Early Blu-rays that may have playback issues (Criterion, Well Go USA, etc.)

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Jett Rink

Am I the only one that feels people are blowing this way out of proportion? I mean, life is unfair and all. I usually accept what is handed to me be it a defective disc or something else.

Expecting a disc to play when you put it in the player isn't entirely unreasonable.

[neo_reloaded]

Originally Posted by octagon

Expecting a disc to play when you put it in the player isn't entirely unreasonable.

I think he's more referring to the people that are saying "Oh no! Because some percentage of discs are afflicted by a manufacturing error, I can never ever ever own a particular film on Blu-ray because I'll never feel 100% safe that that disc won't die someday! That film is ruined for me forever!"

[Brian81]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

We need to start assessing the real damage to our collections. Would someone post a complete list of out-of-print Criterion BDs. I've never even watched my copy of Howards End.

same here, picked it up when it was going OOP in the event I'd have interest in it later on...

[octagon]

Originally Posted by neo_reloaded

I think he's more referring to the people that are saying "Oh no! Because some percentage of discs are afflicted by a manufacturing error, I can never ever ever own a particular film on Blu-ray because I'll never feel 100% safe that that disc won't die someday! That film is ruined for me forever!"

How do you reconcile that take with 'I usually accept what is handed to me be it a defective disc or something else'?

[Brian81]

I have been updating my post#541. So far (using my discs) of all the ones where I've checked both the number on the plastic and the number in the matrix, I've found that all of the titles with LB42 or L021 have either 10K6 or 10K7. All the titles that have L32* seem to be QW**...

[neo_reloaded]

Originally Posted by octagon

How do you reconcile that take with 'I usually accept what is handed to me be it a defective disc or something else'?

I'm not sure what you're asking here...

I'm not saying one should accept defective discs. I'm saying that if your disc is not visibly bronzing, if your disc does not have playback or computer-scanning errors, and if your disc does not have SID's that have been identified as likely to be defective, GREAT! Your disc is most likely fine!

Just because some bad batches are out there doesn't mean every single disc is bad, and you're being way too OCD if the very existence of problems for a certain title means you can never ever own that title no matter how symptom-free your copy is.

[starman15317]

If you really want to watch one of these films now but you have the rot issue, there's other ways other than Criterion to see them.

But in the long run, I'm sure that this issue will be of little importance. But I do hope that none of my discs go bad.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by neo_reloaded

I'm not sure what you're asking here...

I was simply pointing out that your interpretation of Jett Rink's post wasn't all that consistent with the post itself.

Originally Posted by neo_reloaded

I'm not saying one should accept defective discs. I'm saying that if your disc is not visibly bronzing, if your disc does not have playback or computer-scanning errors, and if your disc does not have SID's that have been identified as likely to be defective, GREAT! Your disc is most likely fine!

Just because some bad batches are out there doesn't mean every single disc is bad, and you're being way too OCD if the very existence of problems for a certain title means you can never ever own that title no matter how symptom-free your copy is.

So you're basically railing against what here? Two or three people?

Take away the one goofball who by the second page was threatening to divorce Criterion because of alienation of affection and extreme mentally cruelty and most of the responses have been fairly measured.

[neo_reloaded]

Originally Posted by octagon

I was simply pointing out that your interpretation of Jett Rink's post wasn't all that consistent with the post itself.

I guess I didn't fully register the second line. I agree with "some people are blowing this out of proportion."

So you're basically railing against what here? Two or three people?

I'm referring to the handful of people Jett Rink was presumably talking about as well! I'm certainly not saying this whole thread is "blowing it out of proportion," nor do I think Jett Rink was saying that.

I don't feel like getting into a big semantics argument here, and I apologize for any confusion I contributed to here. Let's get back to the useful work of figuring out replication plants and such.

[Joe Dalek]

Originally Posted by ShellOilJunior

I think if it is at all possible to get the rights back on the OOP titles they definitely would do it. The Man Who Fell to Earth is rumored to be coming back in print.

I think what CC could offer is (1) Free blu-ray and in the event of the title going back in print the customer would get it on blu-ray for free. I think that's fair because a given OOP title may never come back into print.

They'll offer a free Blu-ray, or $32 credit, or whatever, but there is no way they will keep a running list of people who bought OOP Title X on the off-chance they get the rights back one day.

[Joe Dalek]

Originally Posted by nickersonw

I fast forwarded through it and didn't notice any problems. I am scanning it now and so far it is all good at 87.5%

It isn't as bad as some of the pictures I've seen posted. I've tried getting a picture of it but it isn't showing up to well.

I'm pretty sure I fast-forwarded through my first Paris, Texas disc to get past the section with the error. Point being that fast-forwarding is not necessarily going to reveal a freezing problem. You have to play it.

My second Paris, Texas disc plays fine, so I don't know what to think since they were probably pressed at the same time.

[Brian81]

Guys/gals, instead of looking for the microscopic L021 or LB42 in the matrix, the embossed clear numbers on the clear part of the spindle is easier to read. All the discs I've checked that have had those numbers have been 10K6 or 10K7. All those L32* titles have been QW**.

I would also recommend checking out your discs as old as THE WAGES OF FEAR.

[Freeza]

Originally Posted by Brian81

I have been updating my post#541. So far (using my discs) of all the ones where I've checked both the number on the plastic and the number in the matrix, I've found that all of the titles with LB42 or L021 have either 10K6 or 10K7. All the titles that have L32* seem to be QW**...

Seems consistent with what I've found with mine as well.

Howard's End ------------ IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Walkabout --------------- IFPI LB42 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Bigger Than Life ---------- IFPI LB42 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Lola Montes -------------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK7
Hunger ------------------ IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Revanche ---------------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Che (disc 1) ------------- IFPI LB42 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Che (disc 2) ------------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK6
8 1/2 -------------------- IFPI LB42 (both) - Mould 1OK7
A Christmas Tale --------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Wings Of Desire ---------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Monsoon Wedding -------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK7
Complete Monterey ------- IFPI Can't Find IFPI #, only has AO2 on both discs - Mould 1OK7
Jimmy Plays Monterey ---- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Paris Texas -------------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK7
Days Of Heaven ---------- IFPI LB42 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Stagecoach -------------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Vivre Sa Vie -------------- IFPI LB42 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Ride With The Devil ------- IFPI LB42 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Seventh Seal ------------- IFPI L021 (Both) - Mould 1OK6
Summer Hours ------------ IFPI LB42 (both) - Mould 1OK7 tarnishing, freezing at layer change

Gomorrah ---------------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK8 - 3 large circular spots at symmetrical distances on data surface around inner ring, like you'd see if a suction cup device was used to lift the disc, only this is beneath the laminate and the circles aren't even.

By Brakhage (Vol 1) ------------ IFPI L323 Inner - IFPI L322 Outer - Mould OWY6
By Brakhage (Vol 2, disc 1) ----- IFPI L322 Inner - IFPI L324 Outer - Mould OWYM
By Brakhage (Vol 2, disc 2) ------IFPI L324 Inner - IFPI L325 Outer - Mould OWZ2
Chungking Express (Digipack) --- IFPI L321 Inner - IFPI L324 Outer - Mould OWYW

[Brian81]

Originally Posted by Freeza

Seems consistent with what I've found with mine as well.

I've gone as far as checking discs that were released for a few months before and after the ranges provided on here and AVS Forum. AVS range seems to follow what I've come to see within my own discs, as far as matrix numbers and pressing plant numbers show...except for WAGES OF FEAR. This one came out a little before ITROTS and is one of the 10** titles, though there was no number to be found in the matrix.


Needless to say, I know what range of titles I won't be picking up unless they go OOP. Don't want some dead discs down the line.

People with CLOSE-UP, MYSTERY TRAIN, and other titles released right after STAGECOACH might want to check the #s on their discs, to see if they came from the same plant in that period.

[pedromvu]

Originally Posted by Freeza

Howard's End ------------ IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Walkabout --------------- IFPI LB42 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Bigger Than Life ---------- IFPI LB42 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Lola Montes -------------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK7
Hunger ------------------ IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Revanche ---------------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Che (disc 1) ------------- IFPI LB42 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Che (disc 2) ------------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK6
8 1/2 -------------------- IFPI LB42 (both) - Mould 1OK7
A Christmas Tale --------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Wings Of Desire ---------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Monsoon Wedding -------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK7
Complete Monterey ------- IFPI Can't Find IFPI #, only has AO2 on both discs - Mould 1OK7
Jimmy Plays Monterey ---- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Paris Texas -------------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK7
Days Of Heaven ---------- IFPI LB42 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Stagecoach -------------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Vivre Sa Vie -------------- IFPI LB42 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Ride With The Devil ------- IFPI LB42 (both) - Mould 1OK6
Seventh Seal ------------- IFPI L021 (Both) - Mould 1OK6
Summer Hours ------------ IFPI LB42 (both) - Mould 1OK7 tarnishing, freezing at layer change
Gomorrah ---------------- IFPI L021 (both) - Mould 1OK8 - 3 large circular spots at symmetrical distances on data surface around inner ring, like you'd see if a suction cup device was used to lift the disc, only this is beneath the laminate and the circles aren't even.

looks like most of your discs are first pressing, this seems to confirm that while most of these discs were pressed at the same place, only some of them have the playback and browning issue, but i would still do a routine check on some of those LB42, L021 each year just to be sure.

[joie]

I am curious as to whether anyone will come up with a definitive test for a bad disc. Among blu-ray players, errors may be handled differently, then throw PCs with a BD drive into the mix and there are more possible ways in which an error could be handled. For example, a data error could be (mis)handled by freezing or skipping ahead until some data is read without error, or even by giving the erroneous data to the display. These different ways of handling an error could account for findings like, "Your brand X player is defective. The disc doesn't freeze on brand Y." Of course, you may not notice a row of messed-up pixels on brand Y, which blithely passes erroneous data to the display.

The question may be: is there a blu-ray association specification about how a compliant player is required to handle errors?

edit: I am guessing, "no," because freezing, without any sort of error message for the viewer, is very rude behavior.

re-edit: A scanner that read the whole disc and reported totals for correctable and uncorrectable errors might work. Any uncorrectable errors would be an absolutely bad disc; correctable errors wouldn't be bad if whatever player is eventually used can detect them and correct them. I'm assuming that there is some sort of error detection/correction code embedded in the disc's data.

[Dan8700]

Originally Posted by d514

L32* once again points to "Sony DADC US (DIDX)" - but mastering, NOT pressing! As said before, LB is not on the list, only L8.


10** points to Sonopress USA.


Most of these look like mastering codes or are not on the list.


QW** is not on the list. Maybe it's QM**?
10** once again points to Sonopress.
QM** could be crimson-ceremony.net USA.

It's possible it is OW. Anyway, that indicates the new facility.
Codes featuring LB41-LB50 definitely exist and are listed here, and again points to Sonopress. So, there is a sure fact: from 2009 to late 2010, CC used to have their disc mastered and pressed by Sonopress/Arvato Digital. And they did a bloody poor job. Then fortunately they switched to the Sony facility, where the discs continue to be mastered today.

Originally Posted by Joe Dalek

I'm pretty sure I fast-forwarded through my first Paris, Texas disc to get past the section with the error. Point being that fast-forwarding is not necessarily going to reveal a freezing problem. You have to play it.
My second Paris, Texas disc plays fine, so I don't know what to think since they were probably pressed at the same time.

It's likely that the second disc has been mastered at a different plant (see above). To make sure of it, you just have to check the IFPI codes: if they begin with L32, it's a second pressing.

[Brian81]

Originally Posted by joie

I am curious as to whether anyone will come up with a definitive test for a bad disc. Among blu-ray players, errors may be handled differently, then throw PCs with a BD drive into the mix and there are more possible ways in which an error could be handled. For example, a data error could be (mis)handled by freezing or skipping ahead until some data is read without error, or even by giving the erroneous data to the display. These different ways of handling an error could account for findings like, "Your brand X player is defective. The disc doesn't freeze on brand Y." Of course, you may not notice a row of messed-up pixels on brand Y, which blithely passes erroneous data to the display.

The question may be: is there a blu-ray association specification about how a compliant player is required to handle errors?

Yes, different players are better/worse at error correction, but you also have to consider that this is likely a chemical process that gets worse with time, but not at a consistent rate of degradation. One disc might exhibit problems in a few years, others might take much longer.

[Brian81]

Originally Posted by Dan8700

So, there is a sure fact: from 2009 to late 2010, CC used to have their disc mastered and pressed by Sonopress/Arvato Digital. And they did a bloody poor job. Then fortunately they switched to the Sony facility, where the discs continue to be mastered today.

Could they have switched from Sony to Sonopress (?) and back to Sony? Or maybe they used Sonopress (?) to supplement production? I ask because I listed the numbers from my Criterion titles that were released prior to the range some of us are finding failures in. Most of these early titles came in cardboard digipak packaging that they ditched for plastic cases not long after. These discs were all L3**/QW** for me except for 'Last Year at Marienbad', which was a digipak release that came a bit later than the rest, after they'd already switched to plastic cases and released a few titles that way.

[Dr. Humbert]

My 'M' Blu-ray has been pressed by Sony and plays fine.

Number BVDL... All dics that start with BVDL should be fine.