2025 Major League Baseball Thread

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by JackKnightStarman

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2

Let's see. Torre has the 5th most wins, won 6 pennants, won 4 World Series, and has 15 playoff appearances which ranks him at #2. You're smoking crack if that doesn't get him into the HOF.

[Terjyn]

Steinbrenner is a no brainer.

Torre's legacy is affected by Steinbrenner. A lot of the credit that would be Torre's on a different team goes to Steinbrenner.

I'd put Torre in anyway, but I can see why some might not.

[sycro]

I doubt Steinbrenner makes it. He didn't have the support 3 years ago and the only thing that's changed since then is his passing. Torre might but he could be affected by voters only getting 5 picks. I'm guessing LaRussa and Cox make it with Torre being borderline.

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by sycro

I doubt Steinbrenner makes it. He didn't have the support 3 years ago and the only thing that's changed since then is his passing. Torre might but he could be affected by voters only getting 5 picks. I'm guessing LaRussa and Cox make it with Torre being borderline.

He has better numbers than both...

He was also the manager of the team that had the most wins in a season.

[sycro]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

He has better numbers than both...

He was also the manager of the team that had the most wins in a season.

He has better World Series numbers than both.... but he has less wins than both and a lower winning percentage than Cox. He also has less division titles than Cox.

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by sycro

He has better World Series numbers than both.... but he has less wins than both and a lower winning percentage than Cox. He also has less division titles than Cox.

Isn't that more important than regular season numbers.... LaRussa managed 4 more years so he should have more wins, but as you said he has a lower percentage. Torre was also the manager of arguably the greatest team in the history of baseball. Cox consistently lost the big one despite really great talent. Despite winning division title after division title, he only has 1 WS win out of 5 appearances. Torre has 4 out of 6 appearances.

[sycro]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

Isn't that more important than regular season numbers.... LaRussa managed 4 more years so he should have more wins, but as you said he has a lower percentage. Torre was also the manager of arguably the greatest team in the history of baseball. Cox consistently lost the big one despite really great talent. Despite winning division title after division title, he only has 1 WS win out of 5 appearances. Torre has 4 out of 6 appearances.

I would say consistency and getting results across 162 games says a lot more about a manager's career than 19 games in October.

Torre was also a pretty lousy manager until he inherited a cash cow.

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by sycro

I would say consistency and getting results across 162 games says a lot more about a manager's career than 19 games in October.

Torre was also a pretty lousy manager until he inherited a cash cow.

And I would say you're wrong. Winning championships is indelibly more important in determining the success of a player or coach/manager. Championships not division titles is what elevates a legacy. This is what separates good managers from all-time great managers. There we go again with the money. It takes more than money to win a championship.... Why haven't the Angels or Dodgers surpassed the 1998 Yankees in most wins in a season?

[sycro]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

And I would say you're wrong. Winning championships is indelibly more important in determining the success of a player or coach/manager. Championships not division titles is what elevates a legacy. This is what separates good managers from all-time great managers. There we go again with the money. It takes more than money to win a championship.... Why haven't the Angels or Dodgers surpassed the 1998 Yankees in most wins in a season?

Because, like the Yankees in recent years, they've spent their money poorly. But when a manager has been on 5 teams and has had 1 good team, it says something about their abilities. He inherited a team that was likely headed to the World Series under Buck Showalter before the strike, and he made the most of it.

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by sycro

Because, like the Yankees in recent years, they've spent their money poorly. But when a manager has been on 5 teams and has had 1 good team, it says something about their abilities. He inherited a team that was likely headed to the World Series under Buck Showalter before the strike, and he made the most of it.

Unlike the Dodgers and Angels, the Yankees have won a WS in recent years... You're a Braves guy. 1982 ring a bell? First time in 13 years the Braves made the playoffs was coincidentally the first year Torre was a manager. In Atlanta and St. Louis he had a 608-583 record. Regardless, 4 World Series in 6 appearances is all you need to know for the HOF discussion.

Oh and Showalter couldn't get a very talented Yankees team to the WS in 1995 which is why he was fired. Torre took them to another level and won 4 out of 5 World Series...

[sycro]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

Unlike the Dodgers and Angels, the Yankees have won a WS in recent years... You're a Braves guy. 1982 ring a bell? First time in 13 years the Braves made the playoffs was coincidentally the first year Torre was a manager. In Atlanta and St. Louis he had a 608-583 record. Regardless, 4 World Series in 6 appearances is all you need to know for the HOF discussion.

Oh and Showalter couldn't get a very talented Yankees team to the WS in 1995 which is why he was fired. Torre took them to another level and won 4 out of 5 World Series...

The team made the playoffs after Cox set them up. Turner regretted firing Cox right after but it was too late. It's why he brought him back as GM right after.

After the Yankees, Showalter built another team up only to be let go and have them beat Mo the next year to give Torre one of his losses. Torre did a lot when he had really good talent and he got a lot of good opportunities. I still think he's likely not a "first ballot" guy.

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by sycro

The team made the playoffs after Cox set them up. Turner regretted firing Cox right after but it was too late. It's why he brought him back as GM right after.

After the Yankees, Showalter built another team up only to be let go and have them beat Mo the next year to give Torre one of his losses. Torre did a lot when he had really good talent and he got a lot of good opportunities. I still think he's likely not a "first ballot" guy.

The way it should be is Larussa>Torre>Cox.

Tony won a WS with more than 1 franchise and was 4/6. Torre won 4/6. Cox was 1/5.

Postseason success > ~200 wins... in terms of Torre vs. Cox

[sycro]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

The way it should be is Larussa>Torre>Cox.

Tony won a WS with more than 1 franchise and was 4/6. Torre won 4/6. Cox was 1/5.

Postseason success > ~200 wins... in terms of Torre vs. Cox

He has only 4 more losses too. He also has 4 Manager of the Year awards (3 in Atlanta, 1 in Toronto). He was the architect and then manager of 14 consecutive division titles. Cox will go in before Torre. You're actually the only person I've ever seen suggest Torre was better than Cox.

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by sycro

He has only 4 more losses too. He also has 4 Manager of the Year awards (3 in Atlanta, 1 in Toronto). He was the architect and then manager of 14 consecutive division titles. Cox will go in before Torre. You're actually the only person I've ever seen suggest Torre was better than Cox.

lol it's called Yankee hatred and jealousy. Manager of the Year awards are a joke just like Gold Gloves are. They usually go to managers of teams who were pathetic the year before or had low expectations and then made the playoffs or are very respectable. They don't give MOY awards to managers who managed a world series championship team or pennant winner the previous year. It took Torre having the most wins in MLB history to get his second MOY award lol. Also, being a manager of highly paid and talented teams come with certain expectations and pressures that Cox never had to face in Atlanta. Plus Torre had to manage in one of the toughest markets in the world with the flagship franchise of baseball. And he delivered!!!

14 consecutive division titles in a weak division, which ultimately only led to 1 WS win... Torre was the manager of a franchise that won 4 WS Championships in 5 years. Don't forget Torre made the playoffs in 12 consecutive years as well.


Edit:
Sporting News and SI named Joe Torre the best MLB Manager of the 90's
SI named Joe Torre the 3rd greatest manager of 90's behind Phil Jackson and Bill Belichek

[ChadFL]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

The way it should be is Larussa>Torre>Cox.

Tony won a WS with more than 1 franchise and was 4/6. Torre won 4/6. Cox was 1/5.

Postseason success > ~200 wins... in terms of Torre vs. Cox

No he didn't. LaRussa won 3 titles in in 6 WS appearances. I'd say Torre > LaRussa > Cox. Although LaRussa was pretty senile during that last WS win. I'd say they won in spite of him, not because of him. And like Cox, he should have won more titles. There was no excuse for those 1988 and 1990 WS disasters when he had 100+ win Oakland teams getting crushed by teams of much lesser talent. He also had a 105 win Cards team in 2004 that got destroyed by the Red Sox in a sweep.

While he didn't win a title outside of NY Torre did a good job with the other teams he managed. The Dodgers made 2 NLCS in his three seasons there. He also did a great job in his three seasons in Atlanta in the early 80's without a lot of talent to work with.

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by ChadFL

No he didn't. LaRussa won 3 titles in in 6 WS appearances. I'd say Torre > LaRussa > Cox. Although LaRussa was pretty senile during that last WS win. I'd say they won in spite of him, not because of him. And like Cox, he should have won more titles. There was no excuse for those 1988 and 1990 WS disasters when he had 100+ win Oakland teams getting crushed by teams of much lesser talent. He also had a 105 win Cards team in 2004 that got destroyed by the Red Sox in a sweep.

While he didn't win a title outside of NY Torre did a good job with the other teams he managed. The Dodgers made 2 NLCS in his three seasons there. He also did a great job in his three seasons in Atlanta in the early 80's without a lot of talent to work with.

You're right he did win 3. Torre got the job done, which is all that matters. He should be voted in on this ballot.

[fatediesel]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

Edit:
Sporting News and SI named Joe Torre the best MLB Manager of the 90's
SI named Joe Torre the 3rd greatest manager of 90's behind Phil Jackson and Bill Belichek

Bill Belichick never would have made a best coaches of the 90s list. His success didn't come until the 2000s. In the 90s his only head coaching job was a fairly unsuccessful stint with the Browns in which he only made the playoffs once and had losing records in 4 of his 5 years before getting fired.

[sycro]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

Edit:
Sporting News and SI named Joe Torre the best MLB Manager of the 90's
SI named Joe Torre the 3rd greatest manager of 90's behind Phil Jackson and Bill Belichek

Incorrect.... that was of the 00s. If they had done it in the 90s, I guarantee Bobby Cox would have won (even if he won less WS in the time, he was a winning manager every year except for the second half of 90 when he took over). He would have probably been 2nd overall (behind Phil Jackson of course)

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by sycro

Incorrect.... that was of the 00s. If they had done it in the 90s, I guarantee Bobby Cox would have won (even if he won less WS in the time, he was a winning manager every year except for the second half of 90 when he took over). He would have probably been 2nd overall (behind Phil Jackson of course)

Originally Posted by fatediesel

Bill Belichick never would have made a best coaches of the 90s list. His success didn't come until the 2000s. In the 90s his only head coaching job was a fairly unsuccessful stint with the Browns in which he only made the playoffs once and had losing records in 4 of his 5 years before getting fired.

You guys are both correct. In the 00's he was named that. Sycro there is a reason Marty Schottenheimer is not on this list. He won a lot too, but choked in the playoffs. There is also a reason Andy Reid never made the SI list. See above. Torre would have made it over Cox in the 90s as well. He won 3 WS which trumps a winning season lol.

Also, Cox won 4/10 Sporting News' Manager of the Year awards in the 2000s, yet wasn't ranked ahead of Torre... Winners of multiple championships are viewed in a different light than those who have won 1 or none. If you repeatedly lose in the playoffs, yet have extremely talented teams you have failed. You can have as many division titles and playoff appearances you want, but it's not on the same level as doing that plus winning the big one multiple times.

[sycro]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

You guys are both correct. In the 00's he was named that. Sycro there is a reason Marty Schottenheimer is not on this list. He won a lot too, but choked in the playoffs. There is also a reason Andy Reid never made the SI list. See above. Torre would have made it over Cox in the 90s as well. He won 3 WS which trumps a winning season lol.

Also, Cox won 4/10 Sporting News' Manager of the Year awards in the 2000s, yet wasn't ranked ahead of Torre... Winners of multiple championships are viewed in a different light than those who have won 1 or none. If you repeatedly lose in the playoffs, yet have extremely talented teams you have failed. You can have as many division titles and playoff appearances you want, but it's not on the same level as doing that plus winning the big one multiple times.

And Torre won once in the 00s, so your argument there is moot. Why didn't Terry Francona win?

And Cox won 4/10 in the 00s because the teams weren't talented. The Braves were picked to finish 1st one year in the 00s.