2025 Major League Baseball Thread

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by sycro

I know, but I hate the "ring" argument. Teams win championships in baseball, not single players. Derek Jeter wasn't an offensive powerhouse and he wasn't a defensive wizard (though he did have a knack for making some really good plays). He was a consistent ballplayer for a lot of years with limited injuries. The Yankees won championships because they had really good teams, not because Jeter was good.

Also, since it will come up, I do think that the Braves players should be devalued to an extent because they DID have really good teams who fairly consistently were the best team in the regular season and the 2nd-4th in the playoffs.

They still factor into the discussion. They shouldn't be just ignored. Especially when he was a large factor in many of them.

Hopefully he passes Wagner on the all-time hits list this season. He needs roughly 100.

[ChadFL]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

Derek Jeter's historical play at first base line - YouTube

Awesome. He made some highlight reels defensively.

[fatediesel]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

Derek Jeter's historical play at first base line - YouTube

Not to undermine the great play by Jeter, but if Jeremy Giambi slides like the on-deck hitter was motioning he's easily safe.

[walruswarrior]

It would be awesome to see the Yankees win the WS his last year to go with winning one his first year.

[squatting hen]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

It would be awesome to see the Yankees win the WS his last year to go with winning one his first year.

It would be awesome for a Yankees fan...

[Hatter]

Originally Posted by ChadFL

Awesome. He made some highlight reels defensively.

That was a great play but a lousy argument for him being a quality shortstop defensively. Piazza had his share of highlight reel catches too but everyone thinks he was utter garbage (although further analysis shows he was a good defender that happened to have one of the worst arms ever)

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by ChadFL

Yes, in fact you can ignore them to some extent. How many rings for example do you think Jeter would have won if he played on those Seattle and Texas teams in place of A-Rod? Almost certainly zero. You can only become "Mr. November" if you play on outstanding teams. Guys like Ted Williams and Ernie Banks never really had a chance to win a ring. Winning rings is probably 5% skill and 95% luck. This isn't the NBA where 1 or 2 guys carry a team to a championship.

The Yankees weren't exactly a championship winning team before Jeter broke out in 96. They were pretty bad in the 80s and early 90s. Yes you can only be Mr. November if you are on a playoff team. But one actually has to produce when you are there, and no one can dispute that he did anything but that. Winning 1 can be thought of as somewhat lucky. But winning 5 as a major component of your team means something and shouldn't be dismissed. How much more would it have meant if Chipper had won 5 instead of 1?

[sycro]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

The Yankees weren't exactly a championship winning team before Jeter broke out in 96. They were pretty bad in the 80s and early 90s. Yes you can only be Mr. November if you are on a playoff team. But one actually has to produce when you are there, and no one can dispute that he did anything but that. Winning 1 can be thought of as somewhat lucky. But winning 5 as a major component of your team means something and shouldn't be dismissed. How much more would it have meant if Chipper had won 5 instead of 1?

If by early 90s, you mean 90, 91 and 92, okay. But their turnaround started in 93, not 96.

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by sycro

If by early 90s, you mean 90, 91 and 92, okay. But their turnaround started in 93, not 96.

They weren't a championship caliber team in 93. 94 who knows what would have happened. Expos were very good that year as well. 95 I'll give you. Turnaround started in 95 not 93. You could even argue 94 if you wanted.

[sycro]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

They weren't a championship caliber team in 93. 94 who knows what would have happened. Expos were very good that year as well. 95 I'll give you. Turnaround started in 95 not 93. You could even argue 94 if you wanted.

They were a 2nd place team in 1993. If that's not a turnaround, I'm not sure what is. It's not like this was a terrible team and then Jeter.

[ChadFL]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

The Yankees weren't exactly a championship winning team before Jeter broke out in 96. They were pretty bad in the 80s and early 90s. Yes you can only be Mr. November if you are on a playoff team. But one actually has to produce when you are there, and no one can dispute that he did anything but that. Winning 1 can be thought of as somewhat lucky. But winning 5 as a major component of your team means something and shouldn't be dismissed. How much more would it have meant if Chipper had won 5 instead of 1?

You have to admit all the pieces fell into place in the mid-90's for the Yankees though. Wetteland was outstanding as their closer, followed up by the best closer of all-time in Rivera. They also has consistently outstanding play by hitters like Tito Martinez, Posada, O'Neill, Bernie Williams, etc. and starting pitching with guys like Wells, Clemens, Pettitte and Cone (for a few seasons).

I won't make any excuses for Braves players like Chipper or Maddux who usually underachieved in the postseason. Of Atlanta's "Big 3" trio of Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine only Smoltz was really good in the postseason.

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by sycro

They were a 2nd place team in 1993. If that's not a turnaround, I'm not sure what is. It's not like this was a terrible team and then Jeter.

Second place in the division to the Jays which wasn't good enough for the playoffs. Not exactly the beginning of a turnaround. 94 you could see the growth of a team that was ascending, but of course the strike happened. Some Yankee fans view it as the apex of our woes during that era. Finally we had a team that we thought could make some real noise only for us to get the rug pulled out from under us. That was the first year I really started to like baseball, so I remember that season well. That could have started a descent (it did for the Expos). Instead, the Core Four plus Bernie showed up and the rest is history. But let's not downplay the contributions of the Core Four led by DJ.

[Terjyn]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

I laughed so hard at including A-Rod in this list.

You can laugh all you want but when A-Rod joined the Yankees he was _by far_ the better shortstop, and the team would have been better if Jeter had moved to 3rd and left A-Rod at short.

Jeter is like Tim Tebow. Played a position he's not suited for, but too much pride to admit it. Difference obviously being baseball is a different game so Jeter could still do enough to keep his job.

[R3P0]

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

I only have Cal in front of Jeter and it's close. I laughed so hard at including A-Rod in this list.

How could you not have Honus as number 1

Years: 1897-1917

Teams: Colonels, Pirates

Career WAR: 126.2

HOF '36

He racked up 3,420 hits over his 21-year career, winning eight batting titles on his way to a .328 career average.

Despite hitting just 101 career home runs, he drove in 1,733 runs (21st all time) and topped the 100-RBI mark nine times, leading the league in that category on five separate occasions.

Yes of course none of us saw him play but those numbers in that era are incredible.


Cal Ripken Jr By comparison

Years: 1981-2001

Teams: Orioles

Career WAR: 90.9

HOF '07

3,184 career hits, but it was his power that made him a star as he launched 431 home runs, topping the 20-home-run mark 12 different times in his career.

Jeter by comparison

Years: 1995-Present

Teams: Yankees

Career WAR: 69.3

He passed the 3000 hit club like a season or 2 ago no small feat in any regard.

By far he is potentially the greatest postseason hitter of all time

.307 BA, 20 HR, 59 RBI, 18 SB line in 152 postseason games.

Originally Posted by walruswarrior

Banks only played 8 seasons as a SS, and played most of his career at 1B.

Ernie Banks Number for this discussion

Years: 1953-1971

Teams: Cubs

Career WAR: 62.5

HOF '77

In his prime from 1957-1960, he averaged a line of .293 BA, 44 HR, 123 RBI and won back-to-back NL MVP awards in '58 and '59.

Above are his numbers ONLY from when he played SS

Originally Posted by ChadFL

Yes. Much like Barry Bonds, Rodriguez was a dominant player even before using. He could have stayed clean and still crushed well over 500 HR's. Rodriguez and Jeter's numbers aren't even comparable. Chop 15% or so off A-Rod's career offensive numbers and they're still better than Jeter's. And I say this as someone who detests A-Rod.

Whenever A-Rod hurt his hip the first time that's when he started juicing. The only thing that taints him in regards to it is the fact that he lied about it and then tried blaming others for what he did. Honestly in his case it really was a quality of life issue with the hip, for that I could have forgiven him. But to sue people and ruin others lives and then try to pass blame for that I cannot forgive him. A degenerative hip condition is nothing to spurn the guy over, none of us would want to live like that, his only saving grace here is the fact he has enough money to make himself comfortable in his later years.

Barry is a totally different story. When he came up with the pirates in his early years he was not the powerhouse he was with the giants. He had only hit 30 HR 2x before he left Pittsburgh, most of the time he was a 40+ SB guy. in 90 and 92 he hit 33 and 34 HR respectively, then his first year in SF he jumped to 46. Its very easy to see where the roids came in with Barry. His last year in Pitt and his first year in SF somewhere around there is when he started using.

[sycro]

Originally Posted by R3P0

Barry is a totally different story. When he came up with the pirates in his early years he was not the powerhouse he was with the giants. He had only hit 30 HR 2x before he left Pittsburgh, most of the time he was a 40+ SB guy. in 90 and 92 he hit 33 and 34 HR respectively, then his first year in SF he jumped to 46. Its very easy to see where the roids came in with Barry. His last year in Pitt and his first year in SF somewhere around there is when he started using.

Couldn't disagree more. Barry was still young and hitting his expected peak in 93/94. His roid use was a response to McGwire/Sosa.

[R3P0]

Originally Posted by sycro

Couldn't disagree more. Barry was still young and hitting his expected peak in 93/94. His roid use was a response to McGwire/Sosa.

We can agree to disagree that's fine, but at the same time im looking purley at his numbers. He jumped from 34 to 46 thats not a small jump. Before that he was 25ish or so for most of his seasons, He had 1 season in 1990 where he hit above 30 HR to a tune of 33, then he was back down to 25, then in 92 he jumped to 34, 93 he jumped to 46. I am not arguing is merits as to why he did it, I am simply saying this is where he started using and its obvious.

[ChadFL]

Originally Posted by R3P0

Jeter by comparison

Years: 1995-Present

Teams: Yankees

Career WAR: 69.3

He passed the 3000 hit club like a season or 2 ago no small feat in any regard.

By far he is potentially the greatest postseason hitter of all time

.307 BA, 20 HR, 59 RBI, 18 SB line in 152 postseason games.

Meh, Jeter just had more opportunities in the postseason than players in the early days. Until, I think it was 1969 the only postseason was the World Series. Just one round. Here are Babe Ruth's postseason numbers.

.326 BA, .467 OBP, 15 HR, 33 RBI in just 167 At bats or 41 postseason games. To top it off Ruth went 3-0 in his three postseason (WS) games as a pitcher with a 0.87 ERA.

Ditto on Lou Gehrig whose postseason numbers were: .361 BA, .477 OBP, 10 HR, 35 RBI in only 34 games.

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by Terjyn

You can laugh all you want but when A-Rod joined the Yankees he was _by far_ the better shortstop, and the team would have been better if Jeter had moved to 3rd and left A-Rod at short.

Jeter is like Tim Tebow. Played a position he's not suited for, but too much pride to admit it. Difference obviously being baseball is a different game so Jeter could still do enough to keep his job.

Lol more crazy statements. Jeter is Tebow . Wow I mean you know there will be haters with the amount of continued success he's had, but you're never prepared for statements like this.

ARod couldn't handle DJs jock strap.

[walruswarrior]

Originally Posted by R3P0

How could you not have Honus as number 1

Years: 1897-1917

Teams: Colonels, Pirates

Career WAR: 126.2

HOF '36

He racked up 3,420 hits over his 21-year career, winning eight batting titles on his way to a .328 career average.

Despite hitting just 101 career home runs, he drove in 1,733 runs (21st all time) and topped the 100-RBI mark nine times, leading the league in that category on five separate occasions.

Yes of course none of us saw him play but those numbers in that era are incredible.


Cal Ripken Jr By comparison

Years: 1981-2001

Teams: Orioles

Career WAR: 90.9

HOF '07

3,184 career hits, but it was his power that made him a star as he launched 431 home runs, topping the 20-home-run mark 12 different times in his career.

Jeter by comparison

Years: 1995-Present

Teams: Yankees

Career WAR: 69.3

He passed the 3000 hit club like a season or 2 ago no small feat in any regard.

By far he is potentially the greatest postseason hitter of all time

.307 BA, 20 HR, 59 RBI, 18 SB line in 152 postseason games.



Ernie Banks Number for this discussion

Years: 1953-1971

Teams: Cubs

Career WAR: 62.5

HOF '77

In his prime from 1957-1960, he averaged a line of .293 BA, 44 HR, 123 RBI and won back-to-back NL MVP awards in '58 and '59.

Above are his numbers ONLY from when he played SS



Whenever A-Rod hurt his hip the first time that's when he started juicing. The only thing that taints him in regards to it is the fact that he lied about it and then tried blaming others for what he did. Honestly in his case it really was a quality of life issue with the hip, for that I could have forgiven him. But to sue people and ruin others lives and then try to pass blame for that I cannot forgive him. A degenerative hip condition is nothing to spurn the guy over, none of us would want to live like that, his only saving grace here is the fact he has enough money to make himself comfortable in his later years.

Barry is a totally different story. When he came up with the pirates in his early years he was not the powerhouse he was with the giants. He had only hit 30 HR 2x before he left Pittsburgh, most of the time he was a 40+ SB guy. in 90 and 92 he hit 33 and 34 HR respectively, then his first year in SF he jumped to 46. Its very easy to see where the roids came in with Barry. His last year in Pitt and his first year in SF somewhere around there is when he started using.

I have a hard time comparing eras. The guy was dominant in his era. Absolutely. It's akin to comparing Otto Graham to any modern guy. Otto was dominant in his era, but would he dominate during this era in the NFL. Not sure about that. Would Honus be able to replicate that type of success in the modern game when they were juicing like superheroes? I'm not so sure. Hopefully Jeter will pass him on the hits list this year and be 5th all time, which is nothing to sneeze at.

[sycro]

Originally Posted by R3P0

We can agree to disagree that's fine, but at the same time im looking purley at his numbers. He jumped from 34 to 46 thats not a small jump. Before that he was 25ish or so for most of his seasons, He had 1 season in 1990 where he hit above 30 HR to a tune of 33, then he was back down to 25, then in 92 he jumped to 34, 93 he jumped to 46. I am not arguing is merits as to why he did it, I am simply saying this is where he started using and its obvious.

But none of those is that giant of a leap, especially for a guy in the prime years of his career (he was 28 when he hit 40+). The increase in HRs could also be a consequence of both playing more games (19 more than the previous season, and 7 and 8 more than the previous) and becoming a better hitter (jumping from ~.300 to .336). 92-98 he followed the course of a power hitter in their peak years. It was 2000 and on where his numbers were significantly higher than what could be expected.