House: Two Stories (1986-1987) (Limited Edition)

[GasmaskAvenger]

Yeah, I believe the blu-ray for the original Friday the 13th cropped too much of the picture to fit the aspect ratio for HD televisions.

[JohnCarpenterFan]

The goofs aren't the main issue for me as they aren't visible throughout the entire presentation, meanwhile the misaligned image destroys the composition for the entirety of the film barring the opening titles and end credits.

A lot of work is put into composing films and for good reason. Techniques are used which manipulate the viewer and draw their attention to specific parts of the image (see the rule of thirds). This can lead to increased immersion, tension, etc. When this is knocked off balance the effect is lost and the viewer will focus on other parts of the image depending on their position which may ruin the integrity of the original intention.

Just because something is centered doesn't mean that it's "correct", again see the rule of thirds.



On the left is an uncorrected image with the rock in the center, on the right is a corrected image which conforms to the rule of thirds. However parts of the image on the House Blu-ray which are clearly meant to be centered (TVs, the shot with the hand being flushed down the toilet) are pushed to the right because of the superfluous information on the left and are now off-balance.

As someone who has been taught composition, it's very hard for me not to notice these things along with the addition of extra items at the side which are inharmonious with the rest of the image.

If goofs are all that bother you then I doubt you will be that affected by the Blu-ray as they aren't the primary issue, however if you have even a basic understanding of composition then you'll likely be annoyed by the presentation.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Rockercub

I eventually conceded on the Creepshow 2 thread, but I think I'm taking it back. I think it's off center. I have no idea how it got that way on the IP, but there's obviously something screwy going on at Lakeshore. Not to pick a fight with you, but just re-establishing my initial opinion. I'm not a huge House fan, but I had to pop over here after looking at the caps to see if anyone else noticed it. I feel bad for you guys.

I'm not saying Creepshow 2 was not misframed, it seems like it was. I'm just saying when watching it it didn't feel misframed. Hellraiser 3 on the other hand feels off the whole movie, constantly distracting. So I am hoping House is more like Creepshow 2 than Hellraiser 3, though obviously it's a bummer either way.

The Dillenger example is interesting. I hesitate to attack Arrow in general because this is five movies out of hundreds, but that does lend some evidence to the idea that Arrow are making this error themselves somehow. I still think 4 of the 5 being Lakeshore titles can't be a coincidence.

[tenia]

Originally Posted by nitin

Even it was $US79, what difference would that make?

Inflating the price when saying "it's expensive so it should be made with care" kind of is counter productive and manipulative.
Since, you know, you had to inflate the price to support your point.

[JohnCarpenterFan]

Had another look through House II. Again, from what I've seen the framing isn't a big issue and it only appears to be off by a little bit. You can see stuff like walls from other rooms and the like at the very left-hand side. The composition doesn't appear to be completely compromised and I imagine that by zooming in slightly, none of this will be noticeable. Keep in mind I haven't fully watched the film and have only seen portions through chapter skipping. These are shots showing lighting equipment at the sides in a scene at the very start of a chapter:





It's too bad that the original film was the one that got the worst treatment considering it is the only House film I actually like.

[StingingVelvet]

Posted this in UK section buy copying to here because I'm curious if I'm insane or on to something...

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I'm having a thought, like Pacino in Dick Tracy. I remember a contractor who worked for Arrow mentioned in the Creepshow 2 thread that the movie was framed based on the credits being centered. Since these are all New World titles through Lakeshore, I am wondering if maybe back in the day New World was odd and did NOT frame their credits centered on the release framing, but on the negative? Maybe that weird decision 30 years ago could be causing this issue?

Just a thought.

[YelllowSamuel]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Posted this in UK section buy copying to here because I'm curious if I'm insane or on to something...

Almost certainly the case, shots with composite elements, be it credits or matte paintings, are usually framed differently in the master compared to standard footage. The colours are usually way off as well, which can be 'interesting' if you have a shot that cuts back and forth with and without a credit, for example.

Chances are the original DVD versions centred the credits and zoomed in massively to compensate, which is also why previous DVD releases aren't necessarily a bullet-proof way of checking these things. If there's no other reference to hand there's no real way of knowing exactly what the original theatrical framing was, and there's huge amounts of unused picture in all directions in a full frame. It's not as simple as slapping a 1.85 or 2.39 crop on something.

Hypothetically, if you treat the 35mm as the master, but also use the DVD as the framing reference, then you're left with a film where all the credits are on the left. So lets say you chop the shots that don't look 'right' up and reframe those manually... then arguably you're making creative changes because you're reframing the master. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't, although if there's nothing to compare it to then it's unlikely anyone would comment.

[grodd]

Good posts JC Fan. The framing is unquestionably off. After a look at more frames of everything and reading a few more posts, it's easy to tell what happened here.

I do like the framing better in that monster shot though, but will need to see it in motion.

[JohnCarpenterFan]

This isn't behavior linked solely to Lakeshore as IPs are essentially color-counterparts to negatives, framing and all.

Here are some of my comments from the Creepshow 2 thread over a month ago:

Originally Posted by JohnCarpenterFan

IIRC, a person who worked on the Arrow disc confirmed that the framing wasn't adjusted between the titles (which look fine) and the rest of the film (which looks off) which isn't a good thing considering IPs usually don't display the final intended framing.

Originally Posted by JohnCarpenterFan

You can't compare opticals to actual footage and assume that because the framing suits opticals then it will work for the rest too. Creepshow 2 consists of opticals, animation and regular live action footage, the opticals appear to be fine but the others have their own consistent issues.

As far as I was concerned all suspicions I had were confirmed when the contractor who worked for Arrow confirmed that the whole film had been framed based on the one aspect of the presentation.

I just looked through my Arrow discs to see if they had done any other IP remasters that weren't provided/scanned for them, but couldn't find any. I've been told that several IP scans they did (which I don't own) have similar issues with extra information at the sides. If this is true then I think that these issues are due to Arrow's practices.

[Rockercub]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I'm not saying Creepshow 2 was not misframed, it seems like it was. I'm just saying when watching it it didn't feel misframed. Hellraiser 3 on the other hand feels off the whole movie, constantly distracting. So I am hoping House is more like Creepshow 2 than Hellraiser 3, though obviously it's a bummer either way.

Ah, got it. Yeah, I can't comment on Arrow's framing 'cause I never picked it up.

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

The Dillenger example is interesting. I hesitate to attack Arrow in general because this is five movies out of hundreds, but that does lend some evidence to the idea that Arrow are making this error themselves somehow. I still think 4 of the 5 being Lakeshore titles can't be a coincidence.

I still consider myself an Arrow fan, but this is getting out of control. I just wish they'd address the issue.

[nitin]

Originally Posted by asabreed

Wasn't Creepshow 2 like this also?

I enjoyed watching it and has no issues as far as noticing framing.

And I doubt it would have sold as many copies if everyone felt differently than I did.

I put that one in a 'maybe' basket along with The Stuff, but Hellraiser 3 and House's compositions look visibly off.

[Martin_31]

That's the good thing from Scream is that they usually offer a replacement. I mean if people start to email them or post on Facebook, they're more likely to say something.

[Wildcat2000]

Ok after reading through these posts I think I'm starting to better understand. Goofs aside...people are bothered by just the extra space appearing in general?

I don't have my set yet but as a few others have said, I don't think it's that big a problem.

Ignoring goofs for a moment, why is getting some extra bits of environment in the frame a big deal?

[Rockercub]

Originally Posted by Wildcat2000

Ok after reading through these posts I think I'm starting to better understand. Goofs aside...people are bothered by just the extra space appearing in general?

I don't have my set yet but as a few others have said, I don't think it's that big a problem.

Ignoring goofs for a moment, why is getting some extra bits of environment in the frame a big deal?

Go back and read JohnCarpenterFan's post on composition.

[Wernski]

Originally Posted by Wildcat2000

Ok after reading through these posts I think I'm starting to better understand. Goofs aside...people are bothered by just the extra space appearing in general?

I don't have my set yet but as a few others have said, I don't think it's that big a problem.

Ignoring goofs for a moment, why is getting some extra bits of environment in the frame a big deal?

Framing and composition is a core, defining element of visual art.

[Wildcat2000]

Ok If I understand correctly (I even googled it) these kind of misframes mess up your sense of attention and focus because you have to change where you're looking?

I still don't see how this can be that big of a distraction unless it was ridiculously out of proportion with a ton of negative space. The screen caps for House only seem to have maybe an inch or more of extra environment.

For example the arm goof...it'd be nice if that was gone. Then all you'd see is a bit more of the wall with the pictures on it. Which is the actual house set. That's really bad?

[tenia]

Framing IS part of filmmaking. Messing with it can be seen as not far away from messing with the AR, for instance.
In this case, it's not a small thing like opening from 1.85 to 1.78 or slightly zooming out. Opening on the left to the soundtrack area means opening a non-negligible area that wasn't supposed to be shown.

[Rockercub]

Originally Posted by Wildcat2000

Ok If I understand correctly (I even googled it) these kind of misframes mess up your sense of attention and focus because you have to change where you're looking?

I still don't see how this can be that big of a distraction unless it was ridiculously out of proportion with a ton of negative space. The screen caps for House only seem to have maybe an inch or more of extra environment.

For example the arm goof...it'd be nice if that was gone. Then all you'd see is a bit more of the wall with the pictures on it. Which is the actual house set. That's really bad?

It's most noticeable on a shot that was obviously intended to be centered. Toggle back and forth on this cap from Hellraiser III and maybe you'll see what we're talking about.

https://www.caps-a-holic.com/c.php?g...65296&i=11&l=0

[Wildcat2000]

I understand what everyone is saying. It is quite noticeable with that Hellraiser cap. I get that it's about being true to how the how the movie was intended.

If you knew me you'd know I'm actually kind of a "perfectionist" with similar things. So just to clarify, I'm NOT saying it's ok to mess up or change things or that filmmakers shouldn't care about composition.

I just think given that this movie is pretty old and this is best available version these errors are not a huge issue. Not for me anyway but I do understand why are people are upset.

[Rockercub]

Originally Posted by Wildcat2000

I just think given that this movie is pretty old and this is best available version these errors are not a huge issue. Not for me anyway but I do understand why are people are upset.

Those are also things that come into play. There were a lot of comments back when Hellraiser III came out to the effect of: who cares, it's a horrible movie anyways. But each of these movies has its hardcore fans, and it's probably a bigger issue for them. Or maybe not -- maybe they're happy to just have something available in HD. With Hellraiser III and Creepshow 2, there were at least some other options. I've been pretty fortunate in that none of these are huge favorites of mine, but if Scream Factory had made a similar error on Carrie, I'd be really pissed off.