24 fps?

[rarredoa]

Hi all, I am interested in the samsung PN50A650 plasma set. I've been noticing that many people on this forum talk a lot about 24fps and how it's supposed to be better than 60 Hz or even 120 Hz (at least that's the way I understood it.) Does the PN50A650 do 24 fps? What does 24 fps really do and what's a 3:2 pulldown really mean? Sorry if this has already been asked.

[Chevypower]

all movies (not TV shows) are filmed in 24 frames per second. Blu Ray takes advantage of it, by showing films natively in 24, not converted to 30. Native is always better. 24 isn't enough for fast movement, such as real live sports or anything, so 24 isn't suitable for TV. There is talk that movies will eventually go 48fps. But to answer your question. To get native 24 frames, you need a Blu Ray player and TV connected through HDMI to support it, and make sure it's set on those settings.

[rarredoa]

Originally Posted by Chevypower

all movies (not TV shows) are filmed in 24 frames per second. Blu Ray takes advantage of it, by showing films natively in 24, not converted to 30. Native is always better. 24 isn't enough for fast movement, such as real live sports or anything, so 24 isn't suitable for TV. There is talk that movies will eventually go 48fps. But to answer your question. To get native 24 frames, you need a Blu Ray player and TV connected through HDMI to support it, and make sure it's set on those settings.

I have a PS3 to onkyo 605 to TV all via HDMI and a blu-ray PC to TV via HDMI as well, see specs below. Will the PN50A650 TV make all this happen? Will any HDTV do?

[Chevypower]

Not any HDTV will do it, but I believe your Samsung A650 will do it. The only PS3 that will not output 24p is the original 20GB version. All current versions (including the popular 40GB) will do it. As for the sound system, your Onkyo 605 should pass through the full 1080 24p signal to your TV. So, let's hope you don't have the 20GB PS3?

[hagar852]

Originally Posted by Chevypower

Not any HDTV will do it, but I believe your Samsung A650 will do it. The only PS3 that will not output 24p is the original 20GB version. All current versions (including the popular 40GB) will do it. As for the sound system, your Onkyo 605 should pass through the full 1080 24p signal to your TV. So, let's hope you don't have the 20GB PS3?

You are wrong about that.. I have the original 20gb PS3 and it does output 1080/24p just fine..

[rarredoa]

Originally Posted by Chevypower

Not any HDTV will do it, but I believe your Samsung A650 will do it. The only PS3 that will not output 24p is the original 20GB version. All current versions (including the popular 40GB) will do it. As for the sound system, your Onkyo 605 should pass through the full 1080 24p signal to your TV. So, let's hope you don't have the 20GB PS3?

It's a 60GB PS3 ... by the way, i don't remember seeing a 24p spec on that TV. Is there another way of representing this capability? What should one look for when researching a TV?

[Chevypower]

I can't find anything to confirm that TV does 24p... i can only think of calling Samsung tech support? I would be REALLY surprised if it didn't do it... but looks like Samsung don't seem to think it's important enough to promote 24p, whereas other brands do. Try switching your PS3 to output 24p through HDMI setting ON (not automatic) and see if your TV displays the picture... it should confirm if it accepts, and revert back to the original settings if no picture would be displayed.

Just saw you dont have the TV yet... if you are set on a plasma, get the Panasonic PZ800. If you are open minded to LCD, have a look at the Sony XBR6!

I take that back the larger new XBRs are not out yet. Look at Sony Z4100, W4100 and V4100 (all do FULL HD with 24p)

[My_Two_Cents]

There is a sticky on this at the top of the page. That being said, I don't see your model on the list.

Edit: Just found a thread over at AVS where it was confirmed this set uses 3:2 pulldown for 1080p/24fps.

[lv426]

To show the following correctly

Films 24fps shown at 48hz,72hz,96hz,120hz
UK TV 25fps shown at 50hz,100hz
US TV 30fps shown at 60hz,120hz

as you see the hz or fields are usually double what the frames per second are

with 30fps each frame is shown twice to make 60, ie 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4 and so on

3:2 pulldown is how you get 24 to show 60, if you use the example above you would only get 48 so this time its show a frame 3 time, next frame 2 times, then 3 times, ie 1,1,1,2,2,3,3,3,4,4

what 3:2 causes is telecine judder you hear most people talk about on panning shots

There are some TV's that are 120hz and you would think, great its a multiple of 24, but it does 3:2 to get to 60 then doubles up to 120, so watch out for that.

Note:- fps is different to hz (fields per second) there is no TV that shows 24fps at 24hz, 48hz is the minimum it will show it

[Chevypower]

that's because the Hz was 50 or 60 for PAL / NTSC respectively, as each frame is built up of two half-frames (fields) as it is interlaced. Can't you watch a progressive show scan in 24hz, 25hz and 30hz?

[lv426]

Originally Posted by Chevypower

that's because the Hz was 50 or 60 for PAL / NTSC respectively, as each frame is built up of two half-frames (fields) as it is interlaced. Can't you watch a progressive show scan in 24hz, 25hz and 30hz?

The refresh rate would be to slow for your eyes, you would see flicker

[bmr76]

Yes the 650 can do 24p, im at work right now and just checked the settings on our demo. Samsung 52 650 series connected to a sony bdp-s300, output on sony blu ray set at 1080p/24p and the picture looks great. I believe any current 120hz tv can do 24p if isnt listed as a feature.

[Pelican170]

Originally Posted by Chevypower

I can't find anything to confirm that TV does 24p... i can only think of calling Samsung tech support? I would be REALLY surprised if it didn't do it... but looks like Samsung don't seem to think it's important enough to promote 24p, whereas other brands do. Try switching your PS3 to output 24p through HDMI setting ON (not automatic) and see if your TV displays the picture... it should confirm if it accepts, and revert back to the original settings if no picture would be displayed.

Just saw you dont have the TV yet... if you are set on a plasma, get the Panasonic PZ800. If you are open minded to LCD, have a look at the Sony XBR6!

I take that back the larger new XBRs are not out yet. Look at Sony Z4100, W4100 and V4100 (all do FULL HD with 24p)

I was once told that just because your TV will "accept" the 24p signal, doesnt mean it is outputting that and that alot of tv's will do the pulldown itself, and not truly be showing 24p... any truth to this?

[rarredoa]

Originally Posted by bmr76

Yes the 650 can do 24p, im at work right now and just checked the settings on our demo. Samsung 52 650 series connected to a sony bdp-s300, output on sony blu ray set at 1080p/24p and the picture looks great. I believe any current 120hz tv can do 24p if isnt listed as a feature.

Does this mean the 50" model will do true 24p?... What does a 3:2 pulldown really mean/do?

[bmr76]

I appologize, I was looking at the 52 lcd, re read your post, and its the plasma your asking about. I dont have that model at the store, so I dont know. My Bad

I walked over and looked at my 450 series plasma, only one we display by samsung and the side promo material on the tv lists 24p real cinema mode, so I would think the higher end 650 can do it as well. Hope that helps. You could call a retailer with that tv and have one of the sales guy go look at the left side of tv and see if its listed on the promo material supplied by samsung.

[bmr76]

3:2 pull down is basically a way for a 24p source to be converted to 30 frames per second, which most 60hz tvs can only display. Its a system of duplicating the same frame in a certain order.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by rarredoa

Hi all, I am interested in the samsung PN50A650 plasma set. I've been noticing that many people on this forum talk a lot about 24fps and how it's supposed to be better than 60 Hz or even 120 Hz (at least that's the way I understood it.) Does the PN50A650 do 24 fps? What does 24 fps really do and what's a 3:2 pulldown really mean? Sorry if this has already been asked.

All Samsung Plasma's so far that have a 1080P/24 input use a 3:2 pulldown process to convert the image to 60HZ. A few of the Samsung LCD screens will bypass 3:2 pulldown and refresh at 5:5 pulldown (120HZ).

[rarredoa]

So is there much of a difference between 24 fps-direct versus 24 fps with 3:2pulldown, or does 3:2 nullify the 24fps altogether?

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by rarredoa

So is there much of a difference between 24 fps-direct versus 24 fps with 3:2pulldown, or does 3:2 nullify the 24fps altogether?

If the TV accepts a 24p output from the player but then applies 3:2 to convert it to 60 Hz rate, yes, it just turns it back to the 3/2 start-stop motion

I'll quote myself because I'm not going to retype all this

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

If your player has a 1080i 60Hz output, the original 24 fps cadence is given a 3:2 60 Hz interlaced cadence and the display has to deinterlace that resulting in a 3:2 frames repeated 60fps progressie sequence . Of the 24 frames in a second, the 12 odd ones (1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23) are repeated 3 times (3 x 12 = 36) and the 12 even ones (2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24) are repeate 2 times (2 x 12 = 24) (or viceversa) to get 60 frames per second (36 + 24 = 60). If the player itself outputs 1080p 60Hz, the player does the repeated frames instead. Using pause and still step functions gives you 24 frames because the player shows you 1 frame every time you press the button and of course the counter advances 1 second after 24 frames have gone by.


So yes you are geting the complete 24 frames reconstructed, but on a 60Hz display they're not being played at the 24 frames per second smoothness of each frame lasting on screen the same amount of time. Instead they go: start stop start stop forever (or 3/2/3/2/3/2 in relative duration).

A 24p output player into a 24p input and capable display eliminates this "irregularity" in motion/frame rate and that's their advantage: you get the 24 fps at 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2 (smooth) repeats for one second for 48Hz displays or 3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3 for one second for 72Hz displays, 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 for one second for 96Hz displays, and 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5 for one second for 120Hz displays, instead of 2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3 (start/stop/start/stop etc) for one second for 60Hz displays.

There could be also some 72/96/120 Hz displays that could take the 60Hz 3:2 cadence from a player's movie playback, apply inverse 3:2 getting back the 24 fps motion and then doing the frame repeats into their 72/96/120 refreshes, but with Blu-ray players outputting 24p I don't know if TV manufacturers are including that (for example they could do it to other sources too like VHS/DVD/TV, etc playing movies) too.

As with every piece of electronics you buy you have to research throuroughly exactly what it does.

[HDTV1080P]

Yes a few brands offer reverse 3:2 pulldown for film based 480I and 1080I material. It still is better to bypass all 3:2 pulldown and get the signal directly from the BLU-RAY 1080P/24 source.