Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by CraigW

Not quite as good.... LOL.... then why is dts always trying to play catch up by adding other options to their tool and piss poorly I might add (flags that decoders don't handle... Really?). TrueHD was working reliably out of the gate without snap, crackle, BANGS...

Again I don't care which one is used but FUD here is un-freaking-believable.

Craig,
Here is the problem, you are spreading FUD yourself. Both Dolby and DTS are always updating their encoders to better performance and add features, not just DTS. Secondly, there is no evidence of any wrong doing on behalf of DTS and their encoders. If it was, then all of us would be hearing this big bang, and that is not the case at all. The problem was with some receivers and processors chipsets, not the design of the codec. I can stream DTS to my processor, and I have never heard the bang on my system.

When Dolby added EX processing to Dolby Digital, there were some receivers that did not recognize the flag to turn on the EX processing. These problems can crop up when introducing new technology, and both DTS and Dolby have had issues like this.

Balance, balance, balance.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

I guess what DTS is doing is probably no worse than Dolby mentioning that Dolby TrueHD can do 14 channels or more, when the format that it is referenced to can only handle 8.

Both DTS and Dolby use numbers to impress, not just DTS. A little balance might be in order here.

I know it's called marketing, but you can't deny the fact that dts was late on DVD, it was late on HD media and it was buggy initially. Dolby worked for me on day 1 with DVD and Blu.

Again I don't care which is used. I like both codecs but I am just tired of this attitude that dts is somehow infallible. As I said earlier we have already had a few iterations of the dts decoder on the PS3 due to flag handling (throw away channels) and it sounds like Sony used that faulty decoder on some other units that have not been updated and at this point will they ever be updated?

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

Craig,
Here is the problem, you are spreading FUD yourself. Both Dolby and DTS are always updating their encoders to better performance and add features, not just DTS. Secondly, there is no evidence of any wrong doing on behalf of DTS and their encoders. If it was, then all of us would be hearing this big bang, and that is not the case at all. The problem was with some receivers and processors chipsets, not the design of the codec. I can stream DTS to my processor, and I have never heard the bang on my system.

When Dolby added EX processing to Dolby Digital, there were some receivers that did not recognize the flag to turn on the EX processing. These problems can crop up when introducing new technology, and both DTS and Dolby have had issues like this.

Balance, balance, balance.

dts was not faultless in the BIG BANG problem. Many of the affected receivers were on the market for nearly a year before there was even hardware to deliver the MA tracks. The hardware/chipset makers did not create the decoder code. They simply license it. The more likely explanation is the initial decoder code was faulty and it was updated at some point after those initial models were released.

Again Dolby worked out of the gate for many users, but like I said I don't care which one is used, I just want a lossless option.

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by CraigW

Look as I said earlier I don't care which one is used, but I don't completely buy that dts has never tweaked anything. The SPR DVDs sounded significantly different between dts and Dolby. I don't think you can completely factor out that Steven Spielberg was a large stakeholder in dts at the time. He was upset that dts was not a mandatory codec on DVD.

If you have proof that DTS tweaked the mix, I would like to see it. Otherwise you are guilty of doing the same thing you complain about. The producer or director signed off on the mix, and that means they approved of its quality - different from Dolby or not. The DTS version of River Wild also sounds different than it Dolby counterpart, and Spielberg had nothing to do with that title. That would also include Super Speedway, Antz, Mousehunt, Daylight, Dante's Peak, Waterworld and many more. Spielberg had nothing to do with these titles, but the DTS encodes and the DD encodes did sound a little different. I like to deal with facts, not conspiracy theories. Saving Private Ryan on DTS used a different master than what was used with the DD mix, that is why they sound different. No conspiracy there, just a different source. If I had a second time to work with a release, I sure in the heck would improve what i could on the second pass, wouldn't you?

Thank you for refreshing my memory regarding the original dts JP DVD, but you know there were many upset enthusiasts with that initial disc. And the reissue which satisfied those people (myself included) used the same master that dts had used for the JP dts laserdisc.

Yes, the reissue had all of the deepest bass sent to the LFE, just like it should be.

The initial JP Dolby DVD did have some bass issues but not to the same degree. What we ended up with were three DVDs that sounded significantly different in the bass department.

Thanks for making my point. It does not matter to what degree an issues exist, the issue is there regardless. That was my point, both sides have had their share of issues during encoding, not just one side. Both sides are guilty of overstating things, and making mistakes, not just one side.

[trans22]

Originally Posted by ganthc

A question for those that are pro-DTS-HDMA. Is the sound difference you hear enough for you to repurchase movies you have in TrueHD so that you can hear them in DTS-HDMA? So for example, would you buy Quantum of Solace or Hancock if it was offered again but in DTS-HDMA?

for me yes but QOS already has DTS-HD MA, I would definately buy the MATRIX TRILOGY and BATMAN BEGINS if they re-issued with DTS

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

If you have proof that DTS tweaked the mix, I would like to see it. Otherwise you are guilty of doing the same thing you complain about. The producer or director signed off on the mix, and that means they approved of its quality - different from Dolby or not. The DTS version of River Wild also sounds different than it Dolby counterpart, and Spielberg had nothing to do with that title. That would also include Super Speedway, Antz, Mousehunt, Daylight, Dante's Peak, Waterworld and many more. Spielberg had nothing to do with these titles, but the DTS encodes and the DD encodes did sound a little different. I like to deal with facts, not conspiracy theories. Saving Private Ryan on DTS used a different master than what was used with the DD mix, that is why they sound different. No conspiracy there, just a different source. If I had a second time to work with a release, I sure in the heck would improve what i could on the second pass, wouldn't you?

Tweaked? used a different master? Regardless something was changed for the dts DVD release. And as far as sounding different now we are comparing the lossy version of the codecs which are based on different data reduction algorithms so I would expect some differences.

Let's get back to the topic on hand. Dolby lossless = dts lossless = PCM master. In the end they sound the same.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by trans22

for me yes but QOS already has DTS-HD MA, I would definately buy the MATRIX TRILOGY and BATMAN BEGINS if they re-issued with DTS

The only way I would upgrade is if Batman was sourced from the 24-bit/48k master if it exists instead of the current 16-bit/48k disc. And I would not care if dts-MA or TrueHD was used.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

Actually the original DTS release of Jurassic Park did not have a poor bass response at all. It was done much like the Transformers release. Instead of directing most of the bass to the LFE where it would be boosted 10db, the bass was partially re-directed to the mains. For those using a sub-sat system (all bass directed to the sub) the bass did not get the 10db boost it would have received if it was all directed to the LFE. It sounded weak on those types of systems. Those of us who use full range speakers in the frontal hemisphere, we heard all the bass as it was supposed to be. The LFE was weak, but the bass was all there.

DTS never cooked anything, that is a false rumor and a myth. As far as I know, Dolby recommended the surrounds be reduced by 3db for home video releases. That was not something DTS knew about, and when they did find out, they reduced the volume by the necessary 3db. No cooking here. All mixes that DTS did were approved by the producer or director, so there was no cooking here as well.

I am amazed that myths and rumors on both sides of this debate have such long legs.

Holy moly! I never knew that's why people were complaining about bass on JP and Transformers. I always thought they sounded fine and didn't get where the whole "there's no bass" argument came from. Very interesting!

[CYMBOL]

Originally Posted by ganthc

A question for those that are pro-DTS-HDMA. Is the sound difference you hear enough for you to repurchase movies you have in TrueHD so that you can hear them in DTS-HDMA? So for example, would you buy Quantum of Solace or Hancock if it was offered again but in DTS-HDMA?

Quantum of Solace already has DTS HD - sounds pretty darn good.

Saw Hancock in the theater and hated it - never tried the Blu-ray.

In my experience, most DTS HD tracks sounds great while True HD tracks don't consistently carry the same weight for me. I actually tend to find PCM tracks the best of all of them.

However, I judge each track on it's own. I would probably rent the Blu-ray and see if I felt it was substantially different. I only have a few I would consider looking at if that occurred.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

Holy moly! I never knew that's why people were complaining about bass on JP and Transformers. I always thought they sounded fine and didn't get where the whole "there's no bass" argument came from. Very interesting!

Yes, this a blast from the past. I remember the excitement/anger/anxiety in the enthusiast community trying to figure out how to tell the dts reissue apart from the initial release when Universal tried to quietly roll the disc into the retail chain. Eventually the newer copies had a red grid on the back, but it was hit or miss initially. I think Universal did eventually step and replace the defective copies with the reissue.

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by CraigW

dts was not faultless in the BIG BANG problem. Many of the affected receivers were on the market for nearly a year before there was even hardware to deliver the MA tracks. The hardware/chipset makers did not create the decoder code. They simply license it. The more likely explanation is the initial decoder code was faulty and it was updated at some point after those initial models were released.

Why wasn't I affected then? If it was decoder code then I would have had the same issue. It was the IC's used in the recievers, not the encoder. Some receivers did not have a problem at all. My Onkyo processor did not have that problem, even with streaming DTS tracks from the Toshiba A-35. It did not happen on all DTS titles did it? From what I understand the problem was hammered down to the IC's used in some receivers.

Again Dolby worked out of the gate for many users, but like I said I don't care which one is used, I just want a lossless option.

For most of us, DTS worked out of the gate as well. I have had no problem with either codec for that matter. You seem to be mentioning the problems of one side without including the issues from the other as well. Both have had some kinds of issues whether it is tripping DRC on when set to auto, or having issues with IC. Nobody is perfect you know.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

Why wasn't I affected then? If it was decoder code then I would have had the same issue. It was the IC's used in the recievers, not the encoder. Some receivers did not have a problem at all. My Onkyo processor did not have that problem, even with streaming DTS tracks from the Toshiba A-35. It did not happen on all DTS titles did it? From what I understand the problem was hammered down to the IC's used in some receivers.

It was faulty code. A simple reflashing the DSPs with the updated dts code corrected the issue. When the problem was identified and fixed, the newer units coming off the line had the newer revs of the DSP code.

It was a pretty simple fix for anyone with a little tech "know-how".

Simply get the ISO CD image, burn it, hook up to OPT1, put the unit in DSP update mode, output a pure CD signal (16-bit/44.1kHz), press play and one minute later problem solved.

And never said that any one solution was perfect. Do I like DN? No. But I have never had Dolby throw away channels on me or snap, crackle, BANG on me. Even Harold and Kumar Go to Gitmo had snap, crackle, BANG issues even on the non affected PS3 decoder. How that title ever got through quality control?

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by CraigW

Tweaked? used a different master? Regardless something was changed for the dts DVD release. And as far as sounding different now we are comparing the lossy version of the codecs which are based on different data reduction algorithms so I would expect some differences.

That is not what made the difference, it was all these titles used different masters for the DTS tracks than for the DD releases, the codec algorithms have nothing to do with it. That was my point. You are looking for a conspiracy, and there was none.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

From what I understand the problem was hammered down to the IC's used in some receivers.

That is what Ronny Katz said as well.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by CYMBOL

In my experience, most DTS HD tracks sounds great while True HD tracks don't consistently carry the same weight for me. I actually tend to find PCM tracks the best of all of them.

However, I judge each track on it's own.

And that's the point. I believe the implication of your first statement (that dts-MA > TrueHD) is inconsistent with the second. You like some soundtracks more than others and the ones you like tend to use dts-MA encoding. But, it's the soundtracks themselves that are different. The compression codecs used to store them on a disc don't create the differences you hear.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by CraigW

A 7.1 24-bit@96kHz track would not require more than 18Mbps during a 0% efficiency passage.

Really the max numbers are meaningless.

It is the 5.1 24/192 mixes that use the most bandwidth.
Over 24/96 7.1 you're dropping two channels, but doubling the bandwidth on 6.

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by CraigW

It was faulty code. A simple reflashing the DSPs with the updated dts code corrected the issue. When the problem was identified and fixed, the newer units coming off the line had the newer revs of the DSP code.

Wrong Craig, or mine would have had the same problem as the others. It was the IC, and that has already been proven. The decoders in those receivers are the same as mine, the IC's are different. If it was the code ALL receivers and processors would have had the problem, not just some. More than two manufacturers make receivers that decode DTS, if it was code then why didn't Denon receivers have this issue? Why didn't my processor? Why was the problem limited to Onkyo and Yamaha receivers, they use the same decoding chip as my Onkyo processor?

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

Wrong Craig, or mine would have had the same problem as the others. It was the IC, and that has already been proven. The decoders in those receivers are the same as mine, the IC's are different. If it was the code ALL receivers and processors would have had the problem, not just some. More than two manufacturers make receivers that decode DTS, if it was code then why didn't Denon receivers have this issue? Why didn't my processor? Why was the problem limited to Onkyo and Yamaha receivers, they use the same decoding chip as my Onkyo processor?

Then why did reflashing the DSPs fix it. I don't remember having to replace any ICs on my unit.

Regardless, the dts codec was not tested as fully as it should have been before it was released. The Onkyo units were a good 3-to-4 months ahead of the Denons, not sure about the Yamaha. And we know from the PS3 that there are different revs of decoder available. Not saying Dolby does not have different revs. Revs are fact of life in the hardware/software world.

Here is another example, some dts decoders recognize the ES-Matrix flag on MA tracks and others don't. My PS3 reports many Pixar/Disney tracks at 6.1 dts-HD MA, but when I only enable 5.1 output it reports the same track info as the packaging 5.1 dts-HD MA. Now when I play the same disc on my BD35 if decoded internally I also get 6.1 dts-HD MA decoded as 7.1 PCM, but if I bitstream this track to my Onkyo, it reports it as 5.1 dts-HD MA.

Now I have heard that other newer receivers from Pioneer and Yahama are correctly reading the ES-Matrix when bitstreaming. My point is that there are different revs of the decoder out there. Why is it so hard to believe that some of the initial decoders had a flaw. Regardless if it was the code or a compatibilty issue with the IC it was still a flaw that should have been found in testing. Arguing if it was the code or IC is just semantics. It was still a flaw in the dts system.

At this point we just have to agree to disagree.

Like I said I don't care which option is used as long as I have a lossless option available. dts has worked well for me other than the annoying not consistently reading the track flags on different platforms. ES-Matrix is accomplished by simply applying one of the rear matrix algorithms. See I use work arounds with dts also.

[davcole]

Originally Posted by CraigW

The only way I would upgrade is if Batman was sourced from the 24-bit/48k master if it exists instead of the current 16-bit/48k disc. And I would not care if dts-MA or TrueHD was used.

Now THAT would be worth an upgrade for me no matter which codec.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by davcole

Now THAT would be worth an upgrade for me no matter which codec.

Exactly. And I bet most of the enthusiasts here feel the same way.