Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

they both do, DN can be off for DTHD

what do you mean by "off"?

It is never "off" with TrueHD. If a value of -31 or 0 is entered in the DN metadata, then the decoder makes no loudness adjustments. But, dialnorm is still "on".

As for DTS, are you saying current decoders act on the DN values? A poster at AVS reported seeing a DTS-HD dialnorm offset on his Denon 3808 when playing a region B version of Mutant Chronicles. I use analog and cannot test discs such as Watchmen to see whether DN is processed during DTS decoding. But, it should be an easy test for those with decoding processors.

If DTS decoders process DN, do you know what value they adjust to? -31, -27, something else? Has DTS posted this information somewhere?

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by BIslander

what do you mean by "off"?

It is never "off" with TrueHD. If a value of -31 or 0 is entered in the DN metadata, then the decoder makes no loudness adjustments. But, dialnorm is still "on".

As for DTS, are you saying current decoders act on the DN values? A poster at AVS reported seeing a DTS-HD dialnorm offset on his Denon 3808 when playing a region B version of Mutant Chronicles. I use analog and cannot test discs such as Watchmen to see whether DN is processed during DTS decoding. But, it should be an easy test for those with decoding processors.

If DTS decoders process DN, do you know what value they adjust to? -31, -27, something else? Has DTS posted this information somewhere?

for all intense and purposes 0=off (no normalization) the other values will DN

for DTS, I don't know, you guys posted the links and comments that it is respected on some players and that there actually some titles that use it. As for how would it work (if it is used) then Peter had posted a link that explained it, I will see if I can find it.

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by mntwister

I am NOT saying that either format is better, but one case I have found is the Twister Blu-ray. Released in the UK in DTS MA 24 bit and in the US in Dolby True 16 bit. I am very familiar with this soundtrack, have seen the movie dozens of times. The UK version is superior without question. I own both and while I have no tools for measuring anything, and certainly can't make a statement to be sure, my opinion is that the DTS MA version is far superior. I imagine that this was a different transfer, as the picture also is much better than the US version (it was released by Universal in the UK so probably a different video master). The bitrate on the UK version is much higher in sound and picture as well. Generally, though, I feel there should be no difference between DTS MA and Dolby True, and if there is, the master is probably different.

Anyway if you buy Twister, buy the one from Amazon UK on the Universal label.

That's not a fair comparison now, is it?
One is 16-bit and the other is 24-bit. It could mean a lot of difference too.
And that doesn't prove anything about TrueHD. Dolby TrueHD is very capable of compressing 24-bit audio too. There are many Paramount movies that uses Dolby TrueHD 24-bit.

Secondly, there is also a chance that the two masters used to encode could very well be different. Although both may be from the same studio (Universal int his case), in the UK, there might have been changes to the master video and audio to make compression to PAL DVD easier.

So you cannot conclude in this case that DTS-HD MA is better.

[Anthony P]

not what I was looking for but http://www.dts.com/Professionals/Pro...dio_Suite.aspx
look at the user guide

[Robert Siegel]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

but you are comparing 24bit to 16bit, how does it say anything about the difference between Dolby and DTS?

I stated the transfers are probably different as well, the point I was trying to make is that there are variations in the 2 codecs (bitrates,ect) that can have an impact and just some friendly word of advice for those who havn't yet bought Twister on which version to get, I felt this was a good thread for the post because the American version is Dolby and the UK version DTS. I make no claim that what I stated is fact but just my observations on the 2 versions.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

not what I was looking for but http://www.dts.com/Professionals/Pro...dio_Suite.aspx
look at the user guide

Thanks. But, that's about the encoding side, not the decoder. The DN section recommends setting dialnorm to -31, meaning no attenuation.

I've searched Peter's past posts on the subject and have only found statements from him saying DN is part of the DTS encoding process. But, I've never found a link to anything in his posts, at least not the ones I've seen.

EDIT: I can't find anything on the DTS site about whether/how current DTS decoders process dialnorm. But, it seems pretty clear from the DTS Surround Encoding manual that DTS uses the same values as Dolby, with -31 meaning no attenuation. DTS recommends that movies be encoded at -27, which would appear to mean 4db attenuation by the decoder, the same as Dolby.

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Thanks. But, that's about the encoding side, not the decoder. The DN section recommends setting dialnorm to -31, meaning no attenuation.

I've searched Peter's past posts on the subject and have only found statements from him saying DN is part of the DTS encoding process. But, I've never found a link to anything in his posts, at least not the ones I've seen.

EDIT: I can't find anything on the DTS site about whether/how current DTS decoders process dialnorm. But, it seems pretty clear from the DTS Surround Encoding manual that DTS uses the same values as Dolby, with -31 meaning no attenuation. DTS recommends that movies be encoded at -27, which would appear to mean 4db attenuation by the decoder, the same as Dolby.

Someone could use the "Contact Us" page to verify.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Thanks. But, that's about the encoding side, not the decoder. The DN section recommends setting dialnorm to -31, meaning no attenuation.

I've searched Peter's past posts on the subject and have only found statements from him saying DN is part of the DTS encoding process. But, I've never found a link to anything in his posts, at least not the ones I've seen.

EDIT: I can't find anything on the DTS site about whether/how current DTS decoders process dialnorm. But, it seems pretty clear from the DTS Surround Encoding manual that DTS uses the same values as Dolby, with -31 meaning no attenuation. DTS recommends that movies be encoded at -27, which would appear to mean 4db attenuation by the decoder, the same as Dolby.

from http://www.dts.com/~/media/BD41007B5...981AB3D19.ashx page number in acrobat (not document)

Originally Posted by from DTS user guide p.20

6. Specify the dialog normalization setting (defaulted to -31 dBFS which is no attenuation,
recommended by DTS)

Originally Posted by from DTS user guide p.28

7.1.9. Dialog Normalization
Located in the upper right side of the Audio panel, the Dialog Normalization menu allows a value to beselected for the specified encode (as shown in Figure 7-7). These values range from -1 to -31 dBFS LeqA. The default value is -31 dBFS LeqA, which corresponds to no attenuation, in effect turning dialog normalization OFF. At current, all 6.1 ES Discrete channel layouts require a -31 dBFS Dialog Normalization setting. Dialog Normalization is a post-process operation performed by the DTS decoder. DTS recommends leaving the Dialog Normalization setting at -31.

Originally Posted by from DTS user guide p.90

DIAL NORM NOTE: If you are using a dial norm level other than -31db for your encoded Primary
Track, your Primary Track will be attenuated by the corresponding amount of db when it is mixed
in a Blu-ray player (Profile 1.1). For example, if a dial norm setting of 27 is applied, the resulting
volume of the Primary Track will actually be 4db lower than what you hear in your Pro Tools
session. This will change your overall mix when Secondary Audio is introduced in your final
content and not give you an accurate example during the stage of writing your automation. It is
recommended to leave your dial norm setting at -31db.
To simulate/test the effect of dial norm on your Primary Track in Pro Tools without affecting your
automation:
1) In the Inserts section of your Primary Track, choose Other>Trim to bring up the Trim
plug-in.
2) Choose the amount of attenuation that will be applied to the track when your chosen dial
norm setting is used (EX: Dial norm of 27 = -4db attenuation)
This will allow you to monitor how dial norm will affect Primary Audio tracks when mixed in a
Blu-ray Player (Profile 1.1) in addition to the volume automation of Primary Audio tracks.
If you must use a different dial norm than -31db for your Primary Track, and you would like your
Secondary Audio to have the same attenuation applied, there is currently one solution. Dialog
normalization on Secondary Audio is not supported in the MAS Encoder. So, attenuate the final
Secondary Audio in your Pro Tools session by the amount equal to the amount of dialog
normalization to be applied to the Primary Track, before bouncing/exporting your Secondary
Audio track(s) to be encoded in the MAS Encoder. When encoding your Secondary Audio, ignore
the dial norm parameter.

as for players, my guess is they assume they play back correctly and so a -27 will normalize it 4 db lower. Also http://www.dts.com/~/media/E4AA9EC70...4ABFFE459.ashx is the stream player userguide, not much on DN (except that it shows the value), but it does have the different 7.1 speaker placement, and, which I did not realize, a DTS MA track can be backwards compatible not only with DTS but DTS ES and DTS 96/24.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

as for players, my guess is they assume they play back correctly and so a -27 will normalize it 4 db lower.

I see you arrived at the same conclusion - that DTS does dialnorm the same as Dolby. But, it would be nice to see something from DTS re: the decoding side of the process.

a DTS MA track can be backwards compatible not only with DTS but DTS ES and DTS 96/24.

Yes. Fully functional DTS-HD decoders process the legacy extensions along with the new ones. Players with DTS-HD Master Audio Essential decoders do not do Neo:6, 96/24, and ES processing.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Yes. Fully functional DTS-HD decoders process the legacy extensions along with the new ones. Players with DTS-HD Master Audio Essential decoders do not do Neo:6, 96/24, and ES processing.

yes, but not talking about MA decoders here, for example if a studio goes with a 7.1 MA and someone has a decoder that can play ES, it should playback as 6.1 and not 5.1. I knew it had the DTS core, but I thought DTS core=DTS on the decoding side, so DTS MA would play back as DTS if no MA decoder, but if he can decode ES, 96/24 then it will decode it as that instead of just DTS which was something I did not realise.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

yes, but not talking about MA decoders here, for example if a studio goes with a 7.1 MA and someone has a decoder that can play ES, it should playback as 6.1 and not 5.1. I knew it had the DTS core, but I thought DTS core=DTS on the decoding side, so DTS MA would play back as DTS if no MA decoder, but if he can decode ES, 96/24 then it will decode it as that instead of just DTS which was something I did not realise.

DTS-MA can have ES, like Bolt, T2: Skynet, Bug's Life, etc.

I have to have them decoded by my PS3 to 6.1 PCM rather than bitstream them to my receiver with my other BD player because of this "Essentials" nonsense: I only get 5.1 from it.

[saprano]

I dont know why DTS uses dialnorm. its so stupid, its pointless, get rid of it. let me control my own volume level. the industry doesn't need this crap.

Does anybody know what studios use DN? i know disney doesn't from what sir terrance told us.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by saprano

I dont know why DTS uses dialnorm. its so stupid, its pointless, get rid of it. let me control my own volume level. the industry doesn't need this crap.

Does anybody know what studios use DN? i know disney doesn't from what sir terrance told us.

Sony didn't used to... however as we noticed in this thread, Ghostbusters and a few other recent titles may have it enabled...

WB and Paramount use it. I think they may be the only ones (and supposedly Paramount is going to stop using it).

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

yes, but not talking about MA decoders here, for example if a studio goes with a 7.1 MA and someone has a decoder that can play ES, it should playback as 6.1 and not 5.1. I knew it had the DTS core, but I thought DTS core=DTS on the decoding side, so DTS MA would play back as DTS if no MA decoder, but if he can decode ES, 96/24 then it will decode it as that instead of just DTS which was something I did not realise.

Yes, that's the way it's designed to work. Essential decoders only handle the HD extensions, not the legacy ones. The player sends the core and the legacy extensions when bitstreaming over S/PDIF. Of course, you still need a DTS decoder in your AVR that can process ES and 96/24.

[BIslander]

Dialnorm is always "enabled" for both TrueHD and dts-MA. DN is a required field in the metadata. The content provider decides what value to enter. Dolby encoders default to -27, which means 4db attenuation by the decoder. DTS encoders default to -31, which means no attenuation. But, it's the producer who decides what value to enter.

All Dolby decoders adjust playback loudness if the DN value is not -31. It is unclear to me whether any, some, or all DTS decoders adjust volume based on dialnorm. One post at AVS in December said the Denon 3808 used DTS-HD DN to attenuate loudness on a German release of the Mutant Chronicles. I'm curious whether others who have receivers with dts-HD decoders observe dialnorm attenuation when playing a disc like Watchmen.

[Kryptonic]

After playing some lossless audio tracks on my new receiver, I have to say that I prefer PCM and DTS-MA to TrueHD. TrueHD sounds great, don't get me wrong, but the volume levels seem too low and it seems to overall lack a bit of the punch that comes with the other encodes. Don't get me wrong, they still sound wonderful, but everyone has preferences with practically everything, so why should this be any different.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

After playing some lossless audio tracks on my new receiver, I have to say that I prefer PCM and DTS-MA to TrueHD. TrueHD sounds great, don't get me wrong, but the volume levels seem too low and it seems to overall lack a bit of the punch that comes with the other encodes. Don't get me wrong, they still sound wonderful, but everyone has preferences with practically everything, so why should this be any different.

You prefer the mixes of those films. If you're not comparing the same film with the same mix, it's not an assesment of the codecs it's an assesment of the mix.

You want to do an assesment of the codecs? Buy a movie with the same mix presented with different codecs.

Have you checked out the dts-ma mixes on The Fly, Robocop, etc?

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

You prefer the mixes of those films. If you're not comparing the same film with the same mix, it's not an assesment of the codecs it's an assesment of the mix.

I compared the TrueHD and PCM tracks on Superman Returns and found the PCM to be more robust. Even with volume matching, the PCM just sounded a little better.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

I compared the TrueHD and PCM tracks on Superman Returns and found the PCM to be more robust. Even with volume matching, the PCM just sounded a little better.

That hasn't been my experience with that disc, which I've owned since the Pio player came out.

Nor with Kenneth's review - https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movie...17&show=review

Anyway, I digress. The PCM 5.1 and Dolby TrueHD 5.1 surround tracks offer strikingly similar experiences. So much so that I had trouble telling them apart (after some quick volume leveling, of course).

Not to dismiss your findings of course, but I have also found this to be the case with Close Encounters as well (dts-ma vs. TrueHD)

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

I compared the TrueHD and PCM tracks on Superman Returns and found the PCM to be more robust. Even with volume matching, the PCM just sounded a little better.

Did you volume match in a way that allows you to switch seamlessly between the two versions without needing to adjust either on the fly? That's really the only way to do meaningful comparisons. And, of course, you need to do this as blind testing, preferably where the person doing the playback also doesn't know which version is being played. At the end of the day, home tests that most of us do lack scientific controls.