Disney+'s - WandaVision (Season 1)

[mwynn]

Originally Posted by CyberpunkCentral

Then explain this...

[Show spoiler]

No, it's not just different logos. Those are two different studios. Meaning, Marvel Studios have nothing to do with those shows. Why do you thin WandaVision is the only Marvel show with the Marvel Studios logo instead of the regular Marvel Entertainment logo? Not to mention, Kevin Feige admiting he has nothing to do with the shows except for the Disney+ ones.

I thought we were done with this topic? There is no battle to be fought. Marvel Entertainment since it was created was for IP distribution. Just like how the books that IDW publishes for Marvel are not canon to the books published by Marvel.

[CyberpunkCentral]

Originally Posted by mwynn

I thought we were done with this topic? There is no battle to be fought. Marvel Entertainment since it was created was for IP distribution. Just like how the books that IDW publishes for Marvel are not canon to the books published by Marvel.

[Lutz]

Can someone fill me in: since Wanda completely closed the hex what were they using to imprison Agatha?

[joshsquash729]

Originally Posted by Lutz

Can someone fill me in: since Wanda completely closed the hex what were they using to imprison Agatha?

I wondered this too. I think she's just a prisoner of the mind. Wanda made it so that she fully believes she's in the 50's (or whatever era). I'd assume she COULD, but has no reason to ever leave Westview. As far as she knows, her entire existence is right there. Unless Wanda's Hexes are still floating up in the sky unseen?

[Rodney-2187]

Originally Posted by CyberpunkCentral

[trevrox]

Originally Posted by CyberpunkCentral

But like you said and I quote, "But Marvel Studios, Marvel Entertainment, ABC Studios... guess what they all have in common? They are owned by Disney. It's all MCU content made by Disney." So does that mean the Netflix shows don't count? Also Disney always had the TV rights to X-Men, not Fox.

The Netflix shows were produced by ABC Studios, my man...

TV rights to X-Men aren't a factor considering they never made a TV show set in the MCU about them, so what does that have to do with anything?

Disney/Marvel decide what is canon to the MCU, and officially the Netflix and ABC shows are canon. It's really a very simple concept to understand.

[trevrox]

Originally Posted by JayTL

It's a "One Way" Canon. The events of the MCU movies happened (kinda) in the shows. The event of the shows had no effect on the movies.

I wouldn't argue that the shows have relevance to the films, obviously they haven't. Certainly it is a one way street. But canon is canon, and they are canon.

[CyberpunkCentral]

Originally Posted by trevrox

The Netflix shows were produced by ABC Studios, my man...

TV rights to X-Men aren't a factor considering they never made a TV show set in the MCU about them, so what does that have to do with anything?

Disney/Marvel decide what is canon to the MCU, and officially the Netflix and ABC shows are canon. It's really a very simple concept to understand.

But your argument is flawed, though. You basically said anything under Disney or ABC is part of the MCU. Okay, well ABC were also involved with Helstrom and the X-Men shows as well. If people want to pretend the show are "canon" to the MCU, then fine. But there needs to be stronger argument.

[JayTL]

Originally Posted by trevrox

I wouldn't argue that the shows have relevance to the films, obviously they haven't. Certainly it is a one way street. But canon is canon, and they are canon.

So the real question, can you prove that they are canon?

Because I've seen enough of AoS and the Netflix shows that tell me they don't take place in the same canon.

[Erzengel]

Agent Carter has the strongest case for being canon with Jarvis appearing in Endgame.

Agents of Shield is next with having appearances of Fury, Maria Hill, Sif, Jasper Sitwell, Howling Commandos, Gideon Malick through the series also including references to events transpiring Avengers, Dark World, TWS. Through later seasons, it started to be less connections and stray away from continuity although they do mention Thanos? during one of the later seasons?

Netflix shows have brief mentions to the Alien Invasion in NY from Avengers and veiled mentions to characters like the Hulk, Cap.

Runaways and Cloak and Dagger have minor references to the MCU such as Wakanda.

I'm assuming a show like Helstrom probably has zero references to the MCU?

So, I don't understand why things can't be taken on a case by case basis and it has to be an all or nothing depending on if Feige is involved or if it's Marvel Studios or Marvel TV.

[j_sazin]

Originally Posted by Erzengel

Agent Carter has the strongest case for being canon with Jarvis appearing in Endgame.

Agents of Shield is next with having appearances of Fury, Maria Hill, Sif, Jasper Sitwell, Howling Commandos, Gideon Malick through the series also including references to events transpiring Avengers, Dark World, TWS. Through later seasons, it started to be less connections and stray away from continuity although they do mention Thanos? during one of the later seasons?

Netflix shows have brief mentions to the Alien Invasion in NY from Avengers and veiled mentions to characters like the Hulk, Cap.

Runaways and Cloak and Dagger have minor references to the MCU such as Wakanda.

I'm assuming a show like Helstrom probably has zero references to the MCU?

So, I don't understand why things can't be taken on a case by case basis and it has to be an all or nothing depending on if Feige is involved or if it's Marvel Studios or Marvel TV.

I posted this in a different thread, but to me I like to go the assumptive route of thinking all of these shows are parts of the Marvel Multi-verse. When it comes to stuff like Runaways or The Defenders which weren't mentioned even once in the movies, but were vice versa, to me I like to think of those stories as just sitting in a different/similar timeline. Agent Carter does have that one lone connection to the movies through human Jarvis, and Agents of SHIELD itself feels like its running in a pocket universe the entire series, anyways.

There's nothing official/confirmed about my thought process and no one should have to supply a fists-up argument for it. I like to think of it that way, because it helps include Marvel content together past and present. Especially when they may very well be cherry picking from past projects and bringing back Charlie Cox as Daredevil but in a re-booted form, or Evan Peters in W/V even if he ended up not being Pietro after all.

[trevrox]

Originally Posted by CyberpunkCentral

But your argument is flawed, though. You basically said anything under Disney or ABC is part of the MCU. Okay, well ABC were also involved with Helstrom and the X-Men shows as well. If people want to pretend the show are "canon" to the MCU, then fine. But there needs to be stronger argument.

I did not say that anything under Disney is part of the MCU. I said that Disney DICTATES what is and isn't canon. They can make Marvel content outside of the MCU if they want. But until such a time that they decide to remove any of the shows rom the canon they will remain that way.

[trevrox]

Originally Posted by JayTL

So the real question, can you prove that they are canon?

Because I've seen enough of AoS and the Netflix shows that tell me they don't take place in the same canon.

What would I need to prove? This comes from the content creators, not me. Disney says the shows are canon. I think this would be a very helpful link for anyone that wants to argue what is and isn't canon:

What "Canon" Actually Means

"Canon" does not equal "crossover." "Canon" does not mean "everything acknowledges everything else."

"Canon" just means something is officially part of a fictional universe/multiverse.

So now the question becomes: what is official to the MCU? Well, everything Disney says is official is, in fact, official. In 2012, Marvel TV and ABC announced a series "set in the universe" of the MCU, meaning that, yes, Agents of SHIELD is canon. In fact, all of Marvel TV's productions (aside from it's co-productions with Fox) are meant to be set in the "universe" of the MCU.

[JayTL]

Originally Posted by trevrox

What would I need to prove? This comes from the content creators, not me. Disney says the shows are canon. I think this would be a very helpful link for anyone that wants to argue what is and isn't canon:

What "Canon" Actually Means

"Canon" does not equal "crossover." "Canon" does not mean "everything acknowledges everything else."

"Canon" just means something is officially part of a fictional universe/multiverse.

So now the question becomes: what is official to the MCU? Well, everything Disney says is official is, in fact, official. In 2012, Marvel TV and ABC announced a series "set in the universe" of the MCU, meaning that, yes, Agents of SHIELD is canon. In fact, all of Marvel TV's productions (aside from it's co-productions with Fox) are meant to be set in the "universe" of the MCU.

I say prove because you just seem so sure that they're in the canon. Instead of saying "prove" I should have just said "source plz", so that's on me

https://www.screengeek.net/2019/12/1...v-kevin-feige/

“After Endgame, thinking, ‘What can we do next?’ Disney+ is going to give us this opportunity to tell even deeper stories with characters you already know and love…in a new type of cinematic way that we haven’t done before. We’ve already started shooting two of them and they’re very, very special. And it all, for the first time, will interlink. So, the MCU will be on your TV screen at home on Disney+ and interconnect with the movies and go back and forth. It’s exciting to expand the MCU into even bigger and better heights.”

They might have been a part of the canon when they created the show. The shows diverted from the universe more and more. And until something happens (Like Daredevil showing up and referencing an event from the show), then someone can consider the Netflix shows as non-canon as well.

[trevrox]

Originally Posted by JayTL

I say prove because you just seem so sure that they're in the canon. Instead of saying "prove" I should have just said "source plz", so that's on me

https://www.screengeek.net/2019/12/1...v-kevin-feige/



They might have been a part of the canon when they created the show. The shows diverted from the universe more and more. And until something happens (Like Daredevil showing up and referencing an event from the show), then someone can consider the Netflix shows as non-canon as well.

Nowhere in that quote does Feige say the TV series are removed from the canon.

And no, someone can not consider the Netflix shows non-canon. You can consider them irrelevant to the films, and you would be entirely correct, but it's not for us to "consider" what is and isn't canon. Canon is canon is canon.

The TV shows made by Marvel Television were created with the intention to inhabit the same continuity as the movies of the MCU. ABC's Agent Carter was even produced by Marvel Studios president Kevin Feige and co-president Louis D'Esposito, who also directed one of its episodes, while the architects behind the show were writers Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely who have written the Captain America films, Thor: The Dark World, Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame.

However, due to a corporate division between Marvel Studios and Marvel Television in 2015, only 2 years after the release of Marvel TV's first show, 2-way-crossovers between the movies and the TV shows never became a thing.

According to Kevin Feige however, the shows are still supposed to be part of MCU.

As he said in October 11th 2016, while talking about Blade:

“They did ask a long time ago and I think our answer was, ‘No, we’ll do something with ‘Blade’ at some point.’ That’s still the answer,” Feige says. “We still think he’s a great character. He’s a really fun character. We think this movie going into a different side of the universe would have the potential to have him pop up, but between the movies, the Netflix shows, the ABC shows there are so many opportunities for the character to pop up as you’re now seeing with Ghost Rider on ‘AGENTS of S.H.I.E.L.D.’ that rather than team up with another studio on that character let’s do something on our own. What that is? Where that will be? We’ll see. There is nothing imminent to my knowledge.”

And as he had earlier said in 2014, while talking about the TV characters' potential involvement in Infinity War:

"Is there room to include them in the features at some point if Infinity War is gonna be big. There are a lot of people from the movie in Infinity War, a lot of it is about space and a lot of it is about what happens between now and then, but all of those things, inhabit, however far in the outskirts, the same continuity. So certainly, that opportunity exists."

1 year before that, he had also made this comment, about how, there was no plan, at that point, to include the Defenders in the movies:

"Maybe someday. No plans right now. Maybe someday, but we have a lot of characters in the MCU, and one of the things that is so special about those characters on the Netflix shows is their dynamic together. They are all combining to become The Defenders later this year and are doing their own thing."

While Edwin Jarvis, Howard Stark's butler from Agent Carter, did have a cameo in Avengers: Endgame with actor James D'Arcy reprising his role, the character was from a series that had direct involvement with Kevin Feige and Marvel Studios.

While the canonicity of the shows cannot be questioned in any way (remember canon does NOT equel crossover), whether more characters jump from the small into the large screen is remained to be seen, but with Marvel Television being effectively defunct and all of their projects cancelled, it remains unlikely.

The Disney+ shows however are produced by Marvel Studios and will be completely interwoven with the movies with characters and storylines actually crossing over.

For more information on the long and turbulent history between Marvel Studios and Marvel TV and regarding the canonical state of the *Marvel TV shows, you can read this very informative essay on the subject

[BillieCassin]

I guess I don't get what the argument is. We know what happened. Initially, it was planned and announced that those shows (and AoS in particular) would tie in to the movies more directly. For various reasons, mostly business, they pulled back from doing so as much as they intended as the shows went on. I don't think it was any sort of philosophical thing - it was just business.

[kevin87]

Originally Posted by CyberpunkCentral

But your argument is flawed, though. You basically said anything under Disney or ABC is part of the MCU. Okay, well ABC were also involved with Helstrom and the X-Men shows as well. If people want to pretend the show are "canon" to the MCU, then fine. But there needs to be stronger argument.

Originally Posted by Erzengel

Agent Carter has the strongest case for being canon with Jarvis appearing in Endgame.

Agents of Shield is next with having appearances of Fury, Maria Hill, Sif, Jasper Sitwell, Howling Commandos, Gideon Malick through the series also including references to events transpiring Avengers, Dark World, TWS. Through later seasons, it started to be less connections and stray away from continuity although they do mention Thanos? during one of the later seasons?

Netflix shows have brief mentions to the Alien Invasion in NY from Avengers and veiled mentions to characters like the Hulk, Cap.

Runaways and Cloak and Dagger have minor references to the MCU such as Wakanda.

I'm assuming a show like Helstrom probably has zero references to the MCU?

So, I don't understand why things can't be taken on a case by case basis and it has to be an all or nothing depending on if Feige is involved or if it's Marvel Studios or Marvel TV.

Helstrom isn't even acknowledged as a Marvel property, they dropped the logo from it... it's not "Marvel's Helstrom" or whatever. They just finished it because it was already in production when Marvel TV closed, but Ghost Rider wasn't in production so it was dropped completely.

Originally Posted by j_sazin

I posted this in a different thread, but to me I like to go the assumptive route of thinking all of these shows are parts of the Marvel Multi-verse. When it comes to stuff like Runaways or The Defenders which weren't mentioned even once in the movies, but were vice versa, to me I like to think of those stories as just sitting in a different/similar timeline. Agent Carter does have that one lone connection to the movies through human Jarvis, and Agents of SHIELD itself feels like its running in a pocket universe the entire series, anyways.

There's nothing official/confirmed about my thought process and no one should have to supply a fists-up argument for it. I like to think of it that way, because it helps include Marvel content together past and present. Especially when they may very well be cherry picking from past projects and bringing back Charlie Cox as Daredevil but in a re-booted form, or Evan Peters in W/V even if he ended up not being Pietro after all.

That's how I choose to see it, the unseen-so-far multiverse.. Marvel Studios and Marvel TV are two different universes, because the TV shows acknowledged each other in some way, Cloak & Dagger and showing Luke Cage for example, and C&D . But there's no way the Inhuman stuff and the situation from The Defenders wouldn't be acknowledged even in passing in the films years later. The TV universe follows the same history as everything up to The Avengers but then deviates and has low level TV situations happen that don't happen in the universe the movies are set in. .

The only exception is Agent Carter, given closely tied into the movies Agent Carter was, and how often she was called back for the movies... plus they even used James D'Arcy as Jarvis instead of Paul Bettany, despite Jarvis AI and Vision being based on human Jarvis. Since it's set so far back and didn't interact with the other shows, I'd like to keep it in the MCU personally.

I'd also like to assume Agents of SHIELD is connected, at least at first until sometime after Thor 2, but the timelines kept getting messed up, (one where Thanos attacks but doesn't snap everybody for example, and giving a reason why the Darkhold looks different) but in the end, Fitz corrects it and they jump back to the current MCU timeline... leaving it open for any of them to return without the rumored Daredevil type reboot.

So yeah, two universes closely related by major events but not the smaller TV based ones... it makes it a lot easier to reconcile the stuff missing and accept than trying to fit everything into the MCU idea when they can't.

[JayTL]

Originally Posted by trevrox

Nowhere in that quote does Feige say the TV series are removed from the canon.

And no, someone can not consider the Netflix shows non-canon. You can consider them irrelevant to the films, and you would be entirely correct, but it's not for us to "consider" what is and isn't canon. Canon is canon is canon.

I can, and I do.

Maybe that's how my brain works..where you consider something canon until it's officially not, I'm the other way around.

There is zero evidence or proof that the Defenders or Netflix shows took place in the MCU (using the MCU as a reference).

The Defenders series is like the Star Wars legends books- fun little side stories that have no bearing on the main story, and ultimately don't matter to any of the scheme of things.

It's fine if you think otherwise.

[Joey9775]

Originally Posted by Erzengel

Agent Carter has the strongest case for being canon with Jarvis appearing in Endgame.

Agents of Shield is next with having appearances of Fury, Maria Hill, Sif, Jasper Sitwell, Howling Commandos, Gideon Malick through the series also including references to events transpiring Avengers, Dark World, TWS. Through later seasons, it started to be less connections and stray away from continuity although they do mention Thanos? during one of the later seasons?

Netflix shows have brief mentions to the Alien Invasion in NY from Avengers and veiled mentions to characters like the Hulk, Cap.

Runaways and Cloak and Dagger have minor references to the MCU such as Wakanda.

I'm assuming a show like Helstrom probably has zero references to the MCU?

So, I don't understand why things can't be taken on a case by case basis and it has to be an all or nothing depending on if Feige is involved or if it's Marvel Studios or Marvel TV.

Mentioning Thanos is what broke AOS from canon. They ended a season with announcing Thanos was attacking New York and picked up next season with a two year jump and didn't mention the blip at all. Jeph Loeb tried claiming that the show was "pre snap" which made no sense.

[JayTL]

Originally Posted by Joey9775

Mentioning Thanos is what broke AOS from canon. They ended a season with announcing Thanos was attacking New York and picked up next season with a two year jump and didn't mention the blip at all. Jeph Loeb tried claiming that the show was "pre snap" which made no sense.

It's just weird.

Thanos wasn't attacking New York. He sent a couple agents to collect the stones.

*shrug*