The Matrix Trilogy discussion

[Pieter V]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

That's kinda what i mean. People just take stuff outta context for quotes. His true feeling is that the sequels didn't live up to the original and the sequels were being from what i gather influenced more at a studio level probably due to the massive success of the original.

To me, i do agree with him and maybe it would be interesting to know what direction he meant they wanted to take but didn't.

Oh I missed, Himmel's post. Yes, just a few quotes not the whole thing.

[spider-neil]

The Matrix is my favorite movie of all time, bar none. I remember watching reloaded for the first time and feeling bitter disappointment. I had the same feeling watching Spider-Man 3 which was the follow-up to Spider-Man 2 (at the time my favorite superhero movie of all time) bitter disappointment.

My views on the Matrix sequels have softened but I'll never love them. The original movie didn't need a sequel.

As an aside, I thought the Matrix sequel was going to be about freeing humans. Removing the veil so humans can see the Matrix really is. I thought the villain was going to be a previous 'ONE' that had sided with the machines. I definitely wouldn't have brought back Agent Smith, I thought his story was done.

My biggest problem with the sequels and where the original succeeds is too much waffling about philosophy rather than showing through visuals. For instance when Neo is talking to the architect, the architect is giving Neo a choice of save Trinity and doom the human race. That was the stacks and I didn't get that at all on first viewing.

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by CreasyBear

The Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions seem about as far from being influenced by the studio as possible as far big budget movies go.

Back then studios imo after a Mega hit trusted a little more and WB back then was a bit more hands off than they may be moreso these days. That doesn't mean they had as much carte blanche as you think or Bill Pope wouldn't have said as much imo about going in a different direction.

The truth is, i wish we had a bit more details on it but hey, maybe there's hints in this Mateix 4 coming.

[TheWildWhelk]

The first film is almost beyond reproach, but the second film failed on so many levels when it really shouldn't have, from it's lethargic pace and over indulgent Zion sequences to the CG Burly Brawl fight. For Revolutions, it plays out in the only manner the denouement could do; Zion Vs The Machines whilst Neo finds an alternate solution. The Neo/Smith fight should have been fougt in daylight rather than have to dark-clad characters going at it during a downpour. Poor decision there, Wachowski's...

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by TheWildWhelk

The first film is almost beyond reproach, but the second film failed on so many levels when it really shouldn't have, from it's lethargic pace and over indulgent Zion sequences to the CG Burly Brawl fight. For Revolutions, it plays out in the only manner the denouement could do; Zion Vs The Machines whilst Neo finds an alternate solution. The Neo/Smith fight should have been fougt in daylight rather than have to dark-clad characters going at it during a downpour. Poor decision there, Wachowski's...

The sequels are a story of missed opportunity imo.

Maybe one day we'll see a remake of sorts and they do go in a different direction but to me, The Matrix is a classic and forever will be. You could even just nix the sequels and imagine it as a stand alone however apparently the Animatrix is a very good companion piece but almost impossible to find with the Blu Ray collections these days.

[The Debts]

The first film will always be the best, no question. But for all of their flaws, the sequels at least tried to do something very different philosophically and thematically. They actively try to expand the world, both the digital and real, in strange ways. I'll admit that the Wachowskis bit off more than they could chew with them (mainly with the second film than the third) but they're still entertaining and sport a personal thumb print about them that most blockbusters in the past couple of years don't have.

I hope with the 4th film, Lana takes an approach that balances the simplicity of the first with the ambitions of the sequels. Don't be afraid to get weird and out there (the reappearance of Carrie Anne Moss definitely suggests something going on) but don't let it get out of hand either.

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by The Debts

The first film will always be the best, no question. But for all of their flaws, the sequels at least tried to do something very different philosophically and thematically. They actively try to expand the world, both the digital and real, in strange ways. I'll admit that the Wachowskis bit off more than they could chew with them (mainly with the second film than the third) but they're still entertaining and sport a personal thumb print about them that most blockbusters in the past couple of years don't have.

I hope with the 4th film, Lana takes an approach that balances the simplicity of the first with the ambitions of the sequels. Don't be afraid to get weird and out there (the reappearance of Carrie Anne Moss definitely suggests something going on) but don't let it get out of hand either.

Looking at the sequels, they ultimately seemed unfocused compared to the first and that's really where the problem lies. Imagine the Merovingian actually was more than just a caricature and was the primary antagonist of the sequel making Neo and the others realise they not only had to deal with the Agents and Machines but these rogue programmes with their own interests and overcome that aspect to keep freeing humans.

Having Neo fight The Twins was such a massively missed visual opportunity imo but their CGI was also a little wonky and i don't know why, but the designs on some of the clothes were a bit "cheap" such as again going with latex for Trinity which didn't look as good as in the first movies clothes for her as well as the Twins looking like their suits were cheaper than some of the others.

Generally though, i stand by what i said. First sequel dealing almost entirely with the real world and leading to where the Machines just decide "screw it", they'll take out Zion and start again with a new version of The Matrix. In that instance, there's no concept of "The One" like we were presented with because it really genuinely didn't make sense the Machines had just been destroying Zion multiple times the exact same way.

[levcore]

They really shouldn't have spent so much time in the big battle in Revolutions with characters we just do not care about. Either put our primary characters in the battle or have less of the battle.

[Foggy]

Ah, so that’s why Pope isn’t back for the fourth film.

A bit of a shame, but understandable that the experience was bad and the pressure and ego got to the Wachowski’s a bit. As much as I can over look the second film’s flaws for the cool stuff they did, I really do find the third film to be really insufferable.

[NARMAK]

I have watched extras and stuff for the sequels but it never really gave me a proper insight into why they went from a story so focused and precise in execution to something so much bigger and messy in scope.

[levcore]

Because WB offered them hundreds of millions of dollars to do whatever they want. They suddenly had an unlimited sandbox to play in.

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by levcore

Because WB offered them hundreds of millions of dollars to do whatever they want. They suddenly had an unlimited sandbox to play in.

Shame.

It is more true i guess that when the budgets not there, you're forced to get more creative whereas an enhanced budget could make creative decisions more lazy.

I've been thinking if we had Reloaded basically have the same sort of beats where The Merovingian basically had The Keymaker as he did but Neo needed him to help get more humans safely out of the Matrix by taking them through backdoors and to places where they could extract them more en masse and that meeting with the captains was to decided how the hell they even choose anymore who is freed as they just don't have the numbers. The Machines send the agents and Neo goes to fight them BUT we also see the others fighting as i believe the Matrix game on PS2 "Enter The Matrix" focused on Ghost and Niobe. Instead of making that into a game, a LOT of that should have been focused into the sequel. Man, just thinking about makes me think what a massive missed opportunity that is.

[sandman slim]

I love all three movies, never have understood all the hate.

Matrix 4ever!

[DR Herbert West]

I Love the first. I enjoy the sequels.

[mwynn]

Original Matrix Reloaded script.
https://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Matrix-Reloaded,-The.html

[puddy77]

https://youtu.be/adXm2sDzGkQ

[Jay H.]

I'm glad the Wachowski Sisters are confirming what most of us have suspected for years. It makes me appreciate The Matrix even more.

[NARMAK]

[FiendishlyInventive]

Good stuff.

[FiendishlyInventive]

Hoping the new one's a return to form.