Is Blu-ray Sony's trump card for future exclusive games?

[Cidien]

Originally Posted by Proteus

Well, when it comes to the Cell Ascended usually has his ducks in a pretty tight row.

I'm pretty certain that GeoW3 will hit PS3, as I already stated, but there is always that .01% and that just happens to be the 'Gears is a trilogy' fact. Might be odd to break up the trilogy between systems. Then again, I don't remember much story at all in GeoW!

It's there it just kinda sets up the second game from what they're saying.

And ya, I have played MGS4. About 4 times now. For me it's 6 mins installs after the first one. SO sorry I generalized it by saying 10 min installs instead of specifying exactly how much each install time is. Seriously. What's wrong with you.

[Cidien]

Originally Posted by Terjyn

You are using the same argument HD DVD users did. "All releases on both are equal, therefore it's not possible for you to have a better version."

I'm not going to say Metal Gear Solid 4: Twin Snakes edition couldn't be done on 360. But the engine as is is said to use 8 threads, which is impossible on 360, so the engine would have to be tweaked, period.

I never said it wouldn't have to be tweaked. Again, I was being kinda general. Most people bring up the multi disc thing so that's what I used when I was talking about it.

[Blu-Generation]

Originally Posted by Cidien

What exactly can't the 360 handle?

RROD?

Just playin wit ya.

Originally Posted by Cidien

GeoW was the best looking game out there for a very long time, and geow2 looks like it's going to become the best looking game out there once again.

KZ2 looks better. In my opinion.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Originally Posted by Cidien

Pretty much. I just realized, why argue. I havn't argued on boards about anything like this in a long time. Dunno why I let people irritate me so much lately. You could show someone with documented evidence how you're 100% right on the internet and still not convince anyone of anything.

It kind of tough to have a debate with someone with you have to "limit" yourself to truth, aye?

Let's take a look at the only approach that could prove me wrong, shall we? You would have to prove that the X360 drive is faster (much faster) than the PS3's drive. You can't logically do that, because the PS3's drive is faster at transferring large amounts of data. The BD drive a faster over 60% of the dual layer DVDs the X360 would use for most games (vs. using a BD for the same amount of information). Therefore, your argument would fail. I think you realized this and made your back out statement...your...get out of jail free card.

Originally Posted by reiella

Erm. Not quite.

You can have more than a single thread running on a single processor at a time. It's really closer to virtualizing, but the PC had been doing that for quite some time until the recent outbreaks of multi-core for home PCs.

X360 can handle 2 threads per core (2 of the same instruction sets can not be run on the same core at the same time). Of course, 2 threads on 2 processors (1 thread per core) is faster than 2 threads on 1 processor.

[Terjyn]

You didn't mention the most important part of that, which is the 360 has 3 cores. 3x2 = 6 maximum threads.

6 < 8. Some how the threads would have to be combined, and if you've ever attempted to do it, that isn't easy, so it's generally easier to just re-write.

[reiella]

Originally Posted by Ascended_Saiyan

X360 can handle 2 threads per core (2 of the same instruction sets can not be run on the same core at the same time). Of course, 2 threads on 2 processors (1 thread per core) is faster than 2 threads on 1 processor.

I think you're misunderstanding what a threaded application actually means, and further what hyperthreading is.

If not, I apologize for suggesting so, but just realize that because an application has multiple threads doesn't mean all threads must run simultaneously. Further, the order of operation cannot be assured, hence why threadsafe programming is alot more of a headache than non-threadsafe programming. A single CPU is capable of having as many threads running on it as it's operating system permits.

Originally Posted by Terjyn

You didn't mention the most important part of that, which is the 360 has 3 cores. 3x2 = 6 maximum threads.

6 < 8. Some how the threads would have to be combined, and if you've ever attempted to do it, that isn't easy, so it's generally easier to just re-write.

Makes me wonder if you have done threaded programming myself to be honest . But neither here nor there [and again, that was really a low-blow and a logical falacy on my part, so my apologies]. Consider the reasons EA said they were using the PS3 for lead platform instead of the 360. Pretty much the exact opposite of your reasoning.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Originally Posted by reiella

I think you're misunderstanding what a threaded application actually means, and further what hyperthreading is.

If not, I apologize for suggesting so, but just realize that because an application has multiple threads doesn't mean all threads must run simultaneously. Further, the order of operation cannot be assured, hence why threadsafe programming is alot more of a headache than non-threadsafe programming. A single CPU is capable of having as many threads running on it as it's operating system permits.

No worries. This I understand. But, if you have 100% or near 100% processor usage (as I believe Kojima claimed at one point), all available processors are running something simultaneously. That would mean 7 processors (6 SPEs plus 1 PPE) are running at or near max (at near linear performance increases per additional SPE used). Knowing what we know about the SPE/SPU performance on certain tasks when compared to similiar clocked OOOe processors. That would make it impossible to be done in it's curent form on the X360 (only having 3 in-order cores and shared cache).

[Excalibur-king]

I saw the videos of Bioshock for PS3 and the devs talked about how the PS3 was much better because of Blu-ray i mean.

25/50GB >>>>>>>>> 4.5gb simple fact.

microsoft screw up big time with the dvd is making all games on ther system be really short, mass effect only 12 hours, gears of war 4 hours,ninja gaiden 2 5 hours ect. also those multiple disks games like lost oddeysey.

Sony made the perfect desicion with Blu-ray, Sony is just alot smarter then microsoft hehe.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Originally Posted by shaka

I saw the videos of Bioshock for PS3 and the devs talked about how the PS3 was much better because of Blu-ray i mean.

25/50GB >>>>>>>>> 4.5gb simple fact.

microsoft screw up big time with the dvd is making all games on ther system be really short, mass effect only 12 hours, gears of war 4 hours,ninja gaiden 2 5 hours ect. also those multiple disks games like lost oddeysey.

Sony made the perfect desicion with Blu-ray, Sony is just alot smarter then microsoft hehe.

Actually, most X360 games are on dual-layered DVDs. That means (with security software included) the X360 has about 7GB at it's disposal...not 4.5GB.

Let's just traffic in truths, if we can. Personally, I believe Sony just thinks a lot further ahead and accounts for more variables than MS.

[reiella]

Originally Posted by Ascended_Saiyan

No worries. This I understand. But, if you have 100% or near 100% processor usage (as I believe Kojima claimed at one point), all available processors are running something simultaneously. That would mean 7 processors (6 SPEs plus 1 PPE) are running at or near max (at near linear performance increases per additional SPE used). Knowing what we know about the SPE/SPU performance on certain tasks when compared to similiar clocked OOOe processors. That would make it impossible to be done in it's curent form on the X360 (only having 3 in-order cores and shared cache).

And I can 'agree' with that argument .

It does largely depend on the design approach and where the burst points are [and of course, your tolerance for reducing the minimum fps]. New techniques and tricks as consoles mature can result in more efficent utilization of processing power. I'm not in a position to know or say if it 'can' or cannot be done specifically on this title, but I have no reason to doubt the developers comments as to the viability of such a port.

[Terjyn]

Originally Posted by reiella

Makes me wonder if you have done threaded programming myself to be honest . But neither here nor there [and again, that was really a low-blow and a logical falacy on my part, so my apologies]. Consider the reasons EA said they were using the PS3 for lead platform instead of the 360. Pretty much the exact opposite of your reasoning.

Yes, I have done threaded programming, and I don't know what I said that makes you wonder.

What I said matches up perfectly with what you said. You can run 6 threads simultaneously on a 360. If you want to run more than 6 you have to combine them. Either you combine the threads into one thread, or you run them back to back (combine them on one core). Either way what I said applies. Neither way is simple. Both methods will be WAY slower than the PS3. Neither way would be acceptable to 360 owners, I'd feel sorry if they tried. All of this assumes that there aren't completely and utterly independent threads with plenty of free time, but I'm going to claim there aren't.

Sorry that I didn't include one word (simultaneously).

[Excalibur-king]

Originally Posted by Ascended_Saiyan

Actually, most X360 games are on dual-layered DVDs. That means (with security software included) the X360 has about 7GB at it's disposal...not 4.5GB.

Let's just traffic in truths, if we can. Personally, I believe Sony just thinks a lot further ahead and accounts for more variables than MS.

Yeah i thought i hear something like that a while ago, not really sure though i really have zero interest in the xbox 360 it has no good games, but the jump from 4gb to 7gb is really not that much and it still fails when it comes to real next gen. games thats why all the exclusives always feel so incomplete look at forza 2 it has so little tracks ans cars, dvd effect again.

and thats why Sony always wins they always think ahead and long term they havent been the champions and made record sales that the competition will never achive for nothing.

[reiella]

Originally Posted by Terjyn

Yes, I have done threaded programming, and I don't know what I said that makes you wonder.

What I said matches up perfectly with what you said. You can run 6 threads simultaneously on a 360. If you want to run more than 6 you have to combine them. Either you combine the threads into one thread, or you run them back to back (combine them on one core). Either way what I said applies.

If you could assure thread concurrence, why do you need to make programs threadsafe?

[Terjyn]

Originally Posted by reiella

If you could assure thread concurrence, why do you need to make programs threadsafe?

Is this a test question? You still need to be somewhat threadsafe because you don't want one thread accessing changing data from a different thread.

By the way, I added more detail to the post you responded to.

*EDIT* To clarify I have not done Microsoft OS multiple-thread programming. I have done tons of custom-OS threadbased programming. It's been my job for over 10 years now.

[GORT]

Originally Posted by Cidien

Ya know what, never mind. I've argued before and brought up a lot more technical facts than this and still people spit at me. Just, never mind.

I would like to yet again point out that i'm not a 360 fanboy. I do prefer the system, but i'm not a fanboy. Just irritates me when people put the ps3 on a freakin pedestal like it's the end all gaming platform.

Just one Question, Why Would You come on a PS3 forum and say the 360 is better then ***** when people argue with you did you leave your Common Sense pills at home today?

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Originally Posted by shaka

Yeah i thought i hear something like that a while ago, not really sure though i really have zero interest in the xbox 360 it has no good games, but the jump from 4gb to 7gb is really not that much and it still fails when it comes to real next gen. games thats why all the exclusives always feel so incomplete look at forza 2 it has so little tracks ans cars, dvd effect again.

and thats why Sony always wins they always think ahead and long term they havent been the champions and made record sales that the competition will never achive for nothing.

Come on with the "no good games" comment, dude. You are sounding as bad as the xbots. Of course, that is your opinion, but I can't help but to think negative emotion about MS is creating the opinion.

Originally Posted by FEP3108

Just one Question, Why Would You come on a PS3 forum and say the 360 is better then ***** when people argue with you did you leave your Common Sense pills at home today?

I don't think he is saying the X360 is "better" than the PS3. I think he is trying to say they are near equals in power/capability. However, we have not even reached the 2 year mark yet and we have seen things on the PS3 that the X360 hasn't been able to match with an extra year with supposedly easier development. That speaks volumes.

Look at GT5P. It has more features than PGR3 and runs at nearly twice the resolution of Forza 2. Then, it pushes nearly twice the traingles, with 2xAA, realistic look, and more cars on the road via the online experience.

If you think the next Forza or PGR will match this, ...wait for it.

[Excalibur-king]

Originally Posted by Ascended_Saiyan

Come on with the "no good games" comment, dude. You are sounding as bad as the xbots. Of course, that is your opinion, but I can't help but to think negative emotion about MS is creating the opinion.



I don't think he is saying the X360 is "better" than the PS3. I think he is trying to say they are near equals in power/capability. However, we have not even reached the 2 year mark yet and we have seen things on the PS3 that the X360 hasn't been able to match with an extra year with supposedly easier development. That speaks volumes.

Look at GT5P. It has more features than PGR3 and runs at nearly twice the resolution of Forza 2. Then, it pushes nearly twice the traingles, with 2xAA, realistic look, and more cars on the road via the online experience.

If you think the next Forza or PGR will match this, ...wait for it.

GT5p isnt that what the xbox fanbois love to call just a demo?

1080p@60fps with 16 cars on screen LOL this demo is a generation a ahead of what the xbox 360 will ever achive.

PS3 is times more powerfull then xbox 360 if someone cant get pass by this proven fact then its a waste.

[reiella]

Originally Posted by Terjyn

Is this a test question? You still need to be somewhat threadsafe because you don't want one thread accessing changing data from a different thread.

By the way, I added more detail to the post you responded to.

*EDIT* To clarify I have not done Microsoft OS multiple-thread programming. I have done tons of custom-OS threadbased programming. It's been my job for over 10 years now.

It's true for VMS, Solaris, and Linux that I know firsthand. It's the basic premise behind thread-safe programming at a conceptual level, since every cycle, a given core can only be doing on thread at a time, it's alot harder to notice when you talking about cycles are ~ 1/3200000 seconds .

Not quite a test question [although it may well be, generic enough ]. The consequence of the 'why' got lost though. You need to be able to assure that output remains consistant, despite execution order.

[ add / edit ]
And, ah the fun of industry terms, that change based upon your culture... It's fun .

[AM-MAN]

Originally Posted by Ascended_Saiyan

The fact that you said they could just put MGS4 on multiple discs tells me you have no idea what's going on between the 50GB BD and the HDD during the game. If there were no CPU issues that would prevent MGS4 from being on the X360, the X360 version would have to not only swap discs but load them on the HDD as well. MGS4 can NOT be done in it's current form on the X360 for a number of reasons. Just accept it.

According to the detailed GG developer presentation, KZ2 could not be done on the X360. That's due to the forward and deferred rendering engines using 4 processors to generate amazing 720p graphics. KZ2 is beyond anything on or coming to the X360. There will be more. MAG will most likely not possible on the X360. The audio from these 1st/2nd party games can't even be done on the X360. Will you accept it or continue to live in denial?

The main things are audio and video. MGS4 and KZ2 are beyond the X360 in these areas.

If you want, we can make a list of console features and see which one is longer. That's the logical way of doing this. Then, we can go to the internal component as well.

and maybe u can add to that all the coming exclusives "to blow our minds" .today there is also a piece of news on n4g on another such one that will be announced on august three .if the PS3 did not out baste the box so far there seems to be alot done on many fronts to do that in the very near future .
i think the PS3 will live to see another xbox in it,s lifetime

[Cidien]

Originally Posted by FEP3108

Just one Question, Why Would You come on a PS3 forum and say the 360 is better then ***** when people argue with you did you leave your Common Sense pills at home today?

I own a ps3. I love blu ray. I never said 360 is better. When did I say "ps3 sucks because the 360 has this!"? I've been exceptionally clear that i'm not hating on the ps3. I just don't like when people act like its this super amazing system that can do anything and the 360 is garbage next to it. They live in a dream world.