The Shining (1980)

[balthazar_bee]

Whether showing the family watching TV or cutting to Dick and the outside world enhances the sense of isolation conceptually has always been beside the point for me.

The American cut of The Shining is more effective for me because it's simply more patient, and as an exercise in suspense, its methodical pace creates atmosphere in a way that the shorter version (as great as it is) can't quite manage. These things take time.

And as other posters have pointed out, when characters are engaged in the act of watching TV on camera, it has a strange effect -- it's a kind of connection, yes, but it instantly connotes "killing time", boredom, aimless hours and the like.

Incidentally, I seem to remember one critic (Maltin?) in a negative review remarking that Jack "starts to go insane almost immediately" and this reviewer was referring to the American cut.

But yeah, I coulda done without them skeletons.

[Ernest Rister]

Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Mark Twain, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Thoreau, Emily Dickinson, Henry Ford, Thomas Edison, Walt Disney, Abraham Lincoln, Steve Jobs, George Lucas, Prince, Brian Wilson, Bruce Springsteen, Vanilla Ice, Miley Cyrus, Carrot Top, Screech, Jared Fogel, whoever wrote Catwoman...all-non Europeans!

[AlexIlDottore]

I'm with Bill Hicks: Vanilla Ice was created by the devil.

[anephric]

Originally Posted by eiknarf

To say the European version is shorter because European folk are smarter (or the Americans are dumber) is no different than saying the European version is shorter because the European folk can't sit through the longer version because their mouths hurt due to having worse teeth.

Except, statistically, Americans have more missing teeth than British people.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ry-oral-health

Hey ho.

[OgamiittoMcJ]

Originally Posted by AlexIlDottore

I've read this many times before on the internet, but before believing it, I'd like to know the source. So...do you have a source for this statement, please?

trying to remember,
from memory Kubrick said it either to his wife or someone on the set
so don't think it is in any of his interviews or documentary's
and I don't have an official link

the following reviews mention it
http://www.melonfarmers.co.uk/hitss_sh.htm

http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=1215

meanwhile Wikipedia, and BFI mention it was after the poor initial reception Warner Bros. complained about its ambiguity and length

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shining_(film)

http://www.bfi.org.uk/news/producing...harlan-kubrick

the easy answer for me is all 3 cuts were Director's cuts by Kubrick
and Kubrick was a perfectionist

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081505/alternateversions

[OgamiittoMcJ]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Assumption?

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

Actually he cut the Shelly Duvall stuff to because he hated working with her, and hated her performance.

The shorter cut was known to be HIS preferred version of the film, but I don't know about "most reviewers."

sorry looks like I got that from here
http://www.melonfarmers.co.uk/hitss_sh.htm

oh and I agree like most reviewers

[Lyle_JP]

Originally Posted by eiknarf

America's got more patents than the rest of the world combined. That's mad creativity, innovation and intelligence. I hardly think that Kubrick thinks Europeans are smarter than Americans

Kubrick was an ex-pat. He had the anti-American chip on his shoulder typical of ex-pats.

[eiknarf]

Originally Posted by Lyle_JP

Kubrick was an ex-pat. He had the anti-American chip on his shoulder typical of ex-pats.

Ahhh interesting

[AlexIlDottore]

Originally Posted by OgamiittoMcJ

trying to remember,
from memory Kubrick said it either to his wife or someone on the set
so don't think it is in any of his interviews or documentary's
and I don't have an official link

the following reviews mention it
http://www.melonfarmers.co.uk/hitss_sh.htm

http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=1215

meanwhile Wikipedia, and BFI mention it was after the poor initial reception Warner Bros. complained about its ambiguity and length

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shining_(film)

http://www.bfi.org.uk/news/producing...harlan-kubrick

the easy answer for me is all 3 cuts were Director's cuts by Kubrick
and Kubrick was a perfectionist

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081505/alternateversions

As I said, I've read that many times before on the net, so I've already seen those links. So still no source then.

[dallywhitty]

Watched the longer US cut for the very first time a couple of nights ago and it made me fall in love with the film. Don't get me wrong, I've always really liked the film, but I guess I've never had that level of appreciation that most folks do, even as a fan of both King and Kubrick. Anyway, I thought the sense of dread and isolation was heightened, and the padded running time actually made Jack's descent into madness feel less abrupt.

[JimDiGriz]

Originally Posted by dallywhitty

Watched the longer US cut for the very first time a couple of nights ago and it made me fall in love with the film. Don't get me wrong, I've always really liked the film, but I guess I've never had that level of appreciation that most folks do, even as a fan of both King and Kubrick. Anyway, I thought the sense of dread and isolation was heightened, and the padded running time actually made Jack's descent into madness feel less abrupt.

Ive said it before here but I was so used to the shorter cut that the longer cut still seems like a novelty. And more Shining is definitely better than less Shining!

[Christian Muth]

Originally Posted by AlexIlDottore

I've read this many times before on the internet, but before believing it, I'd like to know the source. So...do you have a source for this statement, please?

I've asked this same question MANY times, Alex. Don't expect an answer because you won't get one. You'll get, "I've heard..." "People have said..." etc. etc. etc., but NOBODY will be able to provide you with a quote saying that Kubrick preferred the far inferior European cut of THE SHINING, which was clearly cut for commercial reasons alone (i.e., the fact that the European cut is almost EXACTLY just under 2-hours long- an obvious commercial consideration, not an artistic one).

Chris

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by Eny-

Although that's a stupid generalization and having more patents doesn't mean squat, truth is that the best "American" thinkers were Europeans that fled Europe.

This is partially true, but if you are going to go down that road, you should also keep in mind that there are many, many "Europeans" that actually came from the former Russian empire and had an enormous impact on the European economy (and culture) before and after the Revolution. France in particular benefited a lot from Russian emigration.

There was a massive movement of people toward Europe after the Fall of the Ottoman Empire as well

Originally Posted by Eny-

Also, if not for the two great wars that destroyed Europe, the US wouldn't become one of the World superpowers. Not only the US never had a war in their territory (not counting civil wars) but Europe had to pay large sums of money to the US for many years it's reconstruction.

This is debatable. Even without the two great wars Europe would have had plenty of problems, many likely inherited from smaller conflicts like the ones that existed during the time when the colonial powers dominated. So, Europeans still would have flocked to America to escape misery and the old class system. On the other hand, America's vast resources always would have been a major factor in its inevitable prosperity.

One thing that is difficult to argue is this: European immigration after the wars you mention is directly responsible for America's post-war growth and status as a superpower. There are a lot of political leaders today that are playing the PC card and have conveniently forgotten about it, but it was the Judeo-Christian values that shaped up America's modern core and structure.

Pro-B

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by eiknarf

America's got more patents than the rest of the world combined. That's mad creativity, innovation and intelligence. I hardly think that Kubrick thinks Europeans are smarter than Americans

That's an indication of the desire to ring-fence potential future revenue, not actual creativity. In other words, patent every possible idea so that no matter how minutely incremental the distinction is, anyone who comes along with an successful product that happens to share characteristics with something you've patented means they have to pay you.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

it was the Judeo-Christian values that shaped up America's modern core and structure.

Pro-B

True. It should also be recognised, however, that those values also justified wiping America's ancient culture, and life, almost entirely from the map and many of the other iniquities that came with the shaping of modern America.

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by Martoto

True. It should also be recognised, however, that those values also justified wiping America's ancient culture, and life, almost entirely from the map and many of the other iniquities that came with the shaping of modern America.

Actually, this is a popular myth that has been carefully shaped up to impose a completely undeserved sense of guilt on modern America.

America's past -- and specifically the era you refer to -- was defined by tribal traditions which were absolutely not wiped to promote modern Judeo-Christian values.

There is a sea of difference between the America in which tribal culture flourished and the modern America that evolved into a global superpower with the Judeo-Christian values at its core.

Pro-B

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

Actually, this is a popular myth that has been carefully shaped up to impose a completely undeserved sense of guilt on modern America.

Why are you bringing up how modern America feels? You were talking about the founders that shaped what became modern America's Judeo-Christian values. If you're going to disassociate from the effect of European settlement of the continent in that manner then you need to do the same with whatever good there is about modern America. You must take the good with the bad.

America's past -- and specifically the era you refer to -- was defined by tribal traditions which were absolutely not wiped to promote modern Judeo-Christian values.

Who said anything about promoting? I'm assuming their Judeo-Christian values still existed while the people who were there before were being moved aside?

There is a sea of difference between the America in which tribal culture flourished and the modern America that evolved into a global superpower with the Judeo-Christian values at its core.

And? You're the one who brought up how modern Americans ought to feel. And by the way, tribal culture still flourishes well into the modern era. The continuing struggle for of civil rights has not been not aided by the removal of the existing tribal culture.

I guess it's my mistake. The existing people and its culture was either severely diminished by its own accord, completely coincidental to the arrival of Europeans, and any newcomers that did anything to them were not Judeo Christian or did not believe at all that they were upholding their Judeo-Christian values at any point?

If you are purely talking about America in the 20th century, it was the war itself which made it the super-power.

[jstil]

Originally Posted by Martoto

True. It should also be recognised, however, that those values also justified wiping America's ancient culture, and life, almost entirely from the map and many of the other iniquities that came with the shaping of modern America.

First, there was no America before the white man showed up. America, the name and the country, came from the white man, the first Americans.

There was no ancient "culture." There were many different cultures, many of which were hostile to each other.

Most of those ancient cultures were not wiped out by Americans. The major ones still exist and have integrated into American culture long ago. Many also simply folded into other tribes or became extinct on their own or wiped out at the hands of other tribes.

It's important to note that the vast majority of the lands that became America were actually uninhabited. No conquering or land grabbing took place in such territories, unlike what the PC revisionists of today would like people to believe. Such people also like to ignore the fact that warfare and land grabbing amongst tribes and against Americans was a common thing. Unfortunately through the madness and lie of political correctness were are supposed to view all the Indians as wise, noble and as wrongful victims at the hands of Americans.

One last thing, any American born in America is a native American. The use of that term to the exclusion of other races of native Americans is racist and obviously wrong. More PC lies and madness.

Sincerely, a native American with American Indian ancestry proud to call himself American first and foremost. Last post on this from me before the PC censorship kicks in.

[dallywhitty]

What's with all the great threads being hijacked by bullshit politics?

[balthazar_bee]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

Actually, this is a popular myth that has been carefully shaped up to impose a completely undeserved sense of guilt on modern America.

Sorry for the politics, folks, but Pro-B -- "myth"..."carefully shaped"?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but surely it's no longer controversial to state that something akin to cultural genocide occurred on the North American continent at the hands of European settlers, mostly Christian ones.

It's not about making people feel guilty; it's about acknowledging that the "settling" of the land amounted to conquest by force. I'm not blaming Christian values for that, but surely you can see how it might appear hypocritical to the victims of said genocide that the core tenet of this religion is "love one another". Particularly since the mantra of American politics has always been, "That's in the past; let's move forward."

I'm a Catholic myself, and here in Canada we're only just starting to take the first tiny steps to address the brutality and racism of our own past; it hardly seems constructive to say, "Well, sure residential schools were terrible, but religion had no part to play there."

To steer us back a bit, one of the most interesting interpretations of the subtext of The Shining concerns this very issue.