4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[hajiketobu]

yeah i'd prefer HFR movies anyway so hdmi 1.4 is dead to me. too bad that they didn't add 100/120Hz to the specifications of hdmi 2.0 nor 4k blu-ray, but maybe this will be implemented later, at least for hdmi, aka hdmi 2.4

idk why those people who make these specifications always work so short sighted and kinda ignorant. i mean they didn't even add 1080/25/30p to they blu-ray specifications which was very dump especially for european releases that had to jump to 1080/50i although they were progressive and of course no 1080/50/60p, which makes HFR in 1080p impossible for blu-ray. extremely short-sighted and pick and choosy imo.
Why do they make the same mistake again with 4k Blu-Ray? Why don't they enable all different framerates, also the queer ones like 48,72 and 96, up to 100/120fps instead of limiting them? This means problems are implemented. Isn't James Cameron considering filming Avatar 2 maybe at something above 60fps? And isn't a director called "Douglas Trumbull" already planning a 120fps movie?

Isn't this like really conservative of the "people" behind those specifications? I mean I understand that not all people like HFR, but that doesn't mean the doors should be locked.

[Cbeck]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

A new 4K Blu-ray player will replace your current Blu-ray player. Adding more 4K discs will be no different than adding more regular Blu-ray discs. I don't see why anything would change just because you are switching to 4K.

It just sounds like you are saying you would rather get things digitally, 4K is irrelevant.

Wrong. As I said earlier, I don't collect formats, I collect movies. If 4K bluray has titles I want to own, I will invest. If those titles( mostly catalog, I am not overly interested in the majority of new movies) are digital only that makes no difference to me, as long as buying it means I keep it.
4K is not irrelevant to me, I can see the difference on even smaller screens. I just have my doubts about the future of 4k Bluray and how successful another disc format could actually be, which will determine how much material is released on disc.
I would enjoy movies in 4k. How I get them is pretty much irrelevant to me.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Cbeck

Wrong. As I said earlier, I don't collect formats, I collect movies. If 4K bluray has titles I want to own, I will invest. If those titles( mostly catalog, I am not overly interested in the majority of new movies) are digital only that makes no difference to me, as long as buying it means I keep it.
4K is not irrelevant to me, I can see the difference on even smaller screens. I just have my doubts about the future of 4k Bluray and how successful another disc format could actually be, which will determine how much material is released on disc.
I would enjoy movies in 4k. How I get them is pretty much irrelevant to me.

So you are more confident about the future of Digital HD? I see that as a bigger risk. All the different services are like spaghetti junction with some services UV compatible some not etc.. Plus, we have seen how subscription services have become the dominant force in music, it would always be in the back of my mind that the same could happen with video if digital does become the only market way down the line. I can see those movies remaining unwatched as people just stream what they want for a set fee (or get films for free with adverts)

[Cbeck]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

So you are more confident about the future of Digital HD? I see that as a bigger risk. All the different services are like spaghetti junction with some services UV compatible some not etc.. Plus, we have seen how subscription services have become the dominant force in music, it would always be in the back of my mind that the same could happen with video if digital does become the only market way down the line. I can see those movies remaining unwatched as people just stream what they want for a set fee (or get films for free with adverts)

I would guess it will be more likely for 4K to succeed as a download service you have access to when you buy a new tv. I think the majority would do that over buying more players and discs. It sounds more convenient to me also. But of course everything you said is legitimate. Another problem with digital is if movies are taken off a service they disappear entirely from the marketplace. We will see how it plays out.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Cbeck

I would guess it will be more likely for 4K to succeed as a download service you have access to when you buy a new tv. I think the majority would do that over buying more players and discs. It sounds more convenient to me also. But of course everything you said is legitimate. Another problem with digital is if movies are taken off a service they disappear entirely from the marketplace. We will see how it plays out.

Poor man's 4k in other words.

[KRW1]

Originally Posted by GenPion

Wait, your actually hoping it will be expensive and not as many people will be buying it?

I hope it becomes a big success so prices go down and we can get more 4K Blu-ray releases and better deals on them.

However, I am worried it will more likely be just a 'niche within a niche' and exist around the lines of what you are suggesting. I know I will want 4K Blu-ray's but let's actually hope it picks up with wide consumer adoption. At least from the same market of people who currently buy Blu-ray releases.

No, I'm being realistic, I think, in a world where limited editions of things like Sleepless in Seattle and Crimes and Misdemeanours cost $30 as it is because no-one else will release them. I'd rather that than no-one release them at all.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by Cbeck

Wrong. As I said earlier, I don't collect formats, I collect movies. If 4K bluray has titles I want to own, I will invest. If those titles( mostly catalog, I am not overly interested in the majority of new movies) are digital only that makes no difference to me, as long as buying it means I keep it.
4K is not irrelevant to me, I can see the difference on even smaller screens. I just have my doubts about the future of 4k Bluray and how successful another disc format could actually be, which will determine how much material is released on disc.
I would enjoy movies in 4k. How I get them is pretty much irrelevant to me.

That's not what I meant by 4K being irrelevant. You said you'd prefer 4K downloads to 4K discs. I assume you'd also prefer 1080p downloads to 1080p discs (as long as they're actually similar quality). Therefore 4K isn't the important part of the equation.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bailey1987

But the problem there is that all you are getting is more pixels. HDMI 1.4 can only handle 8 bit colour and Rec. 709 colour space. I don't think it can do 3D at all at 4K. Even HDMI 2.0 has similar problems, there definitely needs to be a new iteration of HDMI in time for the new formats release.

That's not quite true about the bit depth. As long as the manufacturers have done the firmware fiddle (e.g. Sony) to 1.4 hardware to enable certain features of the HDMI 2.0 spec up to the 10.2 Gb/s limitation, then something like 10-bit 4:2:0 2160p24 should be fine. And if this 2.0 "lite" tech can handle 2160p60 @ 8-bit 4:2:0 as has been claimed, then it stands to reason that there's enough bandwidth to deliver a 2160p24 3D image with the same bit depth and subsampling (although it may prove difficult to retrofit 4K 3D to legacy equipment so all current 4K TV owners shouldn't get their hopes up).

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That's not quite true about the bit depth. As long as the manufacturers have done the firmware fiddle (e.g. Sony) to 1.4 hardware to enable certain features of the HDMI 2.0 spec up to the 10.2 Gb/s limitation, then something like 10-bit 4:2:0 2160p24 should be fine. And if this 2.0 "lite" tech can handle 2160p60 @ 8-bit 4:2:0 as has been claimed, then it stands to reason that there's enough bandwidth to deliver a 2160p24 3D image with the same bit depth and subsampling (although it may prove difficult to retrofit 4K 3D to legacy equipment so all current 4K TV owners shouldn't get their hopes up).

It just makes more sense to wait until 4K players are released before buying a 4K TV, that way you can make sure the two are completely compatible.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...skip to the 3 min. mark regarding the *special feature* of the Sony 4K OLED professional monitor…

NAB 2014: Sony PVM-A250 & New 4K OLED Monitor - YouTube

A *special feature* not mentioned ^ at the past NAB2014, but indeed mentioned at a very recent SMPTE event, and now here on Blu-ray.com, is that in addition to supporting BT.2020 color gamut (which, based on orthogonal linear basis vectors is roughly 1.5:1 greater in size than P3)….

This new 30” 4K OLED flagship professional monitor has been engineered to pump out highlights to over 1000 nits (in the high luminance mode, when selected, as opposed to the traditional 100 nit mastering mode) so, in a nutshell, it has the capability for use in HDR mastering.

I mention HDR, because today at the panel, a well known cinematographer called for the Hollywood community to produce sorta StEM material for HDR.

P.S.
Cliff Notes on StEM –

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I received a few PM’s from inquiring minds asking me to elaborate on the StEM material I spoke about a few pages back.

In that regard, the StEM (movie short) was a collaborative effort between American Society of Cinematographers and DCI. More than two hours of film were captured in 35mm (and to be completely accurate, a small amount in 65 mm also) by a world-class team of ASC cinematographers. The footage featured a bunch of scenes with a variety of lighting conditions, colors, textures and other variables of photographic definition including rain, confetti, fog, smoke, etc. The footage accumulated was intentionally made to stress the system (i.e. theatrical presentation of the imagery). It was edited down to a mini-movie consisting mostly of 35mm original source and a little bit of 65mm. Eastman negative 5218 (think Van Helsing) was the primary stock and 5245 was used for the shot tilting down from the sky.

The location was Uni’s “European Village" backlot with a wedding scene (b.t.w., the groom in a tuxedo and the bride in a wedding gown is a great way to test blacks and whites) set-up similar to the one in The Godfather. The StEM material also includes some 4k CGI from Disney’s Treasure Planet.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

1000 nits

For those not having a handle on ‘nits’, for comparative purposes, as I spoke about last December, Dolby’s PRM monitor does 600 nits in their DYN mode…

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

The great value of HDR for imagery comes as no surprise to colorists who have worked with Dolby’s LCD reference color grading monitor, the PRM 4200 or 4220, which some post houses use in their mastering and whose colorists have ever experimented with Dolby’s HDR ACES output display transform to allow movie content to be viewed in HDR and P3 color space while in the DYN operational mode (maximum luminance of 600 nits).

Then, afterwards, when flipping back to traditional non-HDR mode, it’s amazing how much RAW imagery (be it from the Alexa, RED, Sony--whatever high end camera be your acquisition device) is clipped at 100 nits.

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

A *special feature* not mentioned ^ at the past NAB2014, but indeed mentioned at a very recent SMPTE event, and now here on Blu-ray.com, is that in addition to supporting BT.2020 color gamut (which, based on orthogonal linear basis vectors is roughly 1.5:1 greater in size than P3)….

This new 30” 4K OLED flagship professional monitor has been engineered to pump out highlights to over 1000 nits (in the high luminance mode, when selected, as opposed to the traditional 100 nit mastering mode) so, in a nutshell, it has the capability for use in HDR mastering.

I mention HDR, because today at the panel, a well known cinematographer called for the Hollywood community to produce sorta StEM material for HDR.

P.S.
Cliff Notes on StEM –

Thanks for the cliff notes! Those scenes would be ideal to stress a compression codec.

[Canada]

I saw 2 2160p UHDTV's didn't spend much time looking at each TV but I much preferred the look of the Sony just because the Samsung was curved. Reading articles some people who review TV's believe that curves don't really work and add something 70'-80'. They believe there can be a case made for curved screens but that's at about 10 ft or larger.

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by Canada

I saw 2 2160p UHDTV's didn't spend much time looking at each TV but I much preferred the look of the Sony just because the Samsung was curved. Reading articles some people who review TV's believe that curves don't really work and add something 70'-80'. They believe there can be a case made for curved screens but that's at about 10 ft or larger.

Did we not get rid of convex screens with CRT, even CRT got rid of the curves in the late 90's. All these curved TV's are just a way of saying "look don't touch, certainly don't buy". It is my opinion that the curves are to slow sales until all specifications are concrete and the 4K format is here.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

It just makes more sense to wait until 4K players are released before buying a 4K TV, that way you can make sure the two are completely compatible.

Too late!

[Canada]

On a perforated screen test audiences could tell the difference between 11 bits and 12 bits to get out to DCI colour. The spec they want to use for 4K is the rec 2020 spec now look at how much space we went up with just four bits, Joe Kane was saying to get out to rec 2020 it will require at least a minimum of 16 bits imagine how much space that will take.

The stuff I am talking about starts around minute 45

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZqhA3iIHm4

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Canada

On a perforated screen test audiences could tell the difference between 11 bits and 12 bits to get out to DCI colour. The spec they want to use for 4K is the rec 2020 spec now look at how much space we went up with just four bits, Joe Kane was saying to get out to rec 2020 it will require at least a minimum of 16 bits imagine how much space that will take.

Joe Kane is wrong about the relationship between bit depth and color space. The Rec. 2020 color space is about twice the size of the Rec. 709 color space but 12-bit video has 16 times the color precision of 8-bit video. While 12-bit video would be nice it would mainly be useful for HDR. Also while the DCI standard uses 12-bit video that is needed because the DCI P3 video is stored in the XYZ color space (which is larger than the spectrum of colors visible to humans).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Joe Kane is wrong about the relationship between bit depth and color space....

Thank you , I don’t have the time or patience tonight for rebuttal to someone who obviously didn’t *get it* after this post - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ked#post990251, nor the one above it.

[Penton-Man]

Short Note:
There was a good way to start off the day (earlier this morning) for 4K Blu-ray at the SMPTE 2014 Tech Conference and Exhibition in Hollywood, at least if only to increase its awareness among the attendees, as the Opening Keynote speaker (a Director at Netflix, no less) made a very quick shout out to…“next generation Blu-ray” ….even if it were only with regards to heavily recommending IMF - something which we here at Blu-ray.com briefly discussed a couple months ago around Emmy award show time.

P.S. The evening buffet was excellent!

[Canada]

CEA refines UHD 2160p