BD Managed Copy Launches in 2010, New Player Required

[Hep]

I'm not sure what the issue is.

If you don’t like/want the feature, then don't buy a new player and carry on as if it doesn't exist.

If you do like/want the feature, then it is now an option, just need to upgrade your equipment.

Seems like a harmless feature to me. Use it, don't use it...noodles, don't noodles...

[WriteSimply]

I'll start with this post.

Originally Posted by mredman

Are they f ucking joking. Who the hell have they asked about this feature because i have not seen any on this forum that supports this massive stupid idea. Whre the hell have they found those consumers that want this.

Ah... Newbies.

Managed Copy was in discussion WAY before HD-DVD even launched. Obviously the discussion wasn't here (in another not-so transparent forum) but it was heated and it was exciting. So seriously, it's been discussed and anticipated long before BD won the HD war.

Besides it is much easier to buy an "original" copy at the store if one of the Blu's get scratched and everybody also rather want an "original" Blu Ray then a copy. This is just insane

Sure it is easy to buy an original copy. But for how much? If you scratched/lost one disc of Friends Season 1 on BD, are you going to buy the entire set again just to have that one disc? It's easy to buy two copies of a single-disc release but for boxed sets, it's an expensive proposition.

Managed Copy was conceived so that you can make legal and playable copy either on disc, HDD or lower res portable player. However, it doesn't insist that you get an MC player or stop you from buying another original copy. It is STILL an option for the consumer.

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Originally Posted by bhampton

Why don't they believe in Blu Ray as it is?!?!?

They do and MC is part of the original specs to begin with. So technically, they believe in BD so much that they are bringing everything they proposed earlier from the labs to consumers' homes.

If they keep changing it ... people will never take interest in it.

If you look at BD adoption rates, you know that this is not true. Players are getting cheaper and sales are strong.

Like I said above, MC has been tabled very early on. In fact, BD3D/3DHD is the newest addition. Before that, it was BD-Audio. BD3D would require more hardware upgrade than MC. BD3D with MC well that would be the creme de la creme.

Whoever is in charge is a maroon. If you want it to replace DVD then you have to decide at some point the format is finalized.

Funny you should say that. DVD wasn't finalized when it gained momentum. They were working on DVD-R/RW and DVD+R/RW as well as DVD-Audio.

Moron, you mean.

I hate this plan. Lets see if we can make everyone buy new Blu Ray players again.

If you don't want MC, you don't have to buy a new player. Just like if you don't need BD-Live.

For anyone who "needs" a backup of a Blu Ray ... there's always the option of buying 2 copies.

See above.

The only thing we don't know is the pricing structure of the copies. I'm sure it won't be as much as the original. The lower res version will probably be in line with what iTunes or Amazon offers.

Blu Ray is the best but ... I'm thinking it's too complicated for it's own good. I hate the digital copies that come with Blus. It's like in case Blu Ray fails here's this super compressed itunes version as a consolation prize.

PCs are a lot more complicated. Seriously. But don't mix up options with complexity.

In this regard, all of the options that are given to us is what can sustain the consumer electronics industry in supporting BD. Different models have different options and different price tags. So consumers are going to be attracted to the feature set they want and the price range they can afford.

Forgive me but this managed copy thing really bothers me.

Remember VHS.? DVD was too complicated for many people and lots of people have no idea to this day what aspect ratio is. Now a Blu Ray will soon require a training course.

Same thing with VHS and same thing with DVD. We are not born with chip implants that let us download operating procedures of the tools we need in life. If you want to use it, learn.

I hope these tweaks don't kill the format... because I like Blu Ray. I have no use for digital copy, managed copy, BD live, Bonus view or video games packaged with movies. Just movies please in High Quality.

The point is you are given options. It's better to be given options than to wonder what the world could be if the options were made.

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Originally Posted by Sciatti

The article makes it sound like you'll need a new player only if you want the ability to make copies

Correct.

and your current BD player will still be able to play the movie. Am I wrong?

Correct as well.

Last I heard, blank BD-Rs have built in AACS feature. So if you make a copy, you can't copy the copy.
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Originally Posted by BluLobsta

Nah, a new player will only be required for Managed Copy features. This seems kinda ridiculous, though. Why not just update the firmware on existing players for those who want the feature?? Stoopid Another money-making venture from the people with all the money They're raking in huge cash over Blu and they can see a gold mine....

Gary answered this. We also don't know much about MC and what kind of requirement must be in players/HTPCs.

But like Gary said, I think existing players do not have the muscle to re-encode the feature into a portable media via USB. Nor do existing players have HDD or BD burner built-in (except for them Japanese BD-burner players).
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Originally Posted by bhampton

Hello again,

I have a lot to do today but can't let this news bother me all day so,.. I'll make my final case against this new development and just be done with it.
...
But wait... the anti-scratch coating isn't good enough.. I need several copies to ensure my movie is "safe"! Ok... here's a new thingie that will let you backup your Blu Ray onto... a DVD or a thumb drive. Dial up our database and see if you meet all the security checks and maybe will will give you yet another itunes version so you can sleep with the knowledge that you have several copies of your whole library or at least the titles that have this feature.

MC gives you the option of 1080p, 480p or portable media. Again, the O word.

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Originally Posted by Blu Titan

I have very little interested in "managed copy". Fist, it appears that they will make you pay for the copy.

Well during the 2002-4 discussion/HD War days, there were talks that the studios will let you copy the first one for free. That option is up to the studios, not the consumer electronics industry though I think the CEs would like that the studios adopt that option.

What this could mean is that for rental copies, the free first-copy MC would be disabled. You could pay for a copy you rent from Blockbuster.

Second, you will need a new BD to watch the managed copy. Think I will pass.

If it's on disc, you won't. Copying to HDDs may mean two things :
1) the content is playable through that player only (if the HDD is portable) or 2) the content is playable through any HDD-based BD-MC player but you can't copy the content to the resident HDD.

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Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Here's the problem with this feature... It's really logically good for making back up copies on a recordable Blu-Ray disc (assuming you can get the full thing on a recordable disc. Do they even make 50GB recordables?

Price starts at US$18 a piece.

A 25 GB recordable isn't going to work for a movie on a 50GB disc).

Tell that to people who don't mind it. Seriously, pirates here have resorted to re-compressing ripped BDs to fit BD25 since BD25 is the cheaper media.

BD movies take up so much space that for anyone that buys a lot of movies and has a large collection, even some the biggest hard drives available now would fill up fairly quickly. And while HD sizes will get even bigger in time, odds are there will be some kind of terrible DRM that won't allow anything you put on a current hard drive to a newer one. And since this thing only allows you to make the copy once, good luck getting it to work again if your original HD crashes or becomes obselete.

Well there is a chance of that. But hopefully the studios - the ones who are in control of the content - will have level heads and make MC flexible for the future home media centers.

And according the info on the main page of this site, as of now, things like Ipods aren't going to be supported. And even if they were, since these are full quality back ups, they would only work on the Ipods with larger memory and just a movie or two would take up a SIGNIFICANT amount of that memory.

You have the option to downconvert for iPod/portable media resolution. Apple has STILL not support NATIVE BD playback or burning, so they are clearly still thinking that BD is not going to take off (or that they are betting AppleTV's HD offering is superior to BD).

Which just brings things back to blank BDs being the only logical, viable way of storing a large quantity of these back ups.

Indeed.

But if that's going to be the case, then wouldn't it just be easier to simply include 2 copies of the same movie in the one case to begin with?

See above.

Disc replication is fairly cheap for the studios. Simply printing up an extra disc doesn't add much to the overall cost (it certainly can't be any worse than the money going into all the technology needed to make these back ups work). And if for some reason they felt the need to add to the cost for the extra disc, then they could simply release a standard edition with 1 copy of the movie, and some kind of "Double Copy Special Edition" or something like that.

Disc replication IS cheap. But why would they want to give you TWO copies when you only paid for one?

Double Copy Special Edition, huh? Well...

And sooner or later there will be programs that get past copy protection and allow people to make back ups of their BDs however they want, just like what can be done with DVDs now. So, people won't even have to go through this obnoxious authentication process just to make a simple back up.

Do you think the police torture you when they ask you for your driver's license? Or that you own the car you are driving? The MC authentication system is to make sure that you pay for your copy, or that the HDD copy resides in your BD-MC player. Once you paid for your copy, it's done. Once the code in your HDD copy is written on the HDD, it's done.

If the studios want to help people with having a back up copy, then just include a second copy in the case to start with.

Again, the BDA is giving you an option.

Say a regular title is US$20 (after discount). The Double Copy Special Edition will sell for US$35. If you can find a friend who has the EXACT taste in movies as you do, you can buy the DCED version all the time. But seriously how many people have friends like that? And who get to keep the case and in-lay?

The way they are doing this, with needing to get a new type of player to get this to work, and to go through the studios' obnoxious authentication process to make this thing work just the one time, it's like they are going all of the way around the earth just to get across the street. It's ridiculous.

Obviously you need a new type of player to make copies. Most Silicon-on-Chip (SoC) players out there have MPEG-2/AVC/VC-1 DECODERS. They don't have encoders nor do they have enough RAM or HDD to facilitate the copy. Even if they are Profile 1.1/2.0 players, they don't fulfill the hardware requirement.

Now here's some old news that is interesting. I remember Ken Kutaragi (whodat?) saying that the Cell has enough power to re-encode video back in the day...

That being said, as long as this feature being added to the BDs doesn't prevent the BDs themselves from playing on existing players, that's fine. But if this is going to cause more issues with existing players and end up becoming a firmware/glitchy playback nightmare, then I'm really going to have something to complain about.

Seriously? You haven't look at all those people who are complaining about glitches in the current gen players, have you?

It is a funny joke, but I would actually expect the opposite from Toshiba. HD-DVD had it's disadvantages and Blu-Ray is superior in many ways, but the one piece of Kudos I can give to the HD-DVD camp is that their format was at least more finalized than Blu-Ray (it still had it's share of problems, but not quite on the same level since it didn't need to be upgraded as much as Blu-Ray did).

Seriously? You see this as a plus? Two layers at 15GB per layer? Bandwidth cap of 30 Mbps for AUDIO and VIDEO?

Let me also remind you that HD-DVD has the same feature that BD has - AACS. AACS is the source of this thread because through it MC can be done.

I understand that Blu-Ray wasn't finalized in part because they had to get on the market as soon as possible to compete with HD-DVD, so there was some excuse there. But now this is the Blu-Ray camp prolonging these problems for no real good reason at this point.

See above for my comment about DVD.

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Originally Posted by androvsky

Actually, managed copy was a major bullet point in favor of HD-DVD for many PC makers, and getting their support is the reason why blu-ray ended up having to promise it.

Btw, why can't a firmware update let a current PS3 use this feature? Is it because the unique serial is in an area of the disc currently unreadable by existing drives?

We don't know. And I'm not a studio/CE insider.

While the PS3s and HTPCs are the more flexible of the bunch, there may be additional hardware that is needed to fulfill MC requirements.
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Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

But I could see the PS3 being one of the few, maybe even the only exception to this rule. I could see it requiring a significant amount of hard drive space (so those people with smaller HD sized PS3s may have to upgrade), but I could see PS3 potentially supporting it.

See my Kutaragi comment.

Of course, it all depends on how this works. For instance, if I want to back this up to a blank BD disc, then I'm going to need something that can burn BDs. Does this mean I'll have to use a computer to do this? Or will the players enabled with this feature the ability to record the discs? If that's the case, then I can see where the PS3 would have an issue, at least for the specific purpose of burning a disc.

Indeed. Unless SCE releases an MC-compatible firmware and/or a USB-based BD-burner, PS3 is one of those players affected.

I suspect that if the PS3 can do it, either the MC copy can only reside in the internal HDD or that the copy can be played everywhere but just can't be copied again.
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Originally Posted by androvsky

The way I'd want to use it is so my PSP can finally get digital copy support from more than just Sony titles. Even though the managed copy can be full resolution, it doesn't have to be. If you don't mind using your one copy on a low-res version for a portable player, that's fine. I see this as finally doing away with the incredibly stupid platform-specific digital copies that currently require multiple copies of the movie on another disc; I'm sure Apple does too since they haven't submitted any iPod products to be certified.

Again, see my Kutaragi comment. Also, the studios can enable digital copy easily with the PS3, if they choose to support it. The PS3 just read the DC data and with the right authentication mode, copies it to your portable player.

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Originally Posted by Another_Dude

Maybe I'm not understand how this all works (which puts me in the vast majority of consumers) but this just sounds stupid.

Very rarely does new technology come out where EVERYBODY understand how it works. It's all MAGIC to them.

I want the movie, and maybe some extras, but the movie is what I'm buying. If I had the choice I would never pay for slipcovers, digital copies, BD live, or any of this other crap (to me).

Again, choice is what is given to you.

Now we have a this headline that makes Joe Sixpack think he should NOT buy a player in 2009 and maybe 2010 because they won't have some certain feature he might need to watch a movie?

And that's why you're here to understand BD tech, right? Or did you first come here to comment about how your BD looked great and everything's fine in your setup?

Learn, then teach.

Studios, I beg you, stop spending time and money on this junk and put 100% of your resources towards bringing titles to the market that the public wants. This will sell hardware and software....your current strategy does the opposite.

Seriously, spending money on MC is a lot less investment that doing restoration work for ONE film. Granted I DO want studios to restore all of their catalog films, but this is one revenue stream that they can't ignore.

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Originally Posted by blujacket

It will be quite obvious why Blu-ray will go the way of the Laser disc if the BDA doesn't focus on the mass adoption instead of crap like this.

See above about player and title sales.

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Originally Posted by dadkins

What I meant was, it is already possible to copy Blu-ray Discs - so they say.

Not legal but possible.

Yes, the copies will take up substantial space on a HDD.
But, as external drive prices keep dropping, and networking devices evolve, the problems are starting to disappear.

Indeed. This is what studios are banking on - the transition to home media servers for those who want it.

HTPCs are really neat items!

As I said above, HTPCs are far more complicated than BD-MC players...
----

Originally Posted by mredman

This is the most stupid idea ever
If one of our Blu's get scratched or even lost we just buy the "Original" blu ray movie at the stores again that was damaged or lost.

See above. If you lost your Akira, do you want to spend another US$30?

Would rather have the real deal then a freakin copy. I mean WTF is this crap who the hell thought up this braindead idea. Who the hell needs a copy of the discs when they are not even broke. And if they break you just buy them again at the local store its not like the Blu's will be limited for sale. Damn this is F U C K E D UP

Really? I thought the animated Disney BDs have a seven-year moratorium cycle? And what about out-of-print discs? I wish I have the resources to spend money on two copies of a title I want just so that I can have a peace of mind. But I don't since S H I T happens.

Whew, that's a long post! Later!


fuad

[bhampton]

faud,

I meant to spell maroon that way.

Saying someone is a maroon is nicer ... less mean in some way... cutes it up just a tad.

-Brian

[ObiTrentKenobi]

BD-Live? PooPoo
Profile 2? PooPoo
Digital Copies? PooPoo
Managed Copies? PooPoo

Just give me the movie in HIGH DEFINITION!!!

Maybe then prices on movies can come down just a little more if they quit trying to add sooooo much crap to the packaging!

[Anthony P]

Nah, a new player will only be required for Managed Copy features. This seems kinda ridiculous, though. Why not just update the firmware on existing players for those who want the feature?? Stoopid Another money-making venture from the people with all the money They're raking in huge cash over Blu and they can see a gold mine....

maybe some players will be upgradeable, but think of it, MC is all about making a copy. Assuming you have a stand alone player, you put the BD in the player, where do you make the copy? How do you FW a player without an HDD to it's HDD?

[BluLobsta]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

maybe some players will be upgradeable, but think of it, MC is all about making a copy. Assuming you have a stand alone player, you put the BD in the player, where do you make the copy? How do you FW a player without an HDD to it's HDD?

Yeah, I was thinking of how the player would function, not a player/burner lol I just think a new piece of hardware solely for the purpose of making a backup copy of a Blu is kind of counter-intuitive but that's me...I mean it sounds like the new players will have more in common with my PC than with my other pieces of HT equipment. Just let me make an archive copy of my Blu on my computer under DMCA Fair Use and I'll be fine....

[Joe Cain]

Don't like it? Don't use it---same for BD-Live, BonusView, supplemental features, et al. Managed Copy has been in the BD spec for a long time, promised to consumers, all but abandoned (except for in-spirit compliance in the way of bonus DVDs and/or digital copies), and against all odds it's materializing after all---as a premium, yes, but no one ever claimed it would be a free perquisite. I say kudos to the BDA for the unexpected added-value follow-through.

[Anthony P]

I just think a new piece of hardware solely for the purpose of making a backup copy of a Blu is kind of counter-intuitive but that's me...I mean it sounds like the new players will have more in common with my PC than with my other pieces of HT equipment. Just let me make an archive copy of my Blu on my computer under DMCA Fair Use and I'll be fine....

MC is not something asked by studios or CEs, MC is from the IT side. I am sure some will make media servers that look like stand alones, but the whole reason for it is to make copies to HDDs. Be it for archiving like you say or for people that want an HTPC and don't want the inconvenience of slipping the disk in the player. Like DC now it is absolutely useless if all you want to do is put disk in player and watch movie. That is what I find funny of all the "I am POed I will need to buy a new BD player" if you want an HDD movie server then you might need something more (unless you use an HTPC) and you get what you want but if you don't care your player is just as good as it ever was.

[Jeff Kleist]

Really? I thought the animated Disney BDs have a seven-year moratorium cycle? And what about out-of-print discs? I wish I have the resources to spend money on two copies of a title I want just so that I can have a peace of mind. But I don't since S H I T happens.

If you register your disc with Disney, you can get a replacement regardless of whether it's on moratorium for a fee, I think it's under $10

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

If you register your disc with Disney, you can get a replacement regardless of whether it's on moratorium for a fee, I think it's under $10

But I don't think that applies if it's an international user. :P

My copy of The Hitchiker's Guide To The Galaxy can't play on any player. Can I get a replacement?


fuad

[syncguy]

I am not sure how the original and the backup would be managed. Could these two disks be legally played simultaneously in two places. Say, in two rooms in the same home. Can you lend a disk to your relative or friend - they might forget to return the disk and the owner might forget to remind them.

How could it managed if the owner sells the original and keep the copy? Can this be policed?

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by syncguy

I am not sure how the original and the backup would be managed. Could these two disks be legally played simultaneously in two places. Say, in two rooms in the same home. Can you lend a disk to your relative or friend - they might forget to return the disk and the owner might forget to remind them.

I believe your copy can play on any BD player. If you are habitually forgetful about who have your copy, then you might also forget that when you made the copy you paid for it.

I believe stores in the US only accepts returns of unopened DVDs and BDs, yes?

How could it managed if the owner sells the original and keep the copy? Can this be policed?

It can't be policed and it shouldn't.

The incentive is that the owner can make a copy for the car (Panasonic already have a car BD player) or for traveling (Panasonic also has a portable player not to mention laptops with BD-ROMs) without exposing the original to risks.

Even if you and a friend buys one title and you make one copy for him thus splitting the cost of the title+copy, the studios still make money while keeping you happy. Instead of losing money to piracy, the incremental revenue is still revenue not lost to the studios. This way, consumers, studios, disc replicators and CEs get what they want.


fuad

[androvsky]

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

Now here's some old news that is interesting. I remember Ken Kutaragi (whodat?) saying that the Cell has enough power to re-encode video back in the day..

Yes, I know the Cell can re-encode video. The Cell can probably decode 1080p video, resize it, and encode it with an efficient codec like h.264 faster than the PS3's blu-ray drive can get the video off a blu-ray disc. I figured that much was obvious, hence my curiosity as to why all the news stories completely ignored the PS3 when they said we'll probably have to buy a new player. Usually when a new blu-ray feature was announced, Sony would be quick to make sure people knew the PS3 could handle whatever it was with a simple firmware update. Which is way I was asking if it required a new drive.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by androvsky

I figured that much was obvious, hence my curiosity as to why all the news stories completely ignored the PS3 when they said we'll probably have to buy a new player.

because MC is more then just a player. In order to do MC it needs to make a copy to an other secure system and be secure during the process. The whole thing needs to be AACS approved. Until a player/system gets certified they can't say it will be MC compliant even if in theory it can.

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

It can't be policed and it shouldn't.

The incentive is that the owner can make a copy for the car (Panasonic already have a car BD player) or for traveling (Panasonic also has a portable player not to mention laptops with BD-ROMs) without exposing the original to risks.

Even if you and a friend buys one title and you make one copy for him thus splitting the cost of the title+copy, the studios still make money while keeping you happy. Instead of losing money to piracy, the incremental revenue is still revenue not lost to the studios. This way, consumers, studios, disc replicators and CEs get what they want.

fuad

So, this is good for the consumer as MC has the potential to reduce BD prices. Everyone should be happy about this. It appears to be a win-win situation. What's the fuss about ...

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by syncguy

How could it managed if the owner sells the original and keep the copy? Can this be policed?

What is the value of the original if the one copy capability has been used up?

The DRM the full resolution copies are put under could require Internet connectivity to validate the license, in which case the copy could be dead the moment someone other than you tries to make another (possession of the disc is your license to continue to use or recover the copy).

The license rules of the copy could police the situation to the satisfaction of the studio.

I think the key is it takes the legs out, somewhat, from under those going around saying the reason they are forced to use illegal ripping software is because the ability is not offered to them legally.

Of course, I'm not so naive to realize that many will suddenly have a whole new set of reasons for why they hate the new system and must continue as they have been.

Gary

[Dr.Zoidberg]

So how much will these "managed copy" blu-ray players be costing?

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Dr.Zoidberg

So how much will these "managed copy" blu-ray players be costing?

The cost, I would expect, depends one what you're intending to target with the copy.

If you're writing to a portable device, it may become must have feature for any company with a portable device division (e.g. Sony, Panasonic, Samsung and LG for portable music/video players, laptops, and phones/PDAs). The incremental cost will probably be negligible, as they will hope it drives sales of their portable devices.

The main user, I would bet, will be media server companies which will simply download discs from the BD drive onto the media server. The cost of significant storage will be big for quite some time.

Gary

[owa]

Originally Posted by Joe Cain

Don't like it? Don't use it---same for BD-Live, BonusView, supplemental features, et al. Managed Copy has been in the BD spec for a long time, promised to consumers, all but abandoned (except for in-spirit compliance in the way of bonus DVDs and/or digital copies), and against all odds it's materializing after all---as a premium, yes, but no one ever claimed it would be a free perquisite. I say kudos to the BDA for the unexpected added-value follow-through.

Well said.

[Rojas]

Originally Posted by mredman

from article:
Ayers said he expects hardware manufacturers will add Managed Copy because it's something consumers have indicated they want. �We think that consumers really do want the ability to use their content flexibly,� he said.

Andy Parsons, U.S. chairman of the BDA Promotions Committee and senior VP of product planning at Pioneer Home Entertainment, agreed. �There's enough interest in the consumer community that there should be enough incentive in the hardware community to do this,� he said.


Are they f ucking joking. Who the hell have they asked about this feature because i have not seen any on this forum that supports this massive stupid idea. Whre the hell have they found those consumers that want this.

China bootleg city


Besides it is much easier to buy an "original" copy at the store if one of the Blu's get scratched and everybody also rather want an "original" Blu Ray then a copy. This is just insane

And cheaper too, no need to purchase an expensive burner and 50 GB blank media discs.