Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutant Mayhem 4K UHD (2023)

[SCS_Shoug]

Originally Posted by StreetPreacher

However it's UPSCALED 4K? Can't they just 'render out' a 4K master of a CGI Animated movie? Or were the original 'assets' just not produced with 4K textures etc.?

Figured native 4K would really benefit the image quality on a Cinema screen?

There are lots of reasons for that. Server space, render times, processing power (especially in post-production), artists having to make even higher res assets than usual (ESPECIALLY with all the 2D stuff in this movie in particular, and many recent productions), as well as the difference being rather negligible to many. For most companies aside from Disney, 2K is basically the only current viable option to effeciently render VFX and animation out to. Disney/Pixar can only do it cause it's Disney, and they have the deep pockets to afford faster render farms and bigger servers (and I think they also use a special in-house AI/neural network upscaler to ease up the workload?). Keep in mind that without render farm upgrades and complete system overhauls, 4K renders will just take twice as long, and some productions really don't have that extra time.

[SCS_Shoug]

Originally Posted by StreetPreacher

And anyone else in my situation, do you prefer the lossless TrueHD/DTSMA on BluRay, or the compressed 'Atmos' offered on streaming?

For me it depends on the film and the quality and activity of its streaming Atmos mix. If the mix makes great use of the extra channels then I'd recommend it, but other times you'll get something like Spongebob Sponge on the Run, which has a completely borked and broken Atmos mix ( broken in MANY ways too, I'm shocked it's gotten so little attention considering how bad it's issues are. Might genuinely be one of the worst Atmos mixes ever purely for how broken it is) on streaming, and I would much rather listen to the 5.1 DTS-HD on the Blu-ray.

[StreetPreacher]

Originally Posted by trevorlj

I wish...we've had the same compressed streaming Atmos for six years and I guarantee most people can swing the extra 2.5-6 Mbps lossless would require.
Hell, I would pay extra for lossless streaming. A $1-2 surcharge per purchased movie or a couple bucks extra a month for a streaming service? Take my money!

Yeah, I just worry whether there's a large enough market willing to pay for a 'Premium Audio' streaming tier for services to bother allocating the required bandwidth? The bitrate on 4K VIDEO streams are already low enough that they often don't look any better than a well mastered 1080p BluRays, so are there enough people concerned about lossless audio for it to even be worth the trouble of offering it?

However, it seems that some MUSIC streaming services have started offering susbscription plans featuring 24/192 lossless quality whenever available, so hopefully as 'full fat' physical media releases become more scarce then streamers will start looking for any way to increase subscription fees. And like you said, as bandwidth and storage costs continue dropping it'll just keep getting cheaper for them to offer. Along with faster residential speeds meaning more people will be able to access the higher bitrate files.

[bradnoyes]

Watched this today with my soon-to-be eight-year-old and we both loved it. On the way out of the theater he told me I'd better but the 4K disc. So I guess I will.

[SCS_Shoug]

Originally Posted by StreetPreacher

Yeah, I just worry whether there's a large enough market willing to pay for a 'Premium Audio' streaming tier for services to bother allocating the required bandwidth? The bitrate on 4K VIDEO streams are already low enough that they often don't look any better than a well mastered 1080p BluRays, so are there enough people concerned about lossless audio for it to even be worth the trouble of offering it?

However, it seems that some MUSIC streaming services have started offering susbscription plans featuring 24/192 lossless quality whenever available, so hopefully as 'full fat' physical media releases become more scarce then streamers will start looking for any way to increase subscription fees. And like you said, as bandwidth and storage costs continue dropping it'll just keep getting cheaper for them to offer. Along with faster residential speeds meaning more people will be able to access the higher bitrate files.

EDIT: sorry for not reading the whole message before typing all this out and basically repeating your points haha

I think the big thing stopping it isn't consumer bandwidth, but SERVER bandwidth. Compressed audio and video keeps server space and bandwidth down by a huge margin, and if widely used services started offering lossless multichannel sound and disc-level video bitrates, that would all add up FAST and offer a far bigger workload for the servers. That's probably why Kaleidescape and Bravia Core are so exclusive, streaming/downloading to a very select number of users with very specific (and often expensive) hardware is significantly less intensive and thus more viable financially, as opposed to a service like Netflix or Disney+, streamers with huge installbases that are hemhorraging money AS IS. Lossless music streaming is more intensive too, yes, but almost all lossless streaming music is only two channel stereo. You take the channel count and increase it to 6 or 8 and filesizes, and thus, bandwidth bloat up pretty substantially. That's probably why Atmos music is still DD+ despite those services usually also offering stereo lossless.

Lossless movie audio on streaming would be great but there is no doubt it's not currently very viable for the big mainstream streamers, even if they added more expensive "premium" tiers (which most services use for low bitrate 4K and DD+ Atmos anyway).

[StreetPreacher]

Originally Posted by SCS_Shoug

Lossless movie audio on streaming would be great but there is no doubt it's not currently very viable for the big mainstream streamers, even if they added more expensive "premium" tiers (which most services use for low bitrate 4K and DD+ Atmos anyway).

Yep, if you look at the SIZE of a lossless audio stream for a 2 hour movie, they're probably larger than the file size of the h.265 compressed 4K video streams... So a movie with lossless audio would consume TWICE as much space on a server than using compressed DD+, which depending on bitrate can be shrunk down to a practically inconsequential size.

It's just unfortunate that instead of using technology advancements to IMPROVE quality, it's being used to reduce quality to the minimum acceptable level before average people actually notice and start complaining.
Who would have guessed that these companies would prioritize PROFITS over QUALITY?

[Bubbles-11]

This will be streaming on Paramount+ in the US and Canada tomorrow. Likely 4K UHD, who knows if the audio mix on there will be borked like Rise of the Beasts was?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by StreetPreacher

However it's UPSCALED 4K? Can't they just 'render out' a 4K master of a CGI Animated movie? Or were the original 'assets' just not produced with 4K textures etc.?

Figured native 4K would really benefit the image quality on a Cinema screen?

Sure, they could do that. But they probably figured its not worth the massive extra cost for mutant turtles, of the ninja variety.

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by StreetPreacher

However it's UPSCALED 4K? Can't they just 'render out' a 4K master of a CGI Animated movie? Or were the original 'assets' just not produced with 4K textures etc.?

Figured native 4K would really benefit the image quality on a Cinema screen?

Originally Posted by SCS_Shoug

There are lots of reasons for that. Server space, render times, processing power (especially in post-production), artists having to make even higher res assets than usual (ESPECIALLY with all the 2D stuff in this movie in particular, and many recent productions), as well as the difference being rather negligible to many. For most companies aside from Disney, 2K is basically the only current viable option to effeciently render VFX and animation out to. Disney/Pixar can only do it cause it's Disney, and they have the deep pockets to afford faster render farms and bigger servers (and I think they also use a special in-house AI/neural network upscaler to ease up the workload?). Keep in mind that without render farm upgrades and complete system overhauls, 4K renders will just take twice as long, and some productions really don't have that extra time.

Originally Posted by Ruined

Sure, they could do that. But they probably figured its not worth the massive extra cost for mutant turtles, of the ninja variety.

All CGI animated films are still rendered at 2k because of cost and time. Pixar does 4k DCPs now, but only a small percentage of scenes are actually rendered at 4k. The rest are upscaled. And as SCS_Shoug mentioned, they now use their own AI upscaling techniques starting with Onward. Here's a post I made a few years ago linking to a paper about it:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...5#post18463615

[StreetPreacher]

Originally Posted by puddy77

All ' Pixar does 4k DCPs now, but only a small percentage of scenes are actually rendered at 4k. The rest are upscaled. And as SCS_Shoug mentioned'p=18463615#post18463615[/url]

Interesting, thanks for the info!

I had been under the impression that at least PIXAR was releasing 'native 4K' renders of their recent movies like Coco & Encanto on UHD. I didn't know it was only select scenes, and that they were also mostly just upscaled... I guess it's still time/cost prohibitive to render entire 120min CGI movies in native 4K using current hardware.
So they're not even producing all of the assets in 4K then? And only bother with 'true 4K' textures etc. for specific scenes?

[SCS_Shoug]

Originally Posted by puddy77

All CGI animated films are still rendered at 2k because of cost and time. Pixar does 4k DCPs now, but only a small percentage of scenes are actually rendered at 4k. The rest are upscaled. And as SCS_Shoug mentioned, they now use their own AI upscaling techniques starting with Onward. Here's a post I made a few years ago linking to a paper about it:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...5#post18463615

I wonder if because of how expensive and overall inefficient full 4k rendering is right now, the few true 4K scenes are used as a base to train the upscaler, which might be how it looks so good and convincing, considering how they also used it to upscale all those catalog titles back in 2019-20 (besides Incredibles 1) and a lot of those upscales are some of the better ones I've seen for animation.

I'm also lazy and reading the document is annoying on mobile so please correct me if i'm wrong :v

[StreetPreacher]

Originally Posted by SCS_Shoug

the few true 4K scenes are used as a base to train the upscaler

This would actually make A LOT of sense, because isn't this a similar process to NVidia's 'new' DLSS upscaling technology? Where they're able to output high quality 4K video, by 'training' the up-scaler with samples of NATIVE 4K content that it can use for reference. And even real time 60fps games have demonstrated impressive results using native internal resolutions as low as 720p...

And I assume Pixar is likely using Nvidia hardware, such as the commercial H100 cards that are custom designed for accelerating AI, and probably include access to the DLSS tech being used in gaming.

[WorkShed]

Not going to lie. Every time I see this pop up in the thread, I think it's the 1990 film.

That said, loved this title!

[MifuneFan]

Walmart's release of the 4K Steelbook comes with an exclusive mini-poster

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Teenage-M...3?from=/search

[SCS_Shoug]

Does Paramount usually mention Dolby Vision in their press releases? I saw the press release for this only mentions the Atmos track.

[Ryan1973]

Originally Posted by WorkShed

Not going to lie. Every time I see this pop up in the thread, I think it's the 1990 film.

That said, loved this title!

Hopefully WB releases the original 1990 film on 4K UHD at some point. It's my favorite TMNT movie.

[Scott R.]

Street date is now 12/12. :/

Presumably to give it a wider berth on Par+ & PVOD (encompassing the lucrative Thanksgiving holiday).

[broseph71]

Originally Posted by Pieter V

So with all the pre orders going up and showing the poster art, what happened to this cover for the standard 4k? It’s wayyyy better

[mikehellstrom]

Nice stinkbug grab on the cover. 🤦

[Pieter V]

Originally Posted by broseph71

So with all the pre orders going up and showing the poster art, what happened to this cover for the standard 4k? It’s wayyyy better

No worries it's the final art.