Power cords? suggestions?

[ryan4blu]

Originally Posted by repete66211

I don't understand the question. What's wrong with the power cords that come with the amp/receiver? Or are you asking about surge protectors/power strips?

my power cord for my receiver barely reaches my power condition, had to move things around to make it work. want to buy a long and possibly better performing cord for it. i have read on here that there are perfomance cords you can buy, wanted to get some opinions or suggestions here.

[repete66211]

Originally Posted by ryan4blu

my power cord for my receiver barely reaches my power condition, had to move things around to make it work. want to buy a long and possibly better performing cord for it. i have read on here that there are perfomance cords you can buy, wanted to get some opinions or suggestions here.

My opinion: "Performance" power cords are 100% snake oil. I have seen no evidence to suggest otherwise. Should such evidence surface I would be happy to amend my position. Note: Testimonials and personal anecdotes do not constitute evidence for this any more than they do for weight loss products or any other scam out there.

Just buy a longer cord that is thick enough to handle the load.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by repete66211

My opinion: "Performance" power cords are 100% snake oil. I have seen no evidence to suggest otherwise. Should such evidence surface I would be happy to amend my position. Note: Testimonials and personal anecdotes do not constitute evidence for this any more than they do for weight loss products or any other scam out there.

Just buy a longer cord that is thick enough to handle the load.

Sorry to disappoint you, but, I whole heartily disagree with you. It is not snake oil, but the benefit is much dependent upon the sensitivity and the revealing nature of the equipment in the system. With a very sensitive and extremely revealing system differences in ICs, speaker cables, coax cables, and Power Cords can most definitely be recognized.

But, I do not wish to get into a shoving match. As to the question of Power cords, consider the length and the cost of the associated components before considering spending the money. Try to let us know the value of the equipment and also how much that you think that you would wish to spend.

Rich

[repete66211]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

Sorry to disappoint you, but, I whole heartily disagree with you. It is not snake oil, but the benefit is much dependent upon the sensitivity and the revealing nature of the equipment in the system. With a very sensitive and extremely revealing system differences in ICs, speaker cables, coax cables, and Power Cords can most definitely be recognized.

But, I do not wish to get into a shoving match. As to the question of Power cords, consider the length and the cost of the associated components before considering spending the money. Try to let us know the value of the equipment and also how much that you think that you would wish to spend.

Rich

Rich, I don't want to turn this into a shoving match either, but in ideal conditions (i.e. a vacuum) you can probably create a situation in which a dressed up $300 strip of copper performs marginally better than a $5 strip of the same copper. Perhaps this difference would be quantifiable in some way, but I seriously doubt if you would be able to improve make a real world improvement in such a way that is humanly perceptible.

Assuming the power cord is of decent build quality, what percent of its performance would you say is based on nothing more than length and guage?

Originally Posted by kpkelley

Just like anything else related to your home theatre, there is always something better...

The Aluminata AC Power Cord

Perhaps such a cord would offer a perceptible improvement, but my question is, how can the average consumer tell the difference between a better cord and snake oil?

[ZIPPO]

I think "westom" should chime in on this . It'd be interesting hearing his take on power cords.

[Steve]

Without getting into the ongoing debate above, OP if you just want a longer cable without spending a fortune check out CablesToGo.

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by ZIPPO

I think "westom" should chime in on this . It'd be interesting hearing his take on power cords.

I hate to say it, but I agree. I can understand some of the valid reasons for upgrading certain interconnect cables, and even speaker wire, but power cables making a difference in your equipment is simply ridiculous IMO.

A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Does everyone agree with that statement? So why, then, would a cable built ANY differently than the standard builder's-grade electrical wiring that distributes electricity to your outlet have ANY effect on that power getting from your outlet to your equipment? It makes NO sense whatsoever, and I cannot think of a single scientific reason why it would. The possible advantage I can think of would be improved shielding, which would not effect the power going to your equipment, but the EM fields generated around the cord (if I remember my EE-basics class from years ago).

Now, I'm willing to listen to facts and I can certainly change my opinion if the case for multi-hundred dollar power cables is scientifically made, but I don't see that happening (and the subjective "so-and-so could hear a difference" argument is NOT scientific nor does it contain facts or measurable data). A fancy 4-6' section of the power cabling, out of a 30-100' power run from your breaker to your equipment is not going to magically change/improve the power you are getting.

[ryan4blu]

Originally Posted by Ricshoe

I hate to say it, but I agree. I can understand some of the valid reasons for upgrading certain interconnect cables, and even speaker wire, but power cables making a difference in your equipment is simply ridiculous IMO.

A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Does everyone agree with that statement? So why, then, would a cable built ANY differently than the standard builder's-grade electrical wiring that distributes electricity to your outlet have ANY effect on that power getting from your outlet to your equipment? It makes NO sense whatsoever, and I cannot think of a single scientific reason why it would. The possible advantage I can think of would be improved shielding, which would not effect the power going to your equipment, but the EM fields generated around the cord (if I remember my EE-basics class from years ago).

Now, I'm willing to listen to facts and I can certainly change my opinion if the case for multi-hundred dollar power cables is scientifically made, but I don't see that happening (and the subjective "so-and-so could hear a difference" argument is NOT scientific nor does it contain facts or measurable data). A fancy 4-6' section of the power cabling, out of a 30-100' power run from your breaker to your equipment is not going to magically change/improve the power you are getting.

Read this: http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/powercords.html

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by Ricshoe

I hate to say it, but I agree. I can understand some of the valid reasons for upgrading certain interconnect cables, and even speaker wire, but power cables making a difference in your equipment is simply ridiculous IMO.

A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Does everyone agree with that statement? So why, then, would a cable built ANY differently than the standard builder's-grade electrical wiring that distributes electricity to your outlet have ANY effect on that power getting from your outlet to your equipment? It makes NO sense whatsoever, and I cannot think of a single scientific reason why it would. The possible advantage I can think of would be improved shielding, which would not effect the power going to your equipment, but the EM fields generated around the cord (if I remember my EE-basics class from years ago).

Now, I'm willing to listen to facts and I can certainly change my opinion if the case for multi-hundred dollar power cables is scientifically made, but I don't see that happening (and the subjective "so-and-so could hear a difference" argument is NOT scientific nor does it contain facts or measurable data). A fancy 4-6' section of the power cabling, out of a 30-100' power run from your breaker to your equipment is not going to magically change/improve the power you are getting.

Better Power cords audio and even video performance will be more noticed when they are used with dedicated 20 amp lines with special wire run from the Circuit Box to special outlet receptacles and receptacle covers as has been done in my Listening Room/Home Theater. I am not recommending that most members of the forum do this because it is expensive, but there is a decided difference in the performance.

Rich

[westom]

Originally Posted by Ricshoe

So why, then, would a cable built ANY differently than the standard builder's-grade electrical wiring that distributes electricity to your outlet have ANY effect on that power getting from your outlet to your equipment? It makes NO sense whatsoever, and I cannot think of a single scientific reason why it would.

Which is why everyone making recommendations provide no numbers. Too many posts are only wild speculation.

1) If a citation has validity, then it discusses connector and wire impedance, characteristic impedance, frequency response, and other parameters involving insulation. None are provided because the recommendations are based only in feelings. A classic example of junk science. Those wires are recommended only on myth – no numbers.

2) 'Shocking' are those who need more circuits. When does someone do elementary school arithmetic? Every appliance has a maximum current or power consumption number on a label where power enters. One simply adds those numbers before posting a question or answer.

Some simple concepts. That 20 amp breaker means each receptacle / plug can provide up to 15 amps. Total power consumption from any one device must never exceed 1440 watts. Obviously, information posted without numbers is wasting bandwidth. No numbers is the first indication of junk science speculation. Why do so many *know* their equipment needs cleaner power from a dedicated circuit? Because hearsay and the resulting fear said so.

The first thing anyone does is collect numbers.

3) Another serious mistake not made if one learns the lessons of history. Why were seven Challenger astronauts murdered? Well, a secondary (backup) O-ring existed. Therefore it was safe to launch - said the uneducated. Not even one engineer said it was safe to launch - for a long list of reasons. They could not find even one engineer who said it was safe to launch. If depending on a backup system (second O'ring or that circuit breaker), then you are ripe for failure.

If the primary O'ring did not work, then complete failure exists. You do same with label numbers. Every appliance has a number where its power cord connects. Your "primary O-ring" is simple addition. Never depend on the backup system (circuit breaker) to save your ass. A circuit breaker that does not trip says nothing useful. (Only useful fact is if the breaker trips.) Do that arithmetic at least once to appreciate failure before it happens. To grasp perspective. To appreciate why those recommending more circuits are promoting fear rather than knowledge.

Monster Cable was founded on the same myths that now promote those 'miracle' power cords. That same objective is also why Monster Cable sells plug-in protectors. So many 'know' rather than learn. Which means massive profits by promoting a scam. Monster’s easiest scams were ‘miracle’ wires. Promoted by citations (similar to those here) that had no tech numbers.

[kpkelley]

Originally Posted by repete66211

Perhaps such a cord would offer a perceptible improvement, but my question is, how can the average consumer tell the difference between a better cord and snake oil?

The average consumer, with average to good components, who most likely hasn't updated their other wiring, would probably not notice a difference because some other component or wire will strike it out of balance.

That cord btw is much more than $300.

[Show spoiler]$3499 MSRP

[rded]

Originally Posted by kpkelley

The average consumer, with average to good components, who most likely hasn't updated their other wiring, would probably not notice a difference because some other component or wire will strike it out of balance.

That cord btw is much more than $300.

[Show spoiler]$3499 MSRP

Speaking of power cords...Let me chime in: The last time I was over at my dealer he had me listen to his System which consists of Dynaudio Sapphires, Burmester Stack(CDP,Pre, Amp, Power Center) with all Nordost Valhalla cabling we're talking about over 85k in gear. For sh*ts and he switched between a Nordost Valhalla power cord(3k) to the Odin power cord(10k) on the Burmester CDP and had me listen to the difference. The verdict, the sound stage had increased and the micro dynamics are more evident with the Odin power cord. He did this 3-4 times using different CDs as reference.We kept the volume and settings the same. Mind you the lag time between change was at a little over 5 seconds. No blind folds needed my friends

Now I'm not saying go out and purchase $10,000 power cords but yes they MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by rded

Speaking of power cords...Let me chime in: The last time I was over at my dealer he had me listen to his System which consists of Dynaudio Sapphires, Burmester Stack(CDP,Pre, Amp, Power Center) with all Nordost Valhalla cabling we're talking about over 85k in gear. For sh*ts and he switched between a Nordost Valhalla power cord(3k) to the Odin power cord(10k) on the Burmester CDP and had me listen to the difference. The verdict, the sound stage had increased and the micro dynamics are more evident with the Odin power cord. He did this 3-4 times using different CDs as reference.We kept the volume and settings the same. Mind you the lag time between change was at a little over 5 seconds. No blind folds needed my friends

Now I'm not saying go out and purchase $10,000 power cords but yes they MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

I'm just curious, but did you know which cord was being used each time you listened?

[rded]

Originally Posted by repete66211

No, but it would help. Bias must be eliminated when running a test. This goes for drugs, taste tests, a/v comparisons and any other test in which a person is being asked to give a subjective comparison of two things. Any results gathered from a biased source are, for survey and statistical purposes, invalid. Blinding is a very easy and reliable method of controlling an A/B test.

I'm not saying there wasn't a big difference and I won't (and can't) tell you what you heard. I will tell you that it's impossible to eliminate bias 100% when it comes to self-reporting subjective data. This is very basic science.

With all due respect Repete, I believe(and hope) you bought you gear because of your first hand experience/s on them and did not purchase them based on reviews by "credible" people in the industry, right? By doing so, it's your senses and budget that dictate that these are the gear for you... My point is, how can you argue someone's point that power cords actually make a perceivable difference when you yourself have ZERO experience with them???

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by repete66211

Rich, I don't want to turn this into a shoving match either, but in ideal conditions (i.e. a vacuum) you can probably create a situation in which a dressed up $300 strip of copper performs marginally better than a $5 strip of the same copper. Perhaps this difference would be quantifiable in some way, but I seriously doubt if you would be able to improve make a real world improvement in such a way that is humanly perceptible.

Assuming the power cord is of decent build quality, what percent of its performance would you say is based on nothing more than length and guage?


Perhaps such a cord would offer a perceptible improvement, but my question is, how can the average consumer tell the difference between a better cord and snake oil?

As I have indicated, the differences will be most noted with a very sensitive and revealing system. The choice of design and materials used in the power cord including the wire design; copper, silver or gold; shielding;, whether there is any filter in the line; etc. will all contribute to the performance. Just as in the case with ICs, Coax cables, and Speaker Cables, not all components and wire "play well together".

As to the percentage improvement I would say perhaps 10 to 15% improvement is possible. That difference can be heard possibly in how solid the bass is, how solid imaging and soundstage and depth, detail, percussive nature of the performance, clarity, how real voices and instruments may sound, etc. But, the difference and the value to the buyer/listener has to decide for themselves if they can hear it is the cost worth the performance improvement. For someone making the investment in a Power Cord, my suggestion is to buy if at all possible with a return policy if you are unable to "hear" or "see" any difference for the better.

Rich

[Steve]

OP......Have you been scared away?

[ryan4blu]

i was just asking some opinions didnt want to create a pissing match

see my sig for what i got. was going to use the cord for my pio elite receiver. needed some more length and i just thought why not check out a performance cord while im at it. thats all

some say there is a difference, but will i notice it? i noticed a huge difference in adding my Emo amp, but i do realize that is a huge improvement. was considering also for my power conditioner and emo amp. but i heard those cords are plenty good for them.

[WiWavelength]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

As to the percentage improvement I would say perhaps 10 to 15% improvement is possible. That difference can be heard possibly in how solid the bass is, how solid imaging and soundstage and depth, detail, percussive nature of the performance, clarity, how real voices and instruments may sound, etc.

Nonsense.

percent change = 100%[(final value - original value)/(original value)]

You cannot even estimate a percent change if you do not first have two values: one original value & one final value. You have neither, as these qualities you "hear" show no significant differences in measurable quantifiers.

So, your percent improvement assertion is hooey.

AJ

[joe1515]

Originally Posted by WiWavelength

Nonsense.

percent change = 100%[(final value - original value)/(original value)]

You cannot even estimate a percent change if you do not first have two values: one original value & one final value. You have neither, as these qualities you "hear" show no significant differences in measurable quantifiers.

So, your percent improvement assertion is hooey.

AJ

So what your saying is any one who invests and upgrades power cords, cables, interconnects, etc.... is an idiot, and all of the companies who sell these products are selling products that do not add any benefits.

I guess if you say so

Joe

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by WiWavelength

Nonsense.

percent change = 100%[(final value - original value)/(original value)]
You cannot even estimate a percent change if you do not first have two values: one original value & one final value. You have neither, as these qualities you "hear" show no significant differences in measurable quantifiers.

So, your percent improvement assertion is hooey.

AJ

I have visions of you writing down this equation in front of a chalkboard and being pelted with spitballs!

Obviously we have another academic here who can only appreciate numbers and be damned one of the greatest instruments of all...the human ear.

John