UltraHD Blurays and players will start coming by Christmas 2015. Still buying blurays

[Dylan34]

I have a Sony x850c and I can see a difference the way the display upscales blus to 4K. Can't wait for the real thing. The upscaler Sony uses though does a phenomenal job!!! One of the best if not THE best upscaler around right now.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Leterface

Why would UHD BD players miss the ability to play DVDs?

My understanding is the UHD specs allow for but do not require backward compatibility with DVD so it's essentially being left up to the hardware manufacturers. DVD playback would require a separate red laser so it might add a bit to costs but I would think manufacturers would be inclined to include it if those costs are relatively low. I'm not sure it would be a huge selling point to people buying UHD players but it would be a plus.

[Eny-]

Originally Posted by octagon

My understanding is the UHD specs allow for but do not require backward compatibility with DVD so it's essentially being left up to the hardware manufacturers. DVD playback would require a separate red laser so it might add a bit to costs but I would think manufacturers would be inclined to include it if those costs are relatively low. I'm not sure it would be a huge selling point to people buying UHD players but it would be a plus.

It is since Studios still include extra discs on DVD.

[StingingVelvet]

I'm sure the vast majority will include DVD playback. I imagine in 20 years time I will have a collection that still has many DVDs in it, especially classic TV shows.

[Blu MacReady]

Originally Posted by BMM

I wonder if the first wave of titles will be along the lines of what the first releases were like for DVD and Blu-Ray....ie, stuff I have no interest in buying.

It'll no doubt be all those titles that seem to get endless rereleases in different packaging. X-Men series is one I expect to see again and again. Blade Runner, Alien, the usual guarenteed sellers but both of which look amazing already.
Other mainstream you've seen, then seen again as a special edition, then again as an exclusive sleve, then again as a steelbook, then again with a digital code, then again as part of a pack/set, then again...etc etc.

I guess they'll be a 2nd or 3rd release of something like The A-Team or Spiderman before we see something needing an upgrade like Casino. Or even before we see a standard BD of something popular but never released like Single White Female (not a classic, but a big title still unseen)..please see own wishlist you've had for the last 10 years+.

One I would put cash on, is Spectre. It's due a Xmas release in time for this format.

If they (mostly all studios) can't be bothered to put out top quality BD releases of many films (complaints of EE, DNR, not better then DVD, colour timing, upscale only etc), like The Fog, most SF titles, Casino, Goldeneye and all the others that get 3* or a complete slating on here and other forums (the ones you've complained about). Why would they suddenly spend out and issue flawless discs with the correct audio, the extras missing from Laser disc or DVD. Why is UHD not going to cause the same debates etc as most BDs?

Seems odd to rush out and spend thousands on what's required and throw utter blinkered support behind something not even out yet, but have some foresight to problems which the current format suffers from? One which is unlikely to disappear and that's the studios own efforts into their stock....or is this a format purely going to work on new films? Are labels like Scream suddenly going to get an amazing perfect transfer from MGM of a catalogue title to issue a flawless 4k disc for $40 or will it be the same story as now?

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by Blu MacReady

It'll no doubt be all those titles that seem to get endless rereleases in different packaging. X-Men series is one I expect to see again and again. Blade Runner, Alien, the usual guarenteed sellers but both of which look amazing already.
Other mainstream you've seen, then seen again as a special edition, then again as an exclusive sleve, then again as a steelbook, then again with a digital code, then again as part of a pack/set, then again...etc etc.

I guess they'll be a 2nd or 3rd release of something like The A-Team or Spiderman before we see something needing an upgrade like Casino. Or even before we see a standard BD of something popular but never released like Single White Female (not a classic, but a big title still unseen)..please see own wishlist you've had for the last 10 years+.

One I would put cash on, is Spectre. It's due a Xmas release in time for this format.

If they (mostly all studios) can't be bothered to put out top quality BD releases of many films (complaints of EE, DNR, not better then DVD, colour timing, upscale only etc), like The Fog, most SF titles, Casino, Goldeneye and all the others that get 3* or a complete slating on here and other forums (the ones you've complained about). Why would they suddenly spend out and issue flawless discs with the correct audio, the extras missing from Laser disc or DVD. Why is UHD not going to cause the same debates etc as most BDs?

Seems odd to rush out and spend thousands on what's required and throw utter blinkered support behind something not even out yet, but have some foresight to problems which the current format suffers from? One which is unlikely to disappear and that's the studios own efforts into their stock....or is this a format purely going to work on new films? Are labels like Scream suddenly going to get an amazing perfect transfer from MGM of a catalogue title to issue a flawless 4k disc for $40 or will it be the same story as now?

This is the basis of my Thread over here:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=250998

[Blu MacReady]

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

This is the basis of my Thread over here:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=250998

Cool, good thread, just reading through it now. Lots of valid points there....and I see I'm in there as well

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by Blu MacReady

Cool, good thread, just reading through it now. Lots of valid points there....and I see I'm in there as well

-__-
Did you originally agree?

[Blu MacReady]

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

-__-
Did you originally agree?

Lol, in fact I said almost exactly the same in 2014 on the first page as I did this morning. Consistant or boring? I'm sure some will have other lables

And you? Your views the same almost a year on?

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by Blu MacReady

Lol, in fact I said almost exactly the same in 2014 on the first page as I did this morning. Consistant or boring? I'm sure some will have other lables

And you? Your views the same almost a year on?

Yup.
I still fear for the upcoming format.
Look at a lot of the recent issues by a certain company.
All it is is half-assed effort.

This can't continue with the next format or it will fail because of how bad movies and TV Shows will look and sound.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by Blu MacReady

Lol, in fact I said almost exactly the same in 2014 on the first page as I did this morning. Consistant or boring? I'm sure some will have other lables

And you? Your views the same almost a year on?

HOLY S**T!
I didn't realize that that Thread is nearly a year old already!

[Pecker]

One of the things that strikes me is that there are so many Blu-ray Disc releases out there not up to full Blu-ray Disc standard (potential).

If you look at some Kino/Twilight Time releases, they're good, a reasonable step up over the DVD, and quite film-like, but they're not as good as they could be - Rollerball is a good example - an older HD master was used.

So, if MGM (who own it) and TT aren't going to spend money on a new 2K scan for Rollerball now, what makes anyone think they'll splash out on a new (and substantially more expensive) 4K scan any time soon?

And it took 7 years from the first Blu-ray Disc ever released until Rollerball appeared.

I think Rollerball is a good example to use here, as it was a medium-big film at the time of its release, with a cult following. It's not a big blockbuster or a classic, but it's also not a low budget indie production which hardly anyone has ever heard of.

I'll come back to this.

SACD/DVD-A has been mentioned - I'll just say something about this. I have a few players capable of handling these discs. I have a few discs - maybe 10 or 20 in total.

But after a while, most of my favourite albums were not out on the format, and new releases were at a trickle, so I just stopped looking - I was down to seeing news of something I wanted and buying a new title once or twice a year.

In the end, I just gave up.

So, back to Rollerball. It was fairly obvious from quite early on in Blu-ray Disc's lifetime, that the studios were going to slowly wade through their back catalogues, and I'd probably end up with Rollerball, and the vast majority of my other favourites. Great.

Had it not been - if I was going to end up with a dozen or so of my favourites on Blu-ray Disc, but the other several hundred favourites on DVD only, I think I might not have bothered buying even those dozen.

And there's nothing the studios are doing which fills me with confidence. I'm seeing more and more Arrow and Criterion titles labelled as coming from a new 4K scan , but (and I haven't done a statistical analysis), I believe most new releases are still coming from 2K scans.

If Criterion are still scanning the majority of releases in 2K in late 2015, how long will it take before we see a UHD of Rollerball?

Looking at past events, not until 2023.

And that's if UHD discs last that long.

Will there be enough people interested in the title on UHD to warrant the expense of a 4K scan? Even if that becomes a lot cheaper, will there be enough interest in a UHD of Rollerball for Twilight Time (just as an example) to press 3,000 copies?

And if the answer is 'no', and we're not likely to see UHD releases of the likes of Rollerball, is it really worth buying into the format?

Steve W

[Gold Ranger]

Look at The Time Machine (remake)
That only ever got a DVD and has yet to grace Blu-Ray!
I know many people that liked it as those that didn't.
It is something that should have been put out on Blu-Ray before the 18th version of Batman ('89)

[tenia]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I'm sure the vast majority will include DVD playback. I imagine in 20 years time I will have a collection that still has many DVDs in it, especially classic TV shows.

They will have to.

More than 15 years after he appears, DVD still is waiting to be fully replaced by a new format to be adopted by the masses, since Blu Ray failed to do that. Blu Ray hasn't been pushed properly by the studios and DVD hasn't been forsaken because everybody was afraid to lose this huge share of sales, despite DVD sales being crashing down on the floor.

I don't see the industry suddenly agreeing on dropping the DVD for the next next generation of players, except if they really don't want a new format to take off.

That'd not only be silly, but straight suicidal.

Originally Posted by Pecker

And it took 7 years from the first Blu-ray Disc ever released until Rollerball appeared.

And there's nothing the studios are doing which fills me with confidence. I'm seeing more and more Arrow and Criterion titles labelled as coming from a new 4K scan, but (and I haven't done a statistical analysis) I believe most new releases are still coming from 2K scans.

Not only did it take so long, but remember that many BDs are actually using HD masters more than 10 years old. Even Criterion recycled some obviously obsolete masters for some of their releases like Sword of Doom.

I've discussed last week with TF1 Video's Head of Marketing and Communication and he told me that the industry should be a huge clean up of their older masters because you should either do a proper release or not do anything at all.

Unfortunately, that's not the case at all, and you can see Scola's Le Bal being released on BD through an upscaled SD Telecinema in 2015.

That's unacceptable, but I don't see UHD changing this at all. Most likely, newer 2K scans will be upscaled to 4K, and MGM will still try to sell us BDs prepped from 10 years old HD scan of interpositive elements. And I won't even speak of the work outputted by Raro or Shout. Can you imagine their awful Italian scans full of scanner noise and DNR, or their afwul compression, now in glorious 4K ?

Moreover, you have to think about market shares. The UHD most likely will be even more a niche than the BD. It won't be anything near the DVD, because let's face it, the success of the DVD is more of an exception than anything. How will you then finance all the work to do an UHD release ? How will you then price the final product ? For who ? Which equipment ? Even myself, with the money and the space, I don't see myself getting rid of my 50" Panasonic G20 to buy a 65" or bigger screen. Especially because to get a proper UHD set, I'd need to shelf out a pretty big sum of money.

Think also of all the movies that can't be released on BD already because the remaining elements are in so poor conditions.

[#Darren]

UHD is purely about HARDWARE sales. It's going to be really quiet on the disk front. They will release a minimal amount for "appearances" to help UHD hardware sales.

Originally Posted by Pecker

One of the things that strikes me is that there are so many Blu-ray Disc releases out there not up to full Blu-ray Disc standard (potential).

If you look at some Kino/Twilight Time releases, they're good, a reasonable step up over the DVD, and quite film-like, but they're not as good as they could be - Rollerball is a good example - an older HD master was used.

So, if MGM (who own it) and TT aren't going to spend money on a new 2K scan for Rollerball now, what makes anyone think they'll splash out on a new (and substantially more expensive) 4K scan any time soon?

And it took 7 years from the first Blu-ray Disc ever released until Rollerball appeared.

I think Rollerball is a good example to use here, as it was a medium-big film at the time of its release, with a cult following. It's not a big blockbuster or a classic, but it's also not a low budget indie production which hardly anyone has ever heard of.

I'll come back to this.

SACD/DVD-A has been mentioned - I'll just say something about this. I have a few players capable of handling these discs. I have a few discs - maybe 10 or 20 in total.

But after a while, most of my favourite albums were not out on the format, and new releases were at a trickle, so I just stopped looking - I was down to seeing news of something I wanted and buying a new title once or twice a year.

In the end, I just gave up.

So, back to Rollerball. It was fairly obvious from quite early on in Blu-ray Disc's lifetime, that the studios were going to slowly wade through their back catalogues, and I'd probably end up with Rollerball, and the vast majority of my other favourites. Great.

Had it not been - if I was going to end up with a dozen or so of my favourites on Blu-ray Disc, but the other several hundred favourites on DVD only, I think I might not have bothered buying even those dozen.

And there's nothing the studios are doing which fills me with confidence. I'm seeing more and more Arrow and Criterion titles labelled as coming from a new 4K scan , but (and I haven't done a statistical analysis), I believe most new releases are still coming from 2K scans.

If Criterion are still scanning the majority of releases in 2K in late 2015, how long will it take before we see a UHD of Rollerball?

Looking at past events, not until 2023.

And that's if UHD discs last that long.

Will there be enough people interested in the title on UHD to warrant the expense of a 4K scan? Even if that becomes a lot cheaper, will there be enough interest in a UHD of Rollerball for Twilight Time (just as an example) to press 3,000 copies?

And if the answer is 'no', and we're not likely to see UHD releases of the likes of Rollerball, is it really worth buying into the format?

Steve W

[Blu MacReady]

[Show spoiler]

Originally Posted by tenia

They will have to.

More than 15 years after he appears, DVD still is waiting to be fully replaced by a new format to be adopted by the masses, since Blu Ray failed to do that. Blu Ray hasn't been pushed properly by the studios and DVD hasn't been forsaken because everybody was afraid to lose this huge share of sales, despite DVD sales being crashing down on the floor.

I don't see the industry suddenly agreeing on dropping the DVD for the next next generation of players, except if they really don't want a new format to take off.

That'd not only be silly, but straight suicidal.



Not only did it take so long, but remember that many BDs are actually using HD masters more than 10 years old. Even Criterion recycled some obviously obsolete masters for some of their releases like Sword of Doom.

I've discussed last week with TF1 Video's Head of Marketing and Communication and he told me that the industry should be a huge clean up of their older masters because you should either do a proper release or not do anything at all.

Unfortunately, that's not the case at all, and you can see Scola's Le Bal being released on BD through an upscaled SD Telecinema in 2015.

That's unacceptable, but I don't see UHD changing this at all. Most likely, newer 2K scans will be upscaled to 4K, and MGM will still try to sell us BDs prepped from 10 years old HD scan of interpositive elements. And I won't even speak of the work outputted by Raro or Shout. Can you imagine their awful Italian scans full of scanner noise and DNR, or their afwul compression, now in glorious 4K ?

Moreover, you have to think about market shares. The UHD most likely will be even more a niche than the BD. It won't be anything near the DVD, because let's face it, the success of the DVD is more of an exception than anything. How will you then finance all the work to do an UHD release ? How will you then price the final product ? For who ? Which equipment ? Even myself, with the money and the space, I don't see myself getting rid of my 50" Panasonic G20 to buy a 65" or bigger screen. Especially because to get a proper UHD set, I'd need to shelf out a pretty big sum of money.

Think also of all the movies that can't be released on BD already because the remaining elements are in so poor conditions.

Spot on can't see how anyone but the blinkered could argue with this. Can't see many if any old faves from 70s-00s getting a proper full 4k remaster. It will no doubt be new releases like I suggested, Spectre or TMNT 2. They'll no doubt look amazing, on the correct set up and distance. Is it worth spending thousands for this? Not when these new titles will look just as amazing on BD with my current system

Maybe this format is them just looking to milk more cash as 3D never really grabbed the masses? It'll be half arsed as pointed out here already.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by #Darren

UHD is purely about HARDWARE sales. It's going to be really quiet on the disk front. They will release a minimal amount for "appearances" to help UHD hardware sales.

They can't possibly make much of a profit on just hardware sales. Even expensive hardware tends to be a small profit margin. It's possible that some hardware may even lose money at launch.

[Ruined]

Lets face it, there is literally no hope for UHD Blu-ray. It's just a matter of time before the plug is pulled and it hasn't even launched yet. And the only content coming out is the new blockbusters and blockbuster catalogs that have been rehashed a thousand times already, because other titles would be financial suicide.

Personally I think they should not even launch it and focus on Blu-ray instead.

[bobbydrugar]

Some good points being made. I think penguin that the manufacturers are about to learn the very thing you just said. I also believe this is purely based on hardware peddlers trying to convince people who just sprung for new 1080P TV's to buy new 2160P TV's. and I think the content will be lacking and I believe the profits will not be there for the Hardware folks and I think this will be a very hard lesson learned and we all suffer because of it. The headlines will read "See physical media is dead, Sales of UHD are poor" etc. etc. And in the end we will get a renewed focus on Streaming content and many of the major hardware manufacturers will be financially hurt leaving us even fewer options when choosing to purchase new TV's and Blu-ray Players.

As for Ruined I think your last point was spot on. Lets work to get blu-ray done right before we try to start in on something else.

T

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by bobbydrugar

Some good points being made. I think penguin that the manufacturers are about to learn the very thing you just said. I also believe this is purely based on hardware peddlers trying to convince people who just sprung for new 1080P TV's to buy new 2160P TV's. and I think the content will be lacking and I believe the profits will not be there for the Hardware folks and I think this will be a very hard lesson learned and we all suffer because of it. The headlines will read "See physical media is dead, Sales of UHD are poor" etc. etc. And in the end we will get a renewed focus on Streaming content and many of the major hardware manufacturers will be financially hurt leaving us even fewer options when choosing to purchase new TV's and Blu-ray Players.

As for Ruined I think your last point was spot on. Lets work to get blu-ray done right before we try to start in on something else.

T

The only way for Blu-Ray to be done right is to wipe out DVD completely!