The Matrix 4K UHD (1999)

[koberulz]

Originally Posted by Agent Kay

It was!
But LD was better and SVHS was better than both tape formats and Muse LD was better than all of it, then DVHS was better than all of that and dvd.

Not for home recording though.

The number of Australian NBL games that only survive on VHS is depressing. Worse, most have been chucked after being badly-digitised by people who don't know what they're doing.

[VonMagnum]

Originally Posted by OutOfBoose

I have nothing to say to arguments like "my eyes could be bad". Could be, which is why people with good eyes can see that there's plenty wrong with color grading of The Matrix. Half-assed revisionism.

I agree, but I don't think you're going to get some of the regulars to agree with you as they don't seem to think Bill Pope could have possibly let something less than perfect be released. Given color memory is poor over the long run at best and no one was really thinking back in 1999, hey, I should pay attention to whether there are any cyan colors in the Matrix scenes while I can so in the future I'll have my notes to fall back on as evidence, you're pretty much stuck with what was released either way short of choosing to watch a previous (or fan) version.

I do agree CONSISTENCY gives away that it's not perfect regardless as different camera shots show color changes in some scenes that are often hard to explain (e.g. look the walls in the room they're holding Morpheus from shot to shot. There are some where it looks pretty obvious to me they are grey (or some near shade to it) walls for real, possibly slightly towards blue, but then later after Neo has shot up the place, they're suddenly bright cyan colored! Ok, there's probably more light in the room with the window blown apart, but grey or medium blue doesn't turn bright cyan just because a light is shining on it.

I posted a picture of the cyan shots that bothered me earlier in this thread. The blanket green look bothered me a little, but cyan is difficult to swallow. The DVD looked washed out in places, but it's hard to argue with grey/normal colors or hints of green. I can believe the guy's office he was seeing for being tardy was dark blue as in the new version, but look at the paintings on the wall before he steps outside onto the ledge. They're CYAN/TEAL where they're clearly white for real (at least I've never seen cyan inserts in a picture frame before). The last BD looked a little teal, but nowhere near as extreme.

I've attached a Photoshop montage (top is new BD, middle is old BD and bottom is the DVD/Fan version). I personally prefer the bottom picture then the old BD in that order (although the old BD looks similar to the new BD, just not as extreme on the picture frame and other areas and usually "green" instead of "cyan" or "teal". Trading green for cyan isn't my idea of an improvement, although admittedly this is not consistent throughout the movie. The new BD does have some scenes looking better (or at least less green), but I'm at a loss how cyan is better than green when at least green is the color of the Matrix.

On my projector setup, I can simply choose the fan project (although it's not exactly free of glitches either). On a 4K set, it's a tougher choice, but ultimately, I find I'd rather be watching the movie itself than worrying about what color the walls were in the room where Morpheus was rescued from, even if they change from an obvious grey to green to blue to extreme cyan depending on which scene you're watching. Hey, they're chameleon walls....

I realize many are sick of the color topic, so this is the last I plan on posting any comparisons, etc. It is what it is and short of an 8K release, there's not much chance of any changes any time soon.


Regardless, the sound is a solid improvement over both the DVD and the first BD. Both had poorer surround output compared to the Cinema DTS version (which the Dolby Digital version on this one seems to match almost exactly and the Atmos version expands further upon). I hated how the DVD/BD DD versions sounded one scene in particular in terms of surround behavior compared to what I witnessed at the theater (and yes I did compare at the time since I owned the DVD before it disappeared locally from all theaters). The gun rack scene where they fly into the back of the room in the Construct right before they go to rescue Morpheus always stuck out at the theater as "whooshing" into the back of the theater (or at least the sides around me, halfway back in the theater where I usually sat). Admittedly, a theater might sound different than at home, but after hearing the Cinema DTS track at home, I found it wasn't my imagination or just the room. It was different than the DVD/BD.

The DVD and first BD (which is identical to the DVD soundtrack as far as I can tell) sound mostly up front in that scene with some surround around you, but overall images towards the front in a sound meter leveled home theater. The Cinema DTS version does what I remember at the theater (which was in DTS when I saw it save a couple of stereo only theaters) and has much more solid sound in the surround channels making its presence known as the racks fly beyond where the screen could show them.

Thankfully, the new 4K/2K BDs sound like the DTS soundtrack, even the "backup" Dolby Digital track. The Atmos/TrueHD track and DD EX track go even further (or at least louder downmixed to 6.1). Neither track sounds like the DVD/First BD at all in that scene. Both appear to be new (for home at least) mixes taken from the original theatrical soundtracks. The DD track sounds exactly like the Theatrical DTS track every scene I compared it in terms of surround placements of the sounds, a solid improvement over the previous releases even in just 5.1, IMO.

[fighthefutureofhd]

[nick4Knight]

Apologizing for the Cyan push by claiming that's how it always was is just flat out speculation. The rationale "Bill pope worked on this" is iron clad?? But Adam Greenberg does the same with T2 and you call the greens introduced to the UHD colour pallete revisionism because you don't remember that? Or don't LIKE that? This is the pick and choose mentality in full effect.

As inconsistent as the changing colours on Bill Pope's grade.

[fighthefutureofhd]

I'm watching this and I haven't seen any changing colors that were done by the 4K transfer.

[Agent Kay]

Originally Posted by koberulz

Not for home recording though.

The number of Australian NBL games that only survive on VHS is depressing. Worse, most have been chucked after being badly-digitised by people who don't know what they're doing.

Better barely ever means most popular.

[Gneissoid]

"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world, where none suffered, where everyone would be happy? It was a disaster. No one would accept the program, entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world, but I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering."

These boards are living proof. Don't ever stop being awesome, you guys.

[OutOfBoose]

Originally Posted by Gneissoid

"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world, where none suffered, where everyone would be happy? It was a disaster. No one would accept the program, entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world, but I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering."

I wish this release was perfect.

[Agent Kay]

Originally Posted by Gneissoid

"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world, where none suffered, where everyone would be happy? It was a disaster. No one would accept the program, entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world, but I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering."

These boards are living proof. Don't ever stop being awesome, you guys.

It's true, they put perfection on this disc and people could not handle it.
Their brains hair could not understand what they were seeing.

[KMFDMvsEnya]

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-o...l#post56290398
Matrix 4k Atmos 7.1
ITU-R BS.1770-3 Loudness: -15.69 LUFS

Matrix original Blu-ray DTHD 5.1
ITU-R BS.1770-3 Loudness: -18.53 LUFS

[fighthefutureofhd]

Originally Posted by OutOfBoose

I wish this release was perfect.

Thankfully, it is.

[Geoff D]

Ahem

Originally Posted by geoff d

phew, the matrix's uhd isn't perfect after all, folks! Perhaps the machines realised that they lacked the programming language to convey a "perfect uhd" so they mussed it up a bit to keep us convinced that we're not in the matrix.

[VonMagnum]

Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-o...l#post56290398
Matrix 4k Atmos 7.1
ITU-R BS.1770-3 Loudness: -15.69 LUFS

Matrix original Blu-ray DTHD 5.1
ITU-R BS.1770-3 Loudness: -18.53 LUFS

Someone suggested to me on another forum that it's possible the original DVD and first BD release had the surround channels set to a -3dB switch setting by mistake (apparently there is such a quick switch for some reason), which is why the surround channels are at a lower level, explaining why the DTS Cinema and new remastered soundtracks are at the same relative level as each other but the previous releases were lower. Your measurements would seem to indicate a 3dB drop in the previous release. I'm going to try compensating and see if that corrects the issue in the flying gun rack scene. Either way, I'm glad the new release has the levels back where they should be.

[KMFDMvsEnya]

I wish I had the DTS Cinema track to take a look at, it would prove illuminating to what the mix is meant to be.

The bass on the original Blu-ray is definitely lower than one would expect, especially in light of how 'punchy' various elements of the sound design is.

I am speculating that the Atmos mixing is not necessarily wholly restoring the levels per se, I am basing this on how transients are handled between the 5.1 DTHD and Atmos tracks. The Atmos mix is a revision beyond the addition of height objects, and the LFE in my opinion has been a little overdone. Better than the original BR but a bit too much.

[guitarguy316]

Found one at Best Buy but it’s at $34.99 now...yeah no way I’ll pass for now.

[Agent Kay]

Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya

I wish I had the DTS Cinema track to take a look at, it would prove illuminating to what the mix is meant to be.

The bass on the original Blu-ray is definitely lower than one would expect, especially in light of how 'punchy' various elements of the sound design is.

I am speculating that the Atmos mixing is not necessarily wholly restoring the levels per se, I am basing this on how transients are handled between the 5.1 DTHD and Atmos tracks. The Atmos mix is a revision beyond the addition of height objects, and the LFE in my opinion has been a little overdone. Better than the original BR but a bit too much.

I have it somewhere I think.

[VonMagnum]

Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya

I wish I had the DTS Cinema track to take a look at, it would prove illuminating to what the mix is meant to be.

It should still be in the usual places one finds things on the Net for the Fan version.

The bass on the original Blu-ray is definitely lower than one would expect, especially in light of how 'punchy' various elements of the sound design is.

I am speculating that the Atmos mixing is not necessarily wholly restoring the levels per se, I am basing this on how transients are handled between the 5.1 DTHD and Atmos tracks. The Atmos mix is a revision beyond the addition of height objects, and the LFE in my opinion has been a little overdone. Better than the original BR but a bit too much.

I'm using satellite/sub in my home theater room so I have the regular bass levels turned up about 6dB to better meet the satellite crossover point and because I hate flat bass in most music (usually have it +3 - +4dB or so over true flat), but I have the LFE channel turned down -6dB to match so it's overall level is flat 0dB in the room. I found this saves my walls from losing all their nails as the LFE channel rarely does anything the main bass channels aren't already doing in most movies, but when it does, it's always shake the room stuff. Those levels might be great for a giant theater, but in a small home theater with wooden walls all around, it can be a bit much.

I don't have Atmos yet, so I can't comment on its overall behavior, but certainly switching to it raises the overall level and bass levels noticeably. I haven't taken any measurements, however. I did notice on Handbrake that Dolby Digital EX shows up as the separate Dolby soundtrack, but when played off the Blu-Ray or UHD disc, EX shows up as the track played when Atmos is selected and it fallsback automatically whereas regular Dolby Digital shows up as regular. I don't know if this is a Handbrake thing or something else.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by VonMagnum

Someone suggested to me on another forum that it's possible the original DVD and first BD release had the surround channels set to a -3dB switch setting by mistake (apparently there is such a quick switch for some reason), which is why the surround channels are at a lower level, explaining why the DTS Cinema and new remastered soundtracks are at the same relative level as each other but the previous releases were lower. Your measurements would seem to indicate a 3dB drop in the previous release. I'm going to try compensating and see if that corrects the issue in the flying gun rack scene. Either way, I'm glad the new release has the levels back where they should be.

Cinema playback attenuated the rears by -3dB on some decoders, so if a theatrical printmaster had the rears mixed at +3dB and was transferred as such into a home mix, the rears would be 3dB too loud, hence the need for a -3dB cut. I'm not referring to The Matrix per se, I'm just explaining why there's a -3dB "quick switch" in the mixing suite.

[LordoftheRings]

https://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/1343...d-edition-the/

[Agent Kay]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Cinema playback attenuated the rears by -3dB on some decoders, so if a theatrical printmaster had the rears mixed at +3dB and was transferred as such into a home mix, the rears would be 3dB too loud, hence the need for a -3dB cut. I'm not referring to The Matrix per se, I'm just explaining why there's a -3dB "quick switch" in the mixing suite.

Indeed, it was a standard thing.