4K on PS4 and Xbox One?

[Oniros]

Have Sony and Microsoft mentioned anything regarding including support for 4K for their respective consoles in the future? If any of the 2 eventually includes a UHD drive on a "slim/elite" redesign I would definitely get one.

[dvdmike]

Downloads it could

[cybergrimes]

It looks like there's already a 3 page discussion on the topic here:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=262944

[sonicyogurt]

Originally Posted by Oniros

Have Sony and Microsoft mentioned anything regarding including support for 4K for their respective consoles in the future?

About Ultra HD Blu-ray specifically:

Masayasu Ito, who leads hardware engineering/operation for Sony Interactive Entertainment/PlayStation, said last year that it's not possible without updated hardware.

Microsoft's Yusuf Mehdi said in 2013 that the Xbox One would support 4K Blu-ray discs, but seeing as how that statement was made years ago and hasn't really been reiterated by anyone at MS since, I wouldn't put much stock into it.

That's not to say that there definitively won't be Ultra HD Blu-ray playback, but if there will be, Microsoft and Sony haven't said so.

[BozQ]

It can't happen without new hardware. UHD BD uses 66-100GB discs. Something the Xbox One and PlayStation 4's BD drives aren't capable of reading.

There could be a newer version of the consoles that supports UHD BD. But honestly, I'm not looking forward to it. Even on the PS4, using it as a Blu-ray player was a clumsy experience. I'd still rather get a separate UHD BD player if I have to.

[Frank@Chicago]

I just bought my second PS4 this past BF.

Clumsy or no, I would use it for UHD if that were possible and if there was something I actually wanted.

Seems I already have all the big launch titles on 3D BD...

[Opips3]

SONY rejected PS5 system backwards compatibility ps4 games.

I not care.. I stick PS2

[jeff_rigby]

Originally Posted by sonicyogurt

About Ultra HD Blu-ray specifically:

Masayasu Ito, who leads hardware engineering/operation for Sony Interactive Entertainment/PlayStation, said last year that it's not possible without updated hardware.

Microsoft's Yusuf Mehdi said in 2013 that the Xbox One would support 4K Blu-ray discs, but seeing as how that statement was made years ago and hasn't really been reiterated by anyone at MS since, I wouldn't put much stock into it.

That's not to say that there definitively won't be Ultra HD Blu-ray playback, but if there will be, Microsoft and Sony haven't said so since 2013.

But we have discovered:

1) There is no such thing as a UHD drive, it's a modern version 2 drive that complies with the 2010 BD-R whitepaper. So any modern BD-ROM drive can be a version 2 drive if it can read a BD-R disk and UHD requires 4X read speed. There is a quote on this forum stating that PCs will not need a special drive to support UHD Blu-ray. The PS4 documentation says it can read BD-ROM and BD-R while the XB1 says it has a BD-ROM drive. (The Sony 2010 Patent for a version 2 drive states that a version 1 drive could read a version 2 disk with firmware update but maybe not reliably; PS3 has a version 1 disk.)

2) We know that the PS4 has a custom HDMI port that can support up to 120 FPS and HDCP takes place in the Southbridge TEE. There is a 2013 quote from a Sony employee that the PS4 supports a HDMI 2 port. (Firmware update-able to HDMI 2)

3) HEVC requires 1.5 times the GPGPU that h.264 requires and both the XB1 and PS4 have dedicated blocks of GPGPU compute using Xtensa DPUs and Microsoft has announced the XB1 supports HEVC profile 10. They do not mention it will be used for UHD blu-ray but for Netflix UHD IPTV.

AMD subsequently announced they use the same hardware to support HEVC in their APUs and dGPUs (Xtensa DPU in the UVD). Xtensa DPUs can support openCL (GPGPU), OpenVX (Vision processing), Video and audio processing.

4) UHD IPTV, Ultraviolet, Blu-ray and ATSC 3 (UHD Antenna TV world wide 2018 in Korea) use the same software stack (same HEVC Profile 10 and HTML5 browser with W3C extensions). If you can support one you can support all.

5) There is a UHD Blu-ray test player for game consoles to use. It confirms that there are plans for Game Consoles to support UHD blu-ray. The PC UHD BD-ROM listed below is explained and essentially requires the Player to support; BD ROM Mark, AACS 2 and BD+ which are not part of the drive but the player.

What are the business categories available under the ROM4 FLLA?

Ultra HD BD-ROM Media

Ultra HD BD-ROM Movie Player/Game Console/Test Player

Ultra HD BD-ROM PC Drive

AACS 2 & BD+
Ultra HD BD-ROM PC Application Software

Ultra HD BD-ROM CAV Content
Ultra HD BD-ROM Component, and
Ultra HD BD-ROM Tools and Manufacturing Equipment / Ultra HD BD-ROM Testers

Between the PS4 and XB1 they have all the building blocks and the life of both consoles was known to overlap UHD in all it's forms. Sony has never broken the console model allowing major features in a revision that the first version couldn't support with a firmware update.

In addition to the thread in this forum there is one in NeoGAF.

So why did Ito when pressed on the PS4 supporting UHD Blu-ray say that the PS4 drive can't read three layers and there is no HEVC codec in the PS4. My best guess is NDA as from late 2013 there has been no word from either Microsoft or Sony on UHD blu-ray in the XB1 and PS4. Just before release, employees of both companies made the statements in this post and sonicyogurt's.

Ito may be technically correct in that HEVC as a software codec using Xtensa accelerators may not be in the PS4 YET and the PS4 blu-ray drive may require a firmware update to read an inverted track if the 2010 Sony patent for a version 2 drive was implemented.

Both Sony and Microsoft have media plans for Antenna and Cable TV support and Sony started Get TV (antenna TV) and Playstation Vue. Bandwidth and caps require using HEVC for 1080P streaming.

For the PS3 a PDF on Passage was just released at the latest FCC DSTAC (Downloadable Security Technical Advisory Committee) meeting. Page 12 has a chart showing a PS3 being used as a Vidipath STB.

[HTML5 app written by the Cable company using Sony's passage and network tuners to ?emulate a Vidipath Cable TV DVR?. The Sony job posting makes more sense with this proposal

Second Sony Passage Paper to the FCC DSTAC is about using clear QAM tuners (USB, PC Card and Network tuners) with PCs, PS4, Phones and Tablets as the client using the DSS (Downloadable Security Scheme) (page 10 and 11). A picture of the PS3 labeled PS4 on page 11 is using a Hauppauge USB Tuner. Also on that page is a HD Homerun network tuner feeding a home WiFi router to portables.

The 2010 Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint (XB1) has the HD Homerun listed third row down, third column from the left. These two tuners were chosen by the W3C's TV working group as standards and their control schemes will be used as the APIs for the Network and USB tuner control standards supported by W3C extensions to Javascript. HTML5 TV tuner Control will work for both Cable TV and Antenna TV.

ATSC 3 will use the same modulation scheme (QDFM) that cell phones use and the US Antenna TV frequencies being sold to Cell Phone companies are upper band TV UHF. The leaked Xbox 720 hardware slide (Device specific IO bottom right) has cell Phone hardware (HSDPA is an enhanced 3G (third-generation) mobile-telephony communications protocol) which was thought to allow wireless VR using a cell phone but it can also support ATSC 3. ATSC without extension could be 1&2 or 3 or all. XTV support is mentioned multiple times and XTV starts with ATSC 2 and will also be in ATSC 3. Microsoft has announced support for a Antenna TV 1080P DVR; 1080P is only available with ATSC 2.

[saprano]

I expect the PS4 will get support by fall. Perfect timing when the marketing starts.

[Derb]

Originally Posted by saprano

I expect the PS4 will get support by fall. Perfect timing when the marketing starts.

Problem with that is backwards compatibility with existing consoles.

Saying this model will play 4K & this model won't...

Well I think you get it.

[PowerfulMJC]

I don't see Sony or Microsoft adding 4K support on future models of PS4 and Xbox One. I know whenever they release a slim updated version on each console they are going to be wanting to able to LOWER the price. Adding 4K would likely make it impossible to lower the price. The only way I could see them doing it would if they offered more expensive premium models but I just don't see it. It certain would have no gameplay implications as the games on both machines sometimes don't even hit 1080p so 4K would ONLY be useful for UHD Blu-ray movies and I just don't see them adding that to the game machines with the rise of streaming and downloading etc. I think 4K movies are mostly going to live or die on the success of standalone 4K players. Just my opinion!

[MisterXDTV]

Originally Posted by saprano

I expect the PS4 will get support by fall. Perfect timing when the marketing starts.

It's not going to happen, Playstation target is gamers, they won't release a new model just for a "niche of a niche" movie disc format....

Sony doesn't even care about discs anymore....

[Derb]

Originally Posted by PowerfulMJC

I think 4K movies are mostly going to live or die on the success of standalone 4K players. Just my opinion!

Well since almost all the new TV options are 4K or do not buy, I think UHD will be around for awhile.

[jeff_rigby]

Currently there is no economy of scale for dedicated UHD blu-ray players but the XB1 and PS4 low power hardware to support HEVC is also used for vision processing (openCL or openVX) for VR and Voice/audio. They have an economy of scale and can include hardware and software that is amortized over millions of consoles.

There is no difference in the drive cost between HD and UHD blu-ray as they use the same that a 2012 or later HD blu-ray would use. The player and drive firmware just has to follow new stricter DRM rules now needed for HD (1080P coming with ATSC 2 and the Cable TV Downloadable security scheme require a TEE and Playready 3) also.

Cost of a PS4 without UHD = cost of a PS4 with UHD support. I don't understand why no one sees this.

If the XB1 or PS4 can support one of the coming 4K media delivery schemes they can support all. I've shown that Microsoft planned to support ATSC 2 (1080P, S3D, NRT, DRM and XTV) and ATSC 3 (1080P S3D, NRT, DRM, XTV, 4k and Mobile TV to Cell phones/Cars ) provably since 2010 with their next console (Xbox 720/XB1). The FCC will likely mandate ATSC 3 support in Cell Phones for Emergency alert. With that should come wired HDMI2 and wireless connection supporting Cell to TV at bandwidth to support 4K. That's the W-MAX and W-HDMI device specific hardware bottom right in the Yukon slide. Those in turn support the bandwidth needed by wireless VR glasses which is also in the leaked Xbox 720 coming a few years after the console's release. Is no one seeing this?

[Derb]

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

Cost of a PS4 without UHD = cost of a PS4 with UHD support. I don't understand why no one sees this.

So how do you market 2 entirely different PS4's to 1 consumer?

[sonicyogurt]

Originally Posted by Derb

So how do you market 2 entirely different PS4's to 1 consumer?

Jeff is insistent that the current hardware model can play UHD BD discs. There is nothing you or anyone can say to convince him otherwise.

I mean, when the person responsible for the hardware in the PS4 said UHD BD support isn't possible -- and who on the planet is in a greater position of authority to answer the question than that? -- Jeff insists that Masayasu Ito either doesn't know what he's talking about or is lying to adhere to an NDA.

Perhaps it is technically possible, and maybe Sony will come up with a workaround that'll allow playback of UHD BD discs on the existing PS4. More remarkable things have certainly happened. Still, the word from literally the most authoritative person at Sony about this is "no", and the last update from Microsoft about supporting UHD BD dates back more than two years before the format spec was finalized. The sensible thing would be to assume the answer remains "no" until someone at Sony and/or Microsoft says it'll be "yes", and no blathering about ATSC 3, ooVoo, HTML5 <video>, Xtensa, etc. will change that.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by sonicyogurt

Jeff is insistent that the current hardware model can play UHD BD discs. There is nothing you or anyone can say to convince him otherwise.

I mean, when the person responsible for the hardware in the PS4 said UHD BD support isn't possible -- and who on the planet is in a greater position of authority to answer the question than that? -- Jeff insists that Masayasu Ito either doesn't know what he's talking about or is lying to adhere to an NDA.

Perhaps it is technically possible, and maybe Sony will come up with a workaround that'll allow playback of UHD BD discs on the existing PS4. More remarkable things have certainly happened. Still, the word from literally the most authoritative person at Sony about this is "no", and the last update from Microsoft about supporting UHD BD dates back more than two years before the format spec was finalized. The sensible thing would be to assume the answer remains "no" until someone at Sony and/or Microsoft says it'll be "yes", and no blathering about ATSC 3, ooVoo, HTML5 <video>, Xtensa, etc. will change that.

My word, you've solved for Rigby!

[NARMAK]

Why could the PS4 not technically support 4k?

The specs seem more than adequate for blu ray playback. I think it's more than a technical issue but more to do with the current lifecycle of PS4 doing well and UHD being introduced being a confusing thing that'll create noise and confusion.

Personally not bothered about 4k just yet because I'm waiting on OLED to get better and probably till another next gen console releases. However I'm just curious why PS4 is said to be incapable of 4k and UHD.

I think they could introduce a UHD movies download. Try and remember, PS4 supports 4k streaming already.

[jeff_rigby]

Originally Posted by sonicyogurt

Jeff is insistent that the current hardware model can play UHD BD discs. There is nothing you or anyone can say to convince him otherwise.

I mean, when the person responsible for the hardware in the PS4 said UHD BD support isn't possible -- and who on the planet is in a greater position of authority to answer the question than that? -- Jeff insists that Masayasu Ito either doesn't know what he's talking about or is lying to adhere to an NDA.

Perhaps it is technically possible, and maybe Sony will come up with a workaround that'll allow playback of UHD BD discs on the existing PS4. More remarkable things have certainly happened. Still, the word from literally the most authoritative person at Sony about this is "no", and the last update from Microsoft about supporting UHD BD dates back more than two years before the format spec was finalized. The sensible thing would be to assume the answer remains "no" until someone at Sony and/or Microsoft says it'll be "yes", and no blathering about ATSC 3, ooVoo, HTML5 <video>, Xtensa, etc. will change that.

When the PS4 was released, Sony employees said that the PS4 will not support DLNA, CD or MP3 and at that time I said that was not true. CD support is in the documentation, MP3 is one of the HTML5 audio standards and DLNA is required for Vidipath support which I and others knew was coming (me since 2012). Sony recently sent PDFs to the FCC showing a PS3 and PS4 with DLNA/Vidipath/Passage/Downloadable security support.

I am past the point in believing anything Sony says without proof. Point out any document stating what UHD requires that can not be supported with the PS4 or XB1 and I will acknowledge that it can't support UHD. No one has done more than say Ito says that a dedicated Hardware ASIC to support HEVC was not ready when the PS4 was released or the PS4 drive can not read 3 layers. Both points have been proven false as the XB1 does support HEVC with Xtensa accelerators and there is no such thing as a UHD drive.

For Gods sake there is a UHD test player for Game consoles. It's assumed that the Nintendo NX will not support HD or UHD blu-ray so that leaves the only two game consoles with drives as the XB1 and PS4. Both document their drives as BD-ROM with the PS4 as BD-ROM and BD-R.

The other points I am making relate to the media features that both Sony and Microsoft plan to support as they are going to be released during the early life of the consoles. It's well known that both the XB1 and PS4 are designed to be media hubs as Home servers to phones and other STBs and TVs. That no one has announced this "Officially" doesn't make it not true.

I got tired of all the ignorance spouting off that the PS4 and XB1 Can't support UHD and made an equally definite statement that it can but with proof. The proof stands until someone counters it with facts.

[MisterXDTV]

The question is not "if these consoles CAN support 4K".... The only question that matters is: "WILL they?"

And the answer seems to be: "maybe streaming services, not discs"

Nobody cares about theoretical capabilities, but only what these machines actually DO...