One, plain reason that Blu has all but won

[Prometheus59650]

Its UNFINISHED spec.

Why can't you buy VHS anymore? Or Beta? Or laserdisc?

Because they are a finished product. There's nowhere left to go. Nothing left to tweak or enhance in terms of hardware or software to create added value for the consumer, hence a reason to continue to invest They are complete.

Now, why was HD-DVD "ready" so quickly? Because it's not new. It's the maturation of DVD, essentially nothing but DVD+....and the product itself reflected that. PQ and AQ on many titles were only marginally better than DVD and some weren't even as good, pathetic as that is. Judging by early reviews even Uni's biggest title of the year to date, American Gangster, suffers the latter fate. The extended cut only on the HD side of the combo and both versions suffering major sound and video compression problems.

Sure, the spec is finished, but what do you really have to show for it? "The look and sound of perfect?" No. The idea still floated by red fans is, "Given time we would've fixed that." How, you couldn't even consistently create good combo discs. And how many layers did you think you could glue on. Were we going to end up with a disc the size of a Big Mac?

Sure HD-DVD has internet interactivity (for those who care about that) through it's basically nothing but an internet extension.

BD is different. Is it perfected yet? Of course not. But it has already often proved itself well beyond HD-DVD in terms of what it can offer in PQ and AQ. It offers far more already than the overcompressed "HD" crap I can download (and likely will be able to for the next decade assuming storage, download, and pipe traffic issues all get solved....no simple feat on any level.)

With BD 2.0 (and perhaps beyond) how you can interact with the film will go way beyond what red offers...or ever could.

What DUDers call it's weakness is it's strength. I think it's what consumers have been seeing. What it offers already as well as it's POTENTIAL in the future.

There was nowhere for "DVD+" to go. There's nowhere for BD to go but UP.

[AlexCruz]

Interesting. I think in a few years to come we will look at the movies we're buying now and think: "Wow, the quality could have been better". History repeats itself.

[quaylie]

when the prices fall sub $100 in the next two years..I don't think people would mind buying new players that enhance Blu.

[Deacon220]

It is funny that what the hd dvd fan boys touted as one of their biggest positives "the finished spec" probably went a long way to being it's demise. Finished, as in done, final, hit the wall, that's all folks. While blu-ray had overhead and room for growth unmatched by the limited potential of hd dvd. It's obvious that the hd dvd fanboys either just didn't do their homework or ignored the facts because they wanted the cheap way out.

On a side note, I went to my nearest Bestbuy tonight to buy Gone Baby Gone in blu and the only Toshiba players they had on the floor were two (2) open item A-30's.

[Prometheus59650]

Originally Posted by Deacon220

It is funny that what the hd dvd fan boys touted as one of their biggest positives "the finished spec" probably went a long way to being it's demise. Finished, as in done, final, hit the wall, that's all folks. While blu-ray had overhead and room for growth unmatched by the limited potential of hd dvd. It's obvious that the hd dvd fanboys either just didn't do their homework or ignored the facts because they wanted the cheap way out.

On a side note, I went to my nearest Bestbuy tonight to buy Gone Baby Gone in blu and the only Toshiba players they had on the floor were two (2) open item A-30's.

HD fanboys wanted cheap. That's clear. They wanted something they could call HD (barely) and not be called upon to pay a preimum for what is better tech to start with and with far greater upward mobility.

By not asking that premium they invited just the consumer base they couldn't afford along with early adopter enthusiasts: penny pinchers who were going to balk at the movie prices. Guys who were going to get their free 5 and pretty much be done.

And done they were. They weren't going to invest in it and it's obvious they didn't. Toshiba sells hardware with prices cut deeper than bone and who buys? The converted. People looking for second, third (and in one case on hidefforum SIX for "future use") because even they knew the writing was on the wall.

[u_nick]

THANK YOU!

All this time the HDDVD faithfuls have used our unfinished spec as ammunition against us, and I never quite understood how people could think of unfinished as a bad thing, along side a finished product with no room to grow a good thing.

In this day and age of PCs and their firmware updates becoming a regular part of our lives, NOTHING is ever complete. The 'complete' products will absolutely die faster.

Finally, some other people that see the light!

[Kirsty_Mc]

Originally Posted by Prometheus59650

Its UNFINISHED spec.

Why can't you buy VHS anymore? Or Beta? Or laserdisc?

Because they are a finished product. There's nowhere left to go. Nothing left to tweak or enhance in terms of hardware or software to create added value for the consumer, hence a reason to continue to invest They are complete.

Now, why was HD-DVD "ready" so quickly? Because it's not new. It's the maturation of DVD, essentially nothing but DVD+....and the product itself reflected that. PQ and AQ on many titles were only marginally better than DVD and some weren't even as good, pathetic as that is. Judging by early reviews even Uni's biggest title of the year to date, American Gangster, suffers the latter fate. The extended cut only on the HD side of the combo and both versions suffering major sound and video compression problems.

Sure, the spec is finished, but what do you really have to show for it? "The look and sound of perfect?" No. The idea still floated by red fans is, "Given time we would've fixed that." How, you couldn't even consistently create good combo discs. And how many layers did you think you could glue on. Were we going to end up with a disc the size of a Big Mac?

Sure HD-DVD has internet interactivity (for those who care about that) through it's basically nothing but an internet extension.

BD is different. Is it perfected yet? Of course not. But it has already often proved itself well beyond HD-DVD in terms of what it can offer in PQ and AQ. It offers far more already than the overcompressed "HD" crap I can download (and likely will be able to for the next decade assuming storage, download, and pipe traffic issues all get solved....no simple feat on any level.)

With BD 2.0 (and perhaps beyond) how you can interact with the film will go way beyond what red offers...or ever could.

What DUDers call it's weakness is it's strength. I think it's what consumers have been seeing. What it offers already as well as it's POTENTIAL in the future.

There was nowhere for "DVD+" to go. There's nowhere for BD to go but UP.

You are right as far as HD-DVD is concerned... but including Betamax in that list is utter Boll**ks!!!

Betamax was the superior format - Better picture, better sound and consistently ahead of VHS in every respect.

• First stereo machine,
• First HiFi machine,
• First camcorder,
• First to use new tape formulations (Super Beta HiFi)
• First to use ME tapes (ED Beta) which was broadcast quality.

If it hadn't been killed off as a consumer product by sharp practices, then It would probably have been the first digital format.

[Zipzap713]

Yeah, it's unfinished. Great. But the bigger reason that caused HD DVD's death from the start was that only Toshiba made players for it (Excluding LG/Samsung Combo Players). Lots of consumers like to have a choice of what company their products are from.

[Prometheus59650]

Originally Posted by Zipzap713

Yeah, it's unfinished. Great. But the bigger reason that caused HD DVD's death from the start was that only Toshiba made players for it (Excluding LG/Samsung Combo Players). Lots of consumers like to have a choice of what company their products are from.

That was all Toshiba. They feared BD (with good reason) They felt they needed an installed base, so their strategy was to sell FAR below cost to get it. As a result, If I, at Acme Video, wanna get into the market, I have to offer a product as good as Toshibas, but at the same price or less. I can't do it and make ANY sort of profit...probably ever. I may as well throw buckets of cash out the window than try to get into that business.

With any new hardware like that, you're going to bleed money. The matter becomes, how much and for how long. BD hardware sold at a discount initially and still does. But they lose less per unit than Toshiba. This helps invite the industry into the game (I can sell for X, lose y the 1st years and eventually profit on it) More hands in the hardware pie leads to natural innovation in manufacture. The cost of manufacture comes down naturally. Loss per unit goes down, eventually becoming profit per. Vastly different than setting the price artificially and unrealistically low to start with.

Toshiba put themselves in a position of their own design where they essentially had to compete with themselves in the hardware arena. Then they backed themselves into a corner where it wasn't cost effective for other innovators to come in, but to hold their short-term advantage they had to lower prices even more. At that point they were basically not competing with, but cannibalizing themselves.

[Chaka]

while I agree that blu-ray as a better format, I think the reason it won is a combination of studio support and some great marketing products. The average consumer doesn't know the technical differences between hd-DVD vs blu-ray.

[brent98]

Originally Posted by Chaka

while I agree that blu-ray as a better format, I think the reason it won is a combination of studio support and some great marketing products. The average consumer doesn't know the technical differences between hd-DVD vs blu-ray.

Yea, the marketing push by sony helped gain studio support, which in turn helped them gain allies like Wal-Mart, Best Buy, and Netflix. Sony has a lot going for it, a gaming division, a film company, and more brand recognition than Toshiba, they used this to their advantage.

Its good to know that Blu-Ray will continue to get better.

[xberto]

Originally Posted by Chaka

The average consumer doesn't know the technical differences between hd-DVD vs blu-ray.

That's what I need to know. It's why is started this thread: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=37538

[Marquoz]

What I enjoyed reading, with everybody going on about 1.1 vs 2.0 and how the sky is falling and Sony will be sued, and all the other FUD...

According to thelookandsoundofperfect only 30% of HD DVD users even connected to the servers to use the internet features anyway. 30%. So 700,000 (of the million players or whatever the number is) either don't care, don't know, or just don't use the ethernet adapter on the back of their HD DVD player.

But oh noes, Sony didn't have it, so it's God's gift to earth!

[TheRealBob]

I completely reject the premise of this thread.

While a spec that's growing and can adapt to change is an advantage, I do not think that was the issue here. The issue was quality, pure and simple. While it may not have won the day in the VHS vs. Beta days, this is a war that was fought mostly among early-adopter home theater types. VHS would have been eaten alive in that arena, and HD DVD suffered the expected fate.

And, for the millionth time, it's incorrect to simply say Beta was superior to VHS. Beta was superior in most ways, but in a way that really counted -- recording time -- it was inferior. Blu-ray was superior to HD DVD in both recording time and potential picture quality.

[dakota81]

Originally Posted by Prometheus59650

Its UNFINISHED spec.

The spec is finished.

The implementation of the spec isn't.

I really don't see where this argument is going. Profile 2.0 was defined long ago. And there never will be another spec (we're ignoring the audio only profile 3.0). I guess you could call 3D a nw profile, but that'll probably be considered an independent implantation, just uses the same media.

The "UNFINISHED spec", as you refer to it, exists only because it was far too expensive for a CE company not poised to receive big royalty checks from a victory, to develop, build, and support a full featured player in 2006. There is a reason why the only non-Toshiba designed HD DVD player lacked all interactive features.

[miokti]

I agree with the OP. It's about time someone posted that HD-DVD is merely the highest that DVD can go. It's just a glorified DVD. Blu-ray on the other hand, is the next evolutionary stage of Home Video Entertainment.

[richard lichtenfelt]

Special features are for people with special needs.

[LeoneFan]

The only reason the DUDsters made such a big deal about profile 2.0 is because that's the only thing they had left to justify their pathetic format. I can't believe some people would actually prefer a stupid gimmick like web connectivity over more capacity, more bandwidth, and scratch proof discs.

[Steelmaker]

While I agree with the OP's comments about blu ray being an unfinished product and it being an advantage. I disagree that that is the actual reason blu ray has won. You can make a case for several reasons why blu ray has won but if you have to choose just one, just one reason blu has won, it has to be PS3. The Trojan Horse effect has gotten more blu ray players into more homes quicker than stand alone HD-DVD players could hope for! It's a brilliant strategy and it just so happens that the PS3 is still considered by many as the best blu ray player avaliable. PS3 buyers get a great blu ray player and blu ray buyers get a great games machine. It's brilliant!