainly because there isn't a single protagonist the audience can learn about the star wars universe with throughout any of the PT films. Besides being the main hero/protagonist in Star Wars, we learn about the universe, the Force, the Jedi, the Empire, everything we need to know, through Luke and his exploits. In TPM, through Anakin, about an hour into the film, we learn about ... midichlorians. And that's about it. Through, i guess Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, we learn about, trade disputes (that make no sense at all), and really, what else about the Star Wars universe do the Jedi learn in Ep. 1 that are basic, fundamental elements of the stories?

Lucas really gives us nothing, other than 2 Jedi making a boat-load of bad decisions and assumptions out of non-knowledge of the universe. How do the Gungans and Naboo people form a symbiant circle? I dunno, it wasn't explained at all. How would a trade federation blockade stop life as we know it on an entire planet that is full of 1) lush vegetation, 2) some insanely advanced power technology in that Naboo castle, 3) huge oceans full of sea creatures, 4) a people with advanced starships that are capable of lightspeed? I dunno, they never explain that either. That bet between Wato and Qui-gon? What the hell was that? Why are the trade federation aliens in league with some dude in a Sith? Not explained. Why can the Jedi run super fast one time, but never again in the whole movie (especially when Obi-Wan needs to in order to help save his mentor from darth maul)? Not even addressed. Why do they need to investigate the trade federation's capture of Naboo, when the SENATE had the Jedi council send 2 Jedi to negotiate the matter? Wouldn't the fact that the senate was willing to put their trust in these 2 jedi mean they would trust them enough to validate the invasion? I dunno, this damn movie just makes NO SENSE. How's a kid supposed to understand this crap, AND come out of the film with a general knowledge of the star wars universe and the Force?

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by the_dude

Mine arrived in the mail this afternoon.

So you have Prime then?

[NexusVerbal]

Originally Posted by bboisvert

? Why?

It shows pretty clearly (and with cited secondary sources) that Lucas did not have the Luke/Leia relationship planned out in advance. (Along with a host of other things.)

You are absolutely correct, sir. Luke's sister was originally supposed to be a female called Nellith. She was supposed to be a new character that would be introduced in Return of the Jedi, but George decided to take a shortcut and scrapped the idea.

There were also supposed to be Two Death Stars orbiting the Empire's Captial Planet, Had Abbadon. A simple google search will reveal to anyone who is interested more original ideas that were scrapped. And they were scrapped because, at this point, all George could think of was the money . . . and toys. Lots and lots of toys. If George had stuck to his guns, maybe Return of the Jedi could have been the film to top the Empire Strikes Back. Sadly, that wasn't the frakkin' case.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by ryan4blu

I think george had it all planned out anyways, he always knew how he wanted the story to go. i think it was more of leia making han jealous and that she had feelings for him. remember their little tiff in the hallways of the rebel base...

just my 2 cents

But the low budget movie they intended to make in-between Episode IV & V: Splinter of the Mind's Eye expanded on their relationship. So Lucas didn't really have any grand plan.

[kurtlingle]

Originally Posted by happydood

Well, aesthetic reasons for claiming they were a failure aside, I'd say The Prequels failed because enough people didn't think they were effective. Lucas effectively split his fan base in half.

BUT... at least half his fan base did like them according to review aggregates and these very forums we enjoy. Lucas used to enjoy a much better reputation. In that sense, The Prequels were a failure. The original movies had become such a cultural touchstone that it was easy to forget the 2 and 3 star reviews they got when they first came out.

My kids love the PT and think they are better than the OT.
I think kids enjoy the PT and that is fine - I would not call them a failure.

They all were/are blockbuster films hitting the 300m mark and sell well on disk. If the kids love them, then they will rebuy them when they grow up and we'll see how they do long term.

[happydood]

Originally Posted by iamsometal

If you're to watch it in order of 1 - 6, i gotta say, had i not already seen 4 - 6 hundreds of times, there's no way i would have stuck around through all of 1 - 3. It's mainly because there isn't a single protagonist the audience can learn about the star wars universe with throughout any of the PT films. Besides being the main hero/protagonist in Star Wars, we learn about the universe, the Force, the Jedi, the Empire, everything we need to know, through Luke and his exploits. In TPM, through Anakin, about an hour into the film, we learn about ... midichlorians. And that's about it. Through, i guess Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, we learn about, trade disputes (that make no sense at all), and really, what else about the Star Wars universe do the Jedi learn in Ep. 1 that are basic, fundamental elements of the stories?

Lucas really gives us nothing, other than 2 Jedi making a boat-load of bad decisions and assumptions out of non-knowledge of the universe. How do the Gungans and Naboo people form a symbiant circle? I dunno, it wasn't explained at all. How would a trade federation blockade stop life as we know it on an entire planet that is full of 1) lush vegetation, 2) some insanely advanced power technology in that Naboo castle, 3) huge oceans full of sea creatures, 4) a people with advanced starships that are capable of lightspeed? I dunno, they never explain that either. That bet between Wato and Qui-gon? What the hell was that? Why are the trade federation aliens in league with some dude in a Sith? Not explained. Why can the Jedi run super fast one time, but never again in the whole movie (especially when Obi-Wan needs to in order to help save his mentor from darth maul)? Not even addressed. Why do they need to investigate the trade federation's capture of Naboo, when the SENATE had the Jedi council send 2 Jedi to negotiate the matter? Wouldn't the fact that the senate was willing to put their trust in these 2 jedi mean they would trust them enough to validate the invasion? I dunno, this damn movie just makes NO SENSE. How's a kid supposed to understand this crap, AND come out of the film with a general knowledge of the star wars universe and the Force?

You can hate the execution of the prequels, but I don't know that you can really argue plot logic in light of the many inconsistencies of the old trilogy and in this established universe. Why does Luke's hand not bleed in Empire like the guy in the Cantina in Star Wars? Why after having the Death Star destroyed through the smallest of Achille's Heel's in Star Wars, would the Empire give it's enemies an even bigger target in Jedi on the Endor Moon? How is Ben Kenobi more powerful after being cut down and what does he do to show it? Lucas doesn't seem to work that way. The stories have what is necessary to move them from point to point even if it's not always done smoothly.

[happydood]

Originally Posted by kurtlingle

My kids love the PT and think they are better than the OT.
I think kids enjoy the PT and that is fine - I would not call them a failure.

They all were/are blockbuster films hitting the 300m mark and sell well on disk. If the kids love them, then they will rebuy them when they grow up and we'll see how they do long term.

I'm on the side that likes them and I think time is going to be lot kinder to them then some would have you believe. Give it ten years. But right now, there is as much vitriol toward them in the mainstream press (let alone on niche sights like this one and the fan sites) to undermine that financial success as there is praise. Notice I don't use the phrase apology in terms of 'Apologist.' I dislike the word used in pop culture reference because I don't know that many people actually really knew what it meant before it became associated with George Lucas. I digress. I honestly don't think there's much in them that is any worse than anything cheesy in the old trilogy aside from some truly awkward moments in Phantom Menace.

[fat_rancor_keeper]

I feel like the hate toward TPM has already subsided a bit. (I could be wrong)

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

This proves that you don't give both trilogies the same chance. From an objective standpoint you could argue that the explanations of the force in later episodes "destroy" the magic and mystery of the first three episodes where the jedi just do this amazing stuff - just like some people argue that the midiclorians do just that... I don't share any of those views.

I have proven no such thing. You just find ways to twist any opinion that anyone has that isn't in favor of the PT to argue it not being valid, objective or whatever. I went into the prequels, particuarly Episode I (at which point going into it I had no basis for assuming that the film would be disapointing) with high hopes of it being a good film worthy of the Star Wars title. I was also excited to see it. The trailers had me excited, and I was hoping for a fun experience. Some aspects were decent, but many, many others were disapointing.



And further more you really aren't being "objective" with your explanation. Instead you are now shoe-horning in your own "vision" on how the prequels should be viewed upon this that may not (and probably doesn't) line up with Lucas's vision. If Lucas wanted the force to be mysterious to the average viewer for the prequels, then why the hell did he make Episode IV first, which pretty much starts out with an explanation of the force, rather than starting out with Episodes 1-3 to begin with? Was the audience, upon seeing Episode 1 for the first time, supposed to just know to go out of their way to "supress" the prior existing knowledge of the force and "pretend" that what they are seeing is mysterious, new and unknown to them? And what about the inside jokes like Watto's comment towards Qui Gon when he tries to use the Jedi mind trick on Watto? That was obviously intended for people who already had this knowledge.

Sorry, you are just grasping at straws here and are making crap up to find some way to hap-hazardly debunk any legitimate negative view of the PT.

With the symbolism I'm not just talking about the obvious things (Anakin/Lukes hand; Gungens/Ewoks; Droid-control-ship/Death Star; "This is where the fun begins!" by Anakin/Han; "I have a bad feeling about this"; Qui Gons/Bens death, etc. etc.) but rather the jedi-council as representation of the zodiac, the importance of the anima and shadow-archetypes in the two trilogies; the development and foreshadowing of themes like the dark side in Dooku or the cyborg-idea with Grievous; the various grades of dogmatism and dictatorship (even the jedi are dogmatic); the distinction between the living force and fate; the allusions to Kurosawa, Flash Gordon, Gunga-Din, The Searchers, Forbidden Planet, THX-1138, Shakespeare, world-mythology...

Most of that stuff I am well aware, have been for some time, and became aware of it either on my first viewing of these films or shortly there-after. A few things I didn't know about (i.e the zodiac signs in the council), and frankly in the case of the zodiac signs, I really just don't friggin' care.

I am aware of the foreshadowing of Vader via Dooku and Grievous, two characters that were poorly handled in these films. They were both more or less after-thoughts. I don't think Lucas had either of these characters conceived at the time of writing Episode 1, and I don't think he had conceived Grevious at the time of writing Episode II. In Ep II, we are just hap-harzardly told that Dooku is a former Jedi, and we don't even "meet" him until half way through the movie. If Lucas wanted to handle that properly, we should have seen Dooku as a Jedi in Episode 1, so that we would actually give a flying crap about him in Episode II when he's revealed to be the enemy.

And Grevious was handled even worse than Dooku. Suddenly, from the get-go in Episode III, he is the major, serious threat, second only to Dooku, but we had never even heard of this character prior to that point. And he is killed pretty early in the movie. We never really develop any kind of attachment to the character. He's just a disposable villain.

If the OT had been handled similarly, then we never would have even heard of Han's history with Jabba the Hutt in Eps 4 and 5, or where he was being taken at the end of Ep 5, and then at the beginning of Ep 6 we would see Luke and the gang trying to rescue him from Jabba, and the back story would be quickly rushed by us either in the opening crawl or in some quick, forced dialogue to explain what's going on.

Grevious perhaps should have at least been in Epsiode II, perhaps in a pre-cyborg form, defeated, but then mysteriously shows up as a cyborg in Ep III. That would have been better foreshadowing, and better character development.


I could go on with more examples, but I feel I've made my point.

Look, all of this symbolic stuff is all well and good. I'm more than aware of most of it, and it's interesting in it's own right. But it doesn't make up for the problems with the bad acting, characters thrown at us out of nowhere, and the array of other issues with these films. That's the problem.... the presentation. It's like taking a fancy steak dinner with all of the trimmings and serving it on a dirty trach can lid. The symbolism is the dinner, the acting, character develop, manner in which characters are introduced, etc, are the dirty trash can lid. No one in their right mind, no matter how much they appreciate a fancy steak, is going to want to eat one off of a dirty trash can lid. That's how many of us feel about the PT films.

Now, if you are happy with them, fine. If you either find the presentation adequate or if the problems with it just don't bother you because you are just SO into the symbolism that those things are what "float your boat" and give you the most interest, then fine. More power to you. But for many the presentation sucked, and the symbolism isn't going to do anything to make up for it.

Just think about the grand structure that only reveals itself after watching all the movies: In the PT the jedi dominate the sith (in each new episode one new Sith is introduced) - In the OT the sith dominate the jedi (in each new episode one new jedi is introduced)... This reveals pairs of antagonists with different levels of complexity:

Darth Maul (E1) - Obi Wan (E4)
evil vs good. there is no common ground between them. There is no other solution other than one killing the other.

Darth Tyranus (E2) - Yoda (E5)
aprentice vs master. closer connection. there is new theme to cross to the dark side. from here stems Yodas opinion "Once you start down the dark path, FOREVER will it dominate your destiny."

Darth Vader (E3) - Luke (E6)
father vs son. closest connection. there is the new theme to bring someone back from the dark side. That's the wisdom of Luke against the teachings of Yoda. It's weakened without the PT in mind.

Yeah, and I'm aware of this as well. It still doesn't make up for the problems with the PT. I could write another 3 to 5 paragraphs about this, but I don't think it would really make a difference.

Basically your arguement is that the ONLY legimately objective point of view is your own, and anyone who doesn't 100% agree with you on every little detail about Star Wars is not being objective. I just have to love the hypocracy and the irony.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by iamsometal

If you're to watch it in order of 1 - 6, i gotta say, had i not already seen 4 - 6 hundreds of times, there's no way i would have stuck around through all of 1 - 3. It's mainly because there isn't a single protagonist the audience can learn about the star wars universe with throughout any of the PT films. Besides being the main hero/protagonist in Star Wars, we learn about the universe, the Force, the Jedi, the Empire, everything we need to know, through Luke and his exploits. In TPM, through Anakin, about an hour into the film, we learn about ... midichlorians. And that's about it. Through, i guess Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, we learn about, trade disputes (that make no sense at all), and really, what else about the Star Wars universe do the Jedi learn in Ep. 1 that are basic, fundamental elements of the stories?

Lucas really gives us nothing, other than 2 Jedi making a boat-load of bad decisions and assumptions out of non-knowledge of the universe. How do the Gungans and Naboo people form a symbiant circle? I dunno, it wasn't explained at all. How would a trade federation blockade stop life as we know it on an entire planet that is full of 1) lush vegetation, 2) some insanely advanced power technology in that Naboo castle, 3) huge oceans full of sea creatures, 4) a people with advanced starships that are capable of lightspeed? I dunno, they never explain that either. That bet between Wato and Qui-gon? What the hell was that? Why are the trade federation aliens in league with some dude in a Sith? Not explained. Why can the Jedi run super fast one time, but never again in the whole movie (especially when Obi-Wan needs to in order to help save his mentor from darth maul)? Not even addressed. Why do they need to investigate the trade federation's capture of Naboo, when the SENATE had the Jedi council send 2 Jedi to negotiate the matter? Wouldn't the fact that the senate was willing to put their trust in these 2 jedi mean they would trust them enough to validate the invasion? I dunno, this damn movie just makes NO SENSE. How's a kid supposed to understand this crap, AND come out of the film with a general knowledge of the star wars universe and the Force?

Tht's pretty one-sided argument too. You could find equally unexplained points in the OT if you look for them. Why did Han drop Jabbas shipment? We never saw that? Why is the empire so evil and why is there a rebellion? Who is this Senator Organa? He seems to be important but is never shown! What is the dark side of the force? How did Lukes father get killed and why did Vader betray Obi Wan?

The taxation of trade routes is important because it paves the ground for the smugglers and pirates in later episodes like your beloved Han Solo. You don't have to explain the force because most of the protagonists are jedi and know about that. You actually see what jedi can do and they are referencing to the force multiple times. With the midichlorians it is even explained how they can use the force. The important thing is THAT the naboo and the gungans have a symbiotic relationship and not so much HOW. Just like you need to know THAT Han dropped his shipment but not how exactly that happened or if he could have avoided that... When you watch Episode 1 it is pretty clear that the Gungans provide the energy and the Naboo technology and political representation. You can SEE it - you don't have to overexplain things...

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by happydood

I'm on the side that likes them, and I think time is going to be lot kinder to them then some would have you believe. Give it ten years.

Well, this year marks the 12th anniversary of "Phantom Menace" being released, and next year marks ten for "Attack of the Clones".

But right now, there is as much vitriol toward them in the mainstream press (let alone on niche sights like this one and the fan sites), to undermine that financial success as there is praise.

Well, I think a large part of that is for many years, fans of every sort had their own opinions about what the backstory should be, and George obviously felt differently. What I don't understand is how folks got this idea in the first place, of Anakin being some "perfect example" of the Jedi ranks. The original films don't say anything about him to that effect, aside from Obi-Wan's remark about his pilot skills.

I honestly don't think there's much in them that is any worse than anything cheesy in the old trilogy, aside from some truly awkward moments in Phantom Menace.

Agreed, for the most part.

[iamsometal]

Originally Posted by happydood

You can hate the execution of the prequels, but I don't know that you can really argue plot logic in light of the many inconsistencies of the old trilogy and in this established universe. Why does Luke's hand not bleed in Empire like the guy in the Cantina in Star Wars? Why after having the Death Star destroyed through the smallest of Achille's Heel's in Star Wars, would the Empire give it's enemies an even bigger target in Jedi on the Endor Moon? How is Ben Kenobi more powerful after being cut down and what does he do to show it? Lucas doesn't seem to work that way. The stories have what is necessary to move them from point to point even if it's not always done smoothly.

I'm not saying the OT doesn't have some plot holes, alot of great films do. What i'm saying is very little, if anything in TPM makes any sense. Or in AOTC for that matter. I guess ROTS sort of makes a little sense (kill Dooku, kill Greivous, end the war. Palpy wants to turn Anakin to the dark side through fear of the loss of a loved one). I've never called Lucas a great writer, but TPM and AOTC are just haphazard messes from beginning to end. They don't really establish the lore the way the original Star Wars did, while maintaining a plot that makes a bare minimum amount of sense. That's all i'm saying.

And holy crap, does ROTS look freaking gorgeous on blu-ray! I wish there was an isolated score and sound effect track so i could just turn off all of the dialogue.

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

Gaudy may be more his style but there's no denying that scene sticks out like a very sore thumb. Not only is the CGI dated, but it comes from nowhere and just (as another user mentioned) stops the entire scene to have this musical number. It's jarring. It doesn't help that the song itself is just totally awful and the stupid CGI characters look at the camera and break the 4th wall.

Lucas knows and says as much in the documentary when he says he wanted to throw in a musical number there. The CGI does need to be updated, though, I agree. And it no doubt will be.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by Uxi

I wouldn't have chosen Jedi Rocks but let's not pretend Lapti Nek didn't stink.

The MUSIC of Lapti Nek was fine. In fact, much like the cantina music in episode IV, it sounded "otherworldly." I'll give you the muppets were terrible. The problem with Jedi Rocks, besides the horrible CGI, is that the music just sounds like a typical jazz band using trumpets, trumbones, and saxophones. It sounded like something the band Chicago would have done back in the 70's.