Star Trek: The Original Motion Picture Collection (1979-1991)

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Whoever said that whales were logical?

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Whoever said that whales were logical?

Nobody has. But logic is of prime importance to Spock in almost every context. It is highly unlikely that the logic of the proposal that he and the whales agree on is not at the forefront of his mind. And that, as a Vulcan, he is conditioned to fully disclose his thoughts on the matter with the interested party.

It would be remarkably counter-intuitive for Spock to just blithely disregard logic here. The conversation later on between Spock and Kirk when discussing springing Chekov from the hospital reinforces this.

[Arawn]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

First V-Ger was from the Borg planet

That one makes some sense. We know V-Ger was from a machine planet.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by Arawn

That one makes some sense. We know V-Ger was from a machine planet.

V'Ger was from Earth.

[GrouchoFan]

Well, Spock wasn't exactly firing on all thrusters at the time.


And I despise all attempts by hack novelists to "ret-con" the sacred Original Series by dragging the Borg or Q into everything purposely left mysterious. The Doomsday Machine was NOT created to battle the Borg! The machine planet was NOT the home of the Borg! It's a big universe, not everything is related. That's MY canon.

[Egons Ghost]

Originally Posted by SuperFlyHighGuy

And I thought that The Voyage Home would fare the worst over time because of its foray into the 80s, and to younger viewers only approaching it now, it might. But it hasn't done that for me, thankfully, I still laugh at the "double-dumbass on you!" and Scotty's spat with the computer. I also appreciate the 'save the whales' message more; I see it less as an eye-roller and more as an entertaining socially-conscious message.

Watched it a couple of years ago with my daughter and I will fully admit that the nostalgia of it was very powerful. I found the whales theme rather poignant, and the scenes at the aquarium tour of the videos of whaling very disturbing. I felt it, man. I loved Spock's line, "hunting a species to extinction is illogical".
Also, since we had watched the preceding ones, I loved the continuity with III, something I missed as a kid when it was originally released (I had seen II thanks to TV broadcasts but oddly hadn't seen III).

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Martoto

V'Ger was from Earth.

You know what we mean. The Voyager probe reached a planet run by machines and they converted it into the early stages of V'ger the death machine or whatever. It does make some sense to say that was the Borg, even though they aren't machines really but cyborgs. However it is just one example of the Borg being shoved into everything post-Best of Both Worlds.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Martoto

Nobody has. But logic is of prime importance to Spock in almost every context. It is highly unlikely that the logic of the proposal that he and the whales agree on is not at the forefront of his mind. And that, as a Vulcan, he is conditioned to fully disclose his thoughts on the matter with the interested party.

It would be remarkably counter-intuitive for Spock to just blithely disregard logic here. The conversation later on between Spock and Kirk when discussing springing Chekov from the hospital reinforces this.

Are you sure you're not Vulcan yourself? I hope you don't dissect all the other Trek films like this

[RalphoR]

Logic is a pretty Humpback Whale that smells bad.

[SeaFox]

Request: Can we move this discussion of Star Trek book plot out of the blu-ray discussion thread?

[thatguamguy]

And if the factor of George and Gracie being raised in captivity precludes them having knowledge of the probe handed down to them, then that would also have precluded them from having learned the behaviour of whale song, which is the crucial aspect of their inclusion in the story.

I love it when somebody does that, it means that I can bring up the pedantic, accurate original meaning of "begging the question". The theory you are trying to prove is that George and Gracie need to have knowledge of the probe in order to save the day, so you can't also use that as a given to prove that counter-points are wrong.

The fact is, there is nothing in the film which suggests that the probe and the whales are communicating on a level which requires that much knowledge. You can infer it, but you can just as easily infer that the probe is simply looking for any whale song at all emanating from Earth, and is investigating why there is none. All the rest of what you're saying is more of the same, it's all based on you assuming that your interpretation is the only possible one and then complaining about the evidence within the movie that suggests other interpretations are more likely.

[GrouchoFan]

(I don't know why I let myself get dragged into these things...)

When you think about it, Spock is not merely "talking" to the whales, but rather mind-melding. His thoughts become their thoughts, their thoughts become his thoughts. Indeed, direct communication as we understand it may not be possible between the whales and humans/Vulcans (the Universal Translator doesn't seem to help). But in the joining of the minds, Spock made the situation and his needs known, the whales indicated that they understood, and agreed to help. Also, the whales are not entirely selfless; knowing what Spock knows, they know they will go extinct if they stay in the 20th century. In the future, they and their offspring might have a better chance.

On with the movie!

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by SeaFox

Request: Can we move this discussion of Star Trek book plot out of the blu-ray discussion thread?

I usually ignore "stay on topic!" whining, but dude... we're talking about how certain books relate to the movies in this BD set. It's not even off-topic.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by thatguamguy

All the rest of what you're saying is more of the same, it's all based on you assuming that your interpretation is the only possible one and then complaining about the evidence within the movie that suggests other interpretations are more likely.

That's not what I'm doing at all. Spock, the character would have been curious about any potential insight the whales could have provided during their meld. That's not an interpretation. That's the nature of the character.

The whales are intelligent enough to be understood telepathically by Spock and vice versa. So it would be rather odd to assume that their songs, the way they usually communicate, are not about or for any intelligent purpose.

Originally Posted by GrouchoFan

(I don't know why I let myself get dragged into these things...)

When you think about it, Spock is not merely "talking" to the whales, but rather mind-melding. His thoughts become their thoughts, their thoughts become his thoughts. Indeed, direct communication as we understand it may not be possible between the whales and humans/Vulcans (the Universal Translator doesn't seem to help). But in the joining of the minds, Spock made the situation and his needs known, the whales indicated that they understood, and agreed to help. Also, the whales are not entirely selfless; knowing what Spock knows, they know they will go extinct if they stay in the 20th century. In the future, they and their offspring might have a better chance.

On with the movie!

That's right. In spite of it not being what you would call an ordinary dialogue, Spock nevertheless managed to negotiate their consent to being involved in his plan. For me that doesn't sit well with Spock assuming or not being curious whether or not there is some intelligence to be gained from the whales.

As I said. It does not affect the movie or the way the story is told. I just don't go with the assumption that a possibility not being explored in the movie means that it can't be a possibility or noteworthy outside of what we are shown in the movie. Since Spock does not get any intelligence that he feels is worth passing on to Kirk then it's safe to assume the whales either didn't have it or didn't give it. Therefore it's not germane to the movie to show Spock, and the audience, that they're still going to be none the wiser by the end of tis film. On the other hand it might have been cool for the enigmatic nature of the whale/probe connection to be highlighted in the exchange between George, Gracie and Spock.

Excluding the possibility of what I've said is like saying because the mystery of the probe is not explained in the film, then everything that's ever going to be worth knowing about it is in the film. Or it wouldn't have been left a mystery. But it's the mystery that arguably makes the movie.

I'm not trying to impose anything that potentially undermines the film in any way. Stand down.

[StingingVelvet]

I still don't understand how the connection between the whales and the probe is something to assume a 1980's whale would know about. They haven't talked to the probe yet when Spock melds with them.

[Vandal Savage]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I still don't understand how the connection between the whales and the probe is something to assume a 1980's whale would know about. They haven't talked to the probe yet when Spock melds with them.

I just figured that the probe was just looking for whales, nothing more.

[RalphoR]

Why wouldn't the universal translator have worked? They could have talked to the probe and told it the whales croaked so no need to aquaform the planet. If it can translate Gorn how hard can Humpback be??
Seriously, does it really matter? Tis a movie my friends

[mikesncc1701]

Originally Posted by RalphoR

Why wouldn't the universal translator have worked? They could have talked to the probe and told it the whales croaked so no need to aquaform the planet. If it can translate Gorn how hard can Humpback be??
Seriously, does it really matter? Tis a movie my friends

Gorn weren't extinct. I always figured it was just a lost language and Spock only knew about it through his recent teachings after Fal-tor-pan. Plus the whole theme of the film is non humanoid creatures are intelligent as well so who would've thought to incorporate whale language on a UT?

[Lionel Horsepackage]

Originally Posted by GrouchoFan

Well, Spock wasn't exactly firing on all thrusters at the time.


And I despise all attempts by hack novelists to "ret-con" the sacred Original Series by dragging the Borg or Q into everything purposely left mysterious. The Doomsday Machine was NOT created to battle the Borg! The machine planet was NOT the home of the Borg! It's a big universe, not everything is related. That's MY canon.

Regarding this, it should be noted that it was Gene Roddenberry himself who originally opined during TNG's production that V'Ger and the Borg were likely connected (which is mentioned in several Okuda reference-materials), which is why this was developed in the novel The Return as a storyline.

[shinobipopcorn]

Not to jamb into your conversation, but I would like to mention that hints of the V'Ger theme were later reused in the Borg theme for First Contact. Granted, Roddenberry wasn't around for First Contact, but Goldsmith probably talked to him at some point while working on TMP and the people working on FC would have given him a run-down on the Borg. Easy to see some parallels.