Sony Black Crush on late-2014 / early-2015 BDs

[Naiera]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

In the end my point is opinion enters into this a lot more than you guys admit. You're trying to portray it as a factual problem, but it's not.

You're so totally wrong about this.

[Wernski]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

We understand the ideas involved. The problem is that detail isn't always meant to be seen.

If the detail made it to the DVD, the detail was on the film. If it was on the film, it was visible. So it should be there on the blu-ray as well. The blu-ray is the first instance of the information being erased.

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I get the black crush concerns, but in the end the Polish BD and general DVD look too bright and blown-out, that detail doesn't look like it was meant to be there in my opinion. Some screens of the Sony BD definitely look too dark, but I don't remember them looking that dark when I watched the BD, so that could be a calibration issue.

I believe you're still conflating overall brightness of the image with black crush, despite them being two distinct issues (and this thread is only about the latter). Any of the films referenced here may or may not be "too bright." That's certainly debatable, but it's not what this thread is about. You mention calibration issues, but there is no possible calibration issue that would make the information that was lost to crushed blacks visible. You can calibrate your player and your TV until it is insanely over-bright, to the point your neighbors go blind by the sheer amount of white heat blasting out between your window shades, and the details in the crushed blacks will still not be there. It has been erased from the blu-ray to a solid, single color (black).

I suspect (apologies if I'm mistaken; I'm only guessing based on what you've written) that you're assuming an image can only be simply lighter or darker, to varying shades or degrees. I.e. you have a pretty dark image, you darken it a bit more, and now the blacks are crushed. And that example is certainly possible - and I'll even go so far as to say that probably is what happened here. But the issue is actually more complicated than that. You can brighten the brights and darken the darks. You can darken the mids and brighten the darks and keep the brights the same. And every other possible combination. So if Sony (or preferably the cinematographer... but if it wasn't supervised by him or the director, we're probably talking about the opinion of the guy doing the encode for Sony) wanted that shot from Whiplash to be darker, they could make everything in the image darker without crushing the blacks. The debate about whether that shot should be darker or not can go on 'till the cows come home, but it doesn't matter to the issue at hand, because the blacks didn't have to be crushed either way.

I haven't seen the Escape from NY blu, so I'm only addressing it based on the references in this thread... but assuming it is overly bright, perhaps even to the point of having white crush, it could have been darkened to its proper levels without crushing any blacks.

My GUESS as to what's happening is that they're just not paying that close attention to the levels of their blu-rays. So they made it a bit darker without looking at the scenes with deep darkness and noticing that they were crushing the blacks. So we have what we've got now. It's either a case of A) Sony making the blus darker unintentionally, and it's a simple case of some step in their encoding process coming out a little too dark, and they just need to bump it back up. Or B) Sony looking at some shots, thinking like you that maybe they're a little too bright or overexposed, and so bringing the film down a few notches, without noticing that they're also crushing blacks (probably judging based on a scene without those dark areas without then seeing what it's done to the scenes with them). Because if they did notice, they could have raised the blacks up a bit while still darkening the image to their liking.* Only the guy at Sony could tell us if it's A or B. But in either scenario, the blacks don't have to be crushed, and yet they are. That's the very addressable problem they should fix.

*Even breaking it down to "blacks," "mids" and "brights" is an oversimplification... it's really more of a connected spectrum than a set of three categories. But you get the idea. There's a wide range of ways to address how light or dark different parts of the image are beyond a single scale of "brightness up or down."

In the end my point is opinion enters into this a lot more than you guys admit. You're trying to portray it as a factual problem, but it's not.

Absolutely, the overall brightness/darkness is a matter of opinion. Some of the shots I've seen posted, like the My Best Friend's Wedding one, looks too dark to me. But that's subjective. Even if we hash it out and we arrive at a general consensus, the majority of people could be wrong.
However I think it is fairly factual that the blacks have been crushed, and they shouldn't be. If those areas of the film were meant to be pitch solid black, that's how they'd have shot the film. But since the filmmakers left that information visible on the film, why would it be right to crush them now for the blu-ray release only?

[jscoggins]

Bravo, Wernski. Amazing post.

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by Wernski

You can calibrate your player and your TV until it is insanely over-bright, to the point your neighbors go blind by the sheer amount of white heat blasting out between your window shades, and the details in the crushed blacks will still not be there. It has been erased from the blu-ray to a solid, single color (black).

1000x yes!!! This has been my point all along.

Regardless of whether a certain transfer is "too bright" or not, there is a huge amount of image information being lost here. Make the BD of THE INTERVIEW as artificially bright as you want on your home setup, you will see nothing in the black areas. They're not dark, they're absolutely, evenly, pitch black, with zero image information hidden in the shadows. That's simply unnatural, especially when all that information is there in the DVD/Netflix/UltraViolet/HDclips used in bonus features.

[GasmaskAvenger]

I love The Interview but yeah, someone at Sony goofed up the contrast.

Wasn't as noticeable when I watched my copy of Fury though.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Wernski

I suspect (apologies if I'm mistaken; I'm only guessing based on what you've written) that you're assuming an image can only be simply lighter or darker, to varying shades or degrees. I.e. you have a pretty dark image, you darken it a bit more, and now the blacks are crushed. And that example is certainly possible - and I'll even go so far as to say that probably is what happened here. But the issue is actually more complicated than that. You can brighten the brights and darken the darks. You can darken the mids and brighten the darks and keep the brights the same. And every other possible combination. So if Sony (or preferably the cinematographer... but if it wasn't supervised by him or the director, we're probably talking about the opinion of the guy doing the encode for Sony) wanted that shot from Whiplash to be darker, they could make everything in the image darker without crushing the blacks. The debate about whether that shot should be darker or not can go on 'till the cows come home, but it doesn't matter to the issue at hand, because the blacks didn't have to be crushed either way.

Like I said, I understand what black crush is. I just disagreed Fury has crush, since those pure black areas look like they were meant to be pure black to me. I guess your argument is they come from the same master, so the detail is supposed to be there if it's there on any format. I guess that makes some sense, I'll keep that in mind.

Either way I watched Fury and it didn't look too dark to me at all. I had no idea there was an issue until I saw these threads. I definitely don't remember the inside-the-tank stuff looking as dark as the caps. I remember seeing Lebouf's facial expressions and whatnot. I doubt the rental version was different so I don't know what to say at this point. If I ever buy Fury I'll reevaluate.

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Like I said, I understand what black crush is. I just disagreed Fury has crush, since those pure black areas look like they were meant to be pure black to me. I guess your argument is they come from the same master, so the detail is supposed to be there if it's there on any format. I guess that makes some sense, I'll keep that in mind.

I honestly don't understand how anyone could possibly think the Sony version looks in any way 'correct' in the comparison below. Almost everything is black! And this is exactly how it looks on my calibrated display. Upping the brightness on it just makes the blacks go gray, they don't show more detail.


http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/114853/


In all the images I've seen, the Polish version looks pretty spot on in terms of contrast/black level. It only appears washed out because the Sony has insane black levels, so the human eye perceives it as having less visual 'pop'. At least with the Polish version, if you really wanted you could lower the brightness a little to crush the blacks to get more 'pop' and you'd still be left with plenty of shadow detail. But you can't get more detail from the Sony one.

I'm just frustrated as it was one of my favourite films of 2014, and I would have to have both discs to get the extras along with the superior video quality. It ends up becoming a rather pricey Blu-ray.

[Blu-21]

You wouldn't think modern releases would have to put up with mastering flaws like heavy black crush, weak bit rates and other types of filtering. I noticed Gravity in 2D was quite underwhelming too, not because of black crush, but because the image didn't look as good as it could have in general.

[Clark Kent]

There are creative reasons why a cinematographer may desire black crush and reduced shadow delineation in the picture. That is very likely not the reason for these systemic problems seen in recent Blu-rays from Sony. Someone in the mastering and/or authoring chain is doing something wrong.

For DVD, Blu-ray or digital copy questions, you can reach Sony Pictures Home Entertainment Customer Service directly at consumer@SPHECustomerSupport.sony.com or 1-800-860-2878.

[wesslan]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

I honestly don't understand how anyone could possibly think the Sony version looks in any way 'correct' in the comparison below. Almost everything is black! And this is exactly how it looks on my calibrated display. Upping the brightness on it just makes the blacks go gray, they don't show more detail.


http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/114853/


In all the images I've seen, the Polish version looks pretty spot on in terms of contrast/black level. It only appears washed out because the Sony has insane black levels, so the human eye perceives it as having less visual 'pop'. At least with the Polish version, if you really wanted you could lower the brightness a little to crush the blacks to get more 'pop' and you'd still be left with plenty of shadow detail. But you can't get more detail from the Sony one.

I'm just frustrated as it was one of my favourite films of 2014, and I would have to have both discs to get the extras along with the superior video quality. It ends up becoming a rather pricey Blu-ray.

And as many others have said, the US BD doesn't look that way for many including me so stop juding one title based on some screenshotcomparison shots. If it looked that way every professional reviews would notice.....

I'm still waiting for more comparisons

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by wesslan

And as many others have said, the US BD doesn't look that way for many including me so stop juding one title based on some screenshotcomparison shots. If it looked that way every professional reviews would notice.....

I'm still waiting for more comparisons

US BD vs Taiwan BD
http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleich...D=2290#auswahl

US BD vs US DVD
http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleich...ess=#vergleich

See also the first post in this thread for a few more.

The US BD comes out with massively crushed blacks in all comparisons.

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by wesslan

And as many others have said, the US BD doesn't look that way for many including me so stop juding one title based on some screenshotcomparison shots. If it looked that way every professional reviews would notice.....

I'm still waiting for more comparisons

Any differences in how it looks are down to how people have their display calibrated. The disc ultimately looks how it looks, one copy is exactly the same as the next, so it can't look technically different in appearance for people. The link I posted has 9 comparisons listed at the top of the image, just click the links if you want to see more comparisons:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comp...4853/picture:0

Again, the Sony looks exactly like that on my calibrated display. But I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall a bit now. Why have no other 'professional reviews' noticed the issues with the other discs yet then either?

[BONKERS]

Originally Posted by wesslan

And as many others have said, the US BD doesn't look that way for many including me so stop juding one title based on some screenshotcomparison shots. If it looked that way every professional reviews would notice.....

I'm still waiting for more comparisons

It doesn't look like that? That's hilarious. Just because you don't notice it, =/= it exists. It EXISTS. This is a fact. Just look at the comparison I made (which was uploaded on screenshotcomparisons.com. Which btw is just a hosting site to make comparisons. It's not any independent party doing their own comparisons. It's users) by clipping the PL blu-ray to match the US Blu-Ray.

That detail is clipped away, impossible to reverse. But the latter isn't so.

*My link and prior post is pending approval* http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/115518 (Link edited in. It's not exact, and the compression of both BDs is different on this frame you can see. But you can see that it IS nearly 1:1)

[BONKERS]

DP *ignore

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Wernski

If the detail made it to the DVD, the detail was on the film. If it was on the film, it was visible. So it should be there on the blu-ray as well.

Before we go any further, and irrespective of whether there's a problem with these discs or not, that's quite wrong.

Others may like to watch the restoration documentary on the restored Godfather Collection.

In it Robert Harris discusses Gordon Willis' cinematography, shooting techniques, and in particular the way he got his reputation as the 'Prince of Darkness'; something quite relevant to our discussion here.

Harris notes that other directors shoot with a lot of light to spare, creating a lighter film than intended, where the low level light detail and overall brightness of the film is generally lowered at the printing stage. However, he notes that Willis shot films very darkly in the first place, so there is only ever one way to print a Willis film.

The point is that, unlike Willis, most DoPs shoot dark films much brighter than they intend them to be shown, then darken the film in post-production.

Your contention that everything on the OCN should make it onto the Blu-ray Disc is inaccurate.

What we do know is that a great number of reviews of the film on its original cinema release discussed how dark it was, and whatever the pros and cons of these releases, none of the ones we're discussing other than the Sony Blu-rays, look like the sort of films which anyone would ever call dark.

Steve W

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by Pecker

Before we go any further, and irrespective of whether there's a problem with these discs or not, that's quite wrong.

Others may like to watch the restoration documentary on the restored Godfather Collection.

In it Robert Harris discusses Gordon Willis' cinematography, shooting techniques, and in particular the way he got his reputation as the 'Prince of Darkness'; something quite relevant to our discussion here.

Harris notes that other directors shoot with a lot of light to spare, creating a lighter film than intended, where the low level light detail and overall brightness of the film is generally lowered at the printing stage. However, he notes that Willis shot films very darkly in the first place, so there is only ever one way to print a Willis film.

The point is that, unlike Willis, most DoPs shoot dark films much brighter than they intend them to be shown, then darken the film in post-production.

Your contention that everything on the OCN should make it onto the Blu-ray Disc is inaccurate.

What we do know is that a great number of reviews of the film on its original cinema release discussed how dark it was, and whatever the pros and cons of these releases, none of the ones we're discussing other than the Sony Blu-rays, look like the sort of films which anyone would ever call dark.

Steve W

Very true, but that was in the days of film. While FURY was, indeed, shot on film, THE INTERVIEW was shot digitally. It's true there is still grading for digital films, but the fact that the DVD, UltraViolet and Netflix versions of THE INTERVIEW all match, and all look normal, suggests it's the BD that doesn't match the filmmakers' intentions.

The fact that this issue affects both FURY and THE INTERVIEW, among other titles, suggests it's some common problem with the BDs, and nothing to do with the way these films were shot, especially since both titles have normal black levels in all other formats released everywhere in the world.

As for FURY being naturally "dark", I saw it in theaters, and it did not look like I was viewing it through sunglasses, the way the Sony BD seems to look. The Polish and Taiwanese BDs are certainly dark, unless they're compared to the extreme blacks of the Sony BD.

That said, THE INTERVIEW remains my focus here, and I've yet to hear anyone suggest it's intended to look the way it does on BD. And if one of these Sony titles is messed up on BD, it's not a huge stretch to believe they all are part of an ongoing problem, rather than it being an enormous coincidence.

[BONKERS]

Correct. Once again, people are completely taking what the issue is out of context. This isn't about how it was shot. It's about the digitally processed result on video. In which the (black level) is heavily clipped at some point in the process in many cases. Whether it's intentional or not is another matter.

[wesslan]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

Any differences in how it looks are down to how people have their display calibrated. The disc ultimately looks how it looks, one copy is exactly the same as the next, so it can't look technically different in appearance for people. The link I posted has 9 comparisons listed at the top of the image, just click the links if you want to see more comparisons:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comp...4853/picture:0

Again, the Sony looks exactly like that on my calibrated display. But I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall a bit now. Why have no other 'professional reviews' noticed the issues with the other discs yet then either?

Yeah and as I said, it doesn't look that way on MY "professional" calibrated display......

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

US BD vs Taiwan BD
http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleich...D=2290#auswahl

US BD vs US DVD
http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleich...ess=#vergleich

See also the first post in this thread for a few more.

The US BD comes out with massively crushed blacks in all comparisons.

I still prefer the US BD in these comparisons, other than maybe the one inside the tank. And I remember seeing a lot of facial detail in the tank when watching the movie, so I wonder how cherry-picked those screens are.

It's a dark movie, so maybe "black crush" just looks right for it. It reviewed very well across the board on all BD review sites. At some point arguing about it becomes pointless. The Interview definitely looks like crap so if Sony are having a problem I am glad you guys are trying to make them aware of it.

[Pieter V]

Fury French Blu-ray screenshots:

http://www.hdnumerique.com/dossiers/...ml#prettyPhoto