Lossless disappointments - Blu-ray Forum

davcole · 08-10-2009, 01:53 PM

Maybe I shouldn't say disappointment moreso than underwhelmed.

Many of us BD fans are into the audio side of BD, so we anxiously await re-releases of some of our favorites in lossless audio (irregardless of the codec). While there are some that seem like a quantum leap above our DVD-quality DD, some don't seem to be that great an improvement, or maybe they provide less than we expected.

What are some of your nominees?

I have to admit being underwhelmed with the PCM of THE ROCK. While the extra "oomph" is certainly there, there is a distinct lack of clarity.

I expected BROKEN ARROW to be killer, but I admit I was a bit underwhelmed with the clarity of the DTSMA track.

Kryptonic · 08-10-2009, 02:01 PM

What receiver do you have? It may have something to do with the settings in your receiver.

Lossless isn't a quantum leap like the picture quality on BD's, but it is there for sure. I'm new to lossless as well, buying a Denon 590 a couple of days ago, but I definitely hear a distinct difference. I thought the Dolby Digital on Superman Returns was the tops until I listened to the PCM. I was floored. Clarity and dynamic range is the big improvement and I find both to be very noticeable, not to mention a more pronounced low end. But then of course there are a lot of standard DD and DTS tracks that give lossless a run for its money. I.E. Saving Private Ryan (DTS), The Haunting (DTS-ES), and Lord of the Rings (DTS-ES). A lot of it's more dependent on the mix and design of the movie itself as opposed to the sound system being implemented to decode it.

davcole · 08-10-2009, 02:27 PM

Receiver is fine, otherwise it would effect all the titles I listen to.

BIslander · 08-10-2009, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

...there are a lot of standard DD and DTS tracks that give lossless a run for its money. I.E. Saving Private Ryan (DTS), The Haunting (DTS-ES), and Lord of the Rings (DTS-ES).

There's intermediate ground here as well for those who use S/PDIF connections for audio with Blu-ray. Lossless tracks on Blu get output as DTS and DD 5.1 over S/PDIF. While they are the "same" as the tracks on DVD, they are encoded at higher bitrates (less compression) and sound quite a bit better than the DVD versions. In fact, they often sound every bit as good as lossless. But, of course, a bad mix is still a bad mix no matter how it is encoded.

AikonEnt · 08-10-2009, 03:27 PM

The thing I've noticed is that the talking in some movies sometimes goes really quiet. I watched the original Halloween last night and when the girls were talking near the beginning of the film (before MM goes to work on them

) it was very quiet, and much quieter than other parts. Seemed to be very inconsistent. Now the room I was in was silent so no big deal, but I don't want to be constantly changing the volume through a film because I can't hear what's going on.

tlmaclennan · 08-10-2009, 03:35 PM

Not really a problem with the lossless aspect, more the mixing of the audio but i am dissapointed with The Dark Knight. Great for action scenes but dialogue is out of whack! At times it's too quiet and other times (when Batman speaks) it's way too loud and deep. There are others like this but I realize it's not a lossless problem.

ryoohki · 08-10-2009, 04:06 PM

Before all the codecs and the likes. the first responsible for a track is the Mixer or the mixing team. If the mixer is top notch, you'll get a top notch track. If the mixer is sub par, you'll get a sub par mix.

It's just like CD. Some CD/LP sound like crap no matter if it's 4508405984590khz/12000000bits because the mixing was done in a crappy way.

ProvenFlipper · 08-10-2009, 04:10 PM

I was disappointed with Twister's TrueHD track. No low end at all...

aramis109 · 08-10-2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlmaclennan

Not really a problem with the lossless aspect, more the mixing of the audio but i am dissapointed with The Dark Knight. Great for action scenes but dialogue is out of whack! At times it's too quiet and other times (when Batman speaks) it's way too loud and deep. There are others like this but I realize it's not a lossless problem.

I would suspect that what you're hearing in Batman is due to your setup. No disrespect is intended but you probably have (and SHOULD have) those speakers crossed over at 120hz. As a result, Batman's rumbly voice is dipping into your subwoofer, whereas for example on my system it still comes from the front soundstage.

BD's are many times more dynamic in their volume changes than DVD's. I've never found that to be an issue. The only disappointments I've experienced is when lossless isn't offered. Sometimes hearing movies that are heavy on the fronts (like Big Trouble in Little China) is initially disappointing, but one has to remember the age in which they were mixed.

retablo · 08-10-2009, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AikonEnt

The thing I've noticed is that the talking in some movies sometimes goes really quiet. I watched the original Halloween last night and when the girls were talking near the beginning of the film (before MM goes to work on them

) it was very quiet, and much quieter than other parts. Seemed to be very inconsistent. Now the room I was in was silent so no big deal, but I don't want to be constantly changing the volume through a film because I can't hear what's going on.

+1

My hearing isn't top notch, so I always turn up dialogue scenes, then BAM! an explosion knocks books off my shelves. Band of Brothers had me on volume control for 10 hours.

SquidPuppet · 08-10-2009, 05:48 PM

Dialogue; loud enough but slightly muffled and lacking clarity.

Explosions lacked separation and oomph (loud enough, but no PUNCH).

OP, I know exactly what you are getting at. Some are mindbogglingly good, and some are big surprises with lost opportunities.

PoorSignal · 08-10-2009, 06:07 PM

lossless has been the best asepect of BD for me so far, the movie music really come alive. I only buy BDs with lossless sound (prefer DTS-HD-MA)

The difference similar to the difference of playing MP3 vs CD. I think some DVDs have very compressed sound that sound worse than MP3s.. the DD5.1 rate is like 600kbps but then that's divided into 6 channels isn't it? Anyways the size of the sound on a BD is magnitude bigger than the compressed sound of DVDs.

I had before a cheap 5.1 system with cubes, and with that I wouldn't be sure I could tell the improvement, once I upgraded to some decent Energy speakers (their "reference" line) with a powerful receiver 140w / channel. I pop in a DVD and can tell the sound was very compressed in some of them. You should notice a big difference in the music score of the movie.

So far havn't had disappointments yet because I read the reviews carefully. I did put in the DVD of "Tomorrow Never Dies" and it doesn't sound very good, I hope they will improve this drasticly when they create the BD for the previous Bond movies!

davcole · 08-10-2009, 06:41 PM

I was disappointed in the TRUEHD of HANCOCK.

Kryptonic · 08-10-2009, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIslander

There's intermediate ground here as well for those who use S/PDIF connections for audio with Blu-ray. Lossless tracks on Blu get output as DTS and DD 5.1 over S/PDIF. While they are the "same" as the tracks on DVD, they are encoded at higher bitrates (less compression) and sound quite a bit better than the DVD versions. In fact, they often sound every bit as good as lossless. But, of course, a bad mix is still a bad mix no matter how it is encoded.

Unless of course they're encoded at 1.5mbps like a select few DVD's.

KilloWertz · 08-10-2009, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sooner_Blu

I couldn't hear the dialogue most of the time. I was constantly changing the volume up and down. I don't remember having to do that on the first 2 Underworld movies.

I had the same exact problem actually. I'm not sure why, but in some parts of the movie I couldn't hear what they were saying. Granted my hearing isn't the best, but it's still not something that happened in the first two Underworld movies. Also, I don't actually have a receiver that can do HD audio, but it would be an issue regardless. I'm still pleased with the release overall, but I just wish they had the dialogue more consistent in the mix.

Kryptron · 08-10-2009, 09:22 PM

I was disappointed with Watchmen, mainly because the dialog volume was too low i remember it sounding much better in the theater.

PoorSignal · 08-10-2009, 09:25 PM

You guys have trouble hearing with the dialog, you did use SPL meter to adjust center channel to be the same DB as the side speakers right?

Also tilting the center channel so it aims at ear level will help.

I think the problem is that the explosions and action are really loud in movies and we turn it down to COMPENSATE for them but that in turns make the dialog quiet.

BIslander · 08-11-2009, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

Unless of course they're encoded at 1.5mbps like a select few DVD's.

Yes, there were about 40 released that way, none in the last few years.

08-10-2009, 01:53 PM	#1
davcole Power Member Member since:Aug 2007 Location:Cincinnati, Oh 4K collection:138 Blu-ray collection:407 Digital collection:25 Blu-ray reviews: 146 Trading Score:9	Lossless disappointments Maybe I shouldn't say disappointment moreso than underwhelmed. Many of us BD fans are into the audio side of BD, so we anxiously await re-releases of some of our favorites in lossless audio (irregardless of the codec). While there are some that seem like a quantum leap above our DVD-quality DD, some don't seem to be that great an improvement, or maybe they provide less than we expected. What are some of your nominees? I have to admit being underwhelmed with the PCM of THE ROCK. While the extra "oomph" is certainly there, there is a distinct lack of clarity. I expected BROKEN ARROW to be killer, but I admit I was a bit underwhelmed with the clarity of the DTSMA track.

08-10-2009, 02:01 PM	#2
Kryptonic Suspended Member since:Jul 2009 Trading Score:45	What receiver do you have? It may have something to do with the settings in your receiver. Lossless isn't a quantum leap like the picture quality on BD's, but it is there for sure. I'm new to lossless as well, buying a Denon 590 a couple of days ago, but I definitely hear a distinct difference. I thought the Dolby Digital on Superman Returns was the tops until I listened to the PCM. I was floored. Clarity and dynamic range is the big improvement and I find both to be very noticeable, not to mention a more pronounced low end. But then of course there are a lot of standard DD and DTS tracks that give lossless a run for its money. I.E. Saving Private Ryan (DTS), The Haunting (DTS-ES), and Lord of the Rings (DTS-ES). A lot of it's more dependent on the mix and design of the movie itself as opposed to the sound system being implemented to decode it. Last edited by Kryptonic; 08-10-2009 at 02:34 PM.

08-10-2009, 05:48 PM	#11
SquidPuppet Blu-ray Duke Top contributor Member since:Dec 2007 Location:Club Loop Blu-ray collection:277 Blu-ray reviews:27	V for Vendetta Dialogue; loud enough but slightly muffled and lacking clarity. Explosions lacked separation and oomph (loud enough, but no PUNCH). OP, I know exactly what you are getting at. Some are mindbogglingly good, and some are big surprises with lost opportunities.

08-10-2009, 06:07 PM	#12
PoorSignal Senior Member Member since:Jul 2009 Trading Score:24	lossless has been the best asepect of BD for me so far, the movie music really come alive. I only buy BDs with lossless sound (prefer DTS-HD-MA) The difference similar to the difference of playing MP3 vs CD. I think some DVDs have very compressed sound that sound worse than MP3s.. the DD5.1 rate is like 600kbps but then that's divided into 6 channels isn't it? Anyways the size of the sound on a BD is magnitude bigger than the compressed sound of DVDs. I had before a cheap 5.1 system with cubes, and with that I wouldn't be sure I could tell the improvement, once I upgraded to some decent Energy speakers (their "reference" line) with a powerful receiver 140w / channel. I pop in a DVD and can tell the sound was very compressed in some of them. You should notice a big difference in the music score of the movie. So far havn't had disappointments yet because I read the reviews carefully. I did put in the DVD of "Tomorrow Never Dies" and it doesn't sound very good, I hope they will improve this drasticly when they create the BD for the previous Bond movies! Last edited by PoorSignal; 08-10-2009 at 08:45 PM.

Similar Threads
thread	Forum	Thread Starter	Replies	Last Post
Great Expectations (Import) brings NO Disappointments	Blu-ray Movies - International	lgans316	5	02-25-2025 07:18 PM
Biggest Blu-ray disappointments of 2009, Your Opinions?	Blu-ray Movies - North America	banned user105	229	11-29-2009 06:33 PM
15 Biggest tech disappointments '07	General Chat	The Don	7	12-18-2007 11:27 PM
Your E3 Impressions, surprises, and disappointments?	PS3	DezNutz	8	07-16-2007 07:55 PM
Somy ranked #1 in 2006 Tech disappointments?	Blu-ray Technology and Future Technology	Emannikcufesin	29	01-15-2007 04:19 PM

08-10-2009, 02:27 PM	#3
davcole Power Member Member since:Aug 2007 Location:Cincinnati, Oh 4K collection:138 Blu-ray collection:407 Digital collection:25 Blu-ray reviews: 146 Trading Score:9	Receiver is fine, otherwise it would effect all the titles I listen to.

08-10-2009, 03:27 PM	#5
AikonEnt Blu-ray Guru Member since:Oct 2007 Location:Crawley, UK Blu-ray collection:246	The thing I've noticed is that the talking in some movies sometimes goes really quiet. I watched the original Halloween last night and when the girls were talking near the beginning of the film (before MM goes to work on them ) it was very quiet, and much quieter than other parts. Seemed to be very inconsistent. Now the room I was in was silent so no big deal, but I don't want to be constantly changing the volume through a film because I can't hear what's going on.

08-10-2009, 03:35 PM	#6
tlmaclennan Senior Member Member since:Dec 2008 Location:Garden Grove, CA Home Theater Gallery:21 Blu-ray collection:121 Trading Score:1	Not really a problem with the lossless aspect, more the mixing of the audio but i am dissapointed with The Dark Knight. Great for action scenes but dialogue is out of whack! At times it's too quiet and other times (when Batman speaks) it's way too loud and deep. There are others like this but I realize it's not a lossless problem.

08-10-2009, 04:06 PM	#7
ryoohki Blu-ray Samurai Member since:May 2007 Home Theater Gallery:6 Blu-ray collection:6 Blu-ray reviews:8 Trading Score:5	Before all the codecs and the likes. the first responsible for a track is the Mixer or the mixing team. If the mixer is top notch, you'll get a top notch track. If the mixer is sub par, you'll get a sub par mix. It's just like CD. Some CD/LP sound like crap no matter if it's 4508405984590khz/12000000bits because the mixing was done in a crappy way.

08-10-2009, 04:10 PM	#8
ProvenFlipper Special Member Member since:Jun 2006 Home Theater Gallery:4 4K collection:332 Blu-ray collection:898 Trading Score:1	I was disappointed with Twister's TrueHD track. No low end at all...

08-10-2009, 06:41 PM	#13
davcole Power Member Member since:Aug 2007 Location:Cincinnati, Oh 4K collection:138 Blu-ray collection:407 Digital collection:25 Blu-ray reviews: 146 Trading Score:9	I was disappointed in the TRUEHD of HANCOCK.

08-10-2009, 09:22 PM	#16
Kryptron Expert Member Member since:Sep 2007 Location:Tampa Bay, FL Home Theater Gallery:21 4K collection:83 Blu-ray collection:450 Trading Score:4	I was disappointed with Watchmen, mainly because the dialog volume was too low i remember it sounding much better in the theater.

08-10-2009, 09:25 PM	#17
PoorSignal Senior Member Member since:Jul 2009 Trading Score:24	You guys have trouble hearing with the dialog, you did use SPL meter to adjust center channel to be the same DB as the side speakers right? Also tilting the center channel so it aims at ear level will help. I think the problem is that the explosions and action are really loud in movies and we turn it down to COMPENSATE for them but that in turns make the dialog quiet.

Best Blu-ray Movie Deals