Front 3 channels Bi-Wired, feedback please!

[solarrdadd]

I'm sure this has been done before but, like all things it's getting done again! Over the last year I have been reading in the various forums about bi-wiring speakers (please, I am NOT talking about bi-amping!) and it seems that most people are against it. I am trying to get the best out of what I have and I liked the idea of bi-wiring my front 3 channels. After lots of research and emails with vendors I went with Calabrine.com and used their "Quadio Ultra Bi-Wire Pair Speaker Cables" 1pair for the front l & r and a single cable for the center all 3m long. I was using monster ultra 1000 THX series cable before this and they were well made beefy cables and I loved them. Well guess what, once I installed the new bi-wire cables and fired the system up I began to hear things in sound effects and music that I didn't hear before,. I am talking about blu-ray disc that i have owned and listened to many times. I could hear more things from the high freq's and the low freq's were more tight and focused. here is some of the reference materials I used:

2008 DTS HD Demo disc given out at CES 2008: selection "Chieli Minnucci/Daybreak" DTS-MA-HD 96/24. 5.1

Dave Matthews & Tim Reynolds: live at Radio City DTHD 96/24 5.1 or
48/24 PCM Stereo

Sunshine DTS-MA-HD 5.1

Master & Commander DTS-MA-HD 5.1

The Punisher War Zone DTS-MA-HD 7.1

Baraka DTS-MA-HD 96/24

AKIRA DTHD 192/24

Again, I own all of these and the CES demo disc selection listed i'm surprised i haven't worn that thing out as much as I listen to it. I'd like to hear from the folks who are for it because they either believe in it's potential or they have set it up and experienced it like I have. of course I want to hear from those who think it was a waste of time and money. I am also curious if the folks who are against it have ever done the taste test of listening to something with normal wiring and then the same thing with the only change being in the cables, nothing else. I'm here to tell you that it was one of the best things I have done for my system in years. responses, Please & Thank You. Oh yeah, I updated my gallery to reflect this!

[sandman6662]

Well I'm on you'r side , in either case Bi-Wring or Bi-Amping, as for my self I went with Bi-Amping and then I put on new Monster Z2R Refference Speaker cables and I can tell you what a difference, it was a awesome upgrade, the music was so detailed and the bass was deeper and tighter than before, at 1st I thought it was just me , but when my wife confrimed that it sounded better I was convinced , as she really does'nt care about it , as also When I added the Monster Zbass Z100 Refference Subwoofer cable , this was a great improvement also , I have then upgraded all of My cables to the Monster Z-Series Refferce cables, Speaker, Audio RCA Interconnects , Digital Coax,S-VHS, And Also the Monster Powerline 300/200 IEC Power cords, as with all things they call tweeks it's how it make you feel too, this was my goal to have the best refference system at a minmal cost, Very happy and content,, Hope this helps you justify you'r upgrade,,,,Sandman

[solarrdadd]

thanks sandman, i did want to stick with monster but after reading so much negative post about bi-wiring and not getting any response from monster about that particular cable product, I went with another brand. while i'm sure it's not as profound a difference as you hear with bi-amping i and my girls do hear a noticable difference in the sound from things we listen to all the time without changing any internal settings. I could have bi-amped my front two but i didn't want to give up my 2 surround back channels for it and my goal would have been to do all 3 front channels and my receiver wouldn't support that. so, until maybe over the next two years I can swing a nice 10 channel amp that will allow me to bi-amp all 3 front channels and still keep my 7.1 the bi-wiring of my front three will have to do. and i have no regrets either. good to know i'm not in this thing alone.

[sandman6662]

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

thanks sandman, i did want to stick with monster but after reading so much negative post about bi-wiring and not getting any response from monster about that particular cable product, I went with another brand. while i'm sure it's not as profound a difference as you hear with bi-amping i and my girls do hear a noticable difference in the sound from things we listen to all the time without changing any internal settings. I could have bi-amped my front two but i didn't want to give up my 2 surround back channels for it and my goal would have been to do all 3 front channels and my receiver wouldn't support that. so, until maybe over the next two years I can swing a nice 10 channel amp that will allow me to bi-amp all 3 front channels and still keep my 7.1 the bi-wiring of my front three will have to do. and i have no regrets either. good to know i'm not in this thing alone.

Actually your not alone at all, Alot of guys setups and post on heres are doing , Bi-Wiring or Bi-Amping, either way its a big improvement, which ever road you choose, Just a matter of choice, my self I tried it because everyone else said it was an improvement, I Have had Mono block amps for all speakers in the past also, but have never tried either till now I have the Klipsch RF-82's for fronts , Now I did not Bi-Amp my center channel or Surrounds, As for me I did the front L&R due to Music 1st and Movies 2nd, & I'm happy, Now I only have a 5.1 setup as no plans for 7.1 due to not much out there in that format yet, someday down the road maybe, I have been looking at an out board 5 channel Amp ,the Marantz MM-9000 to add on to my pre outs, do I really need it, no, but want to try it yes, dont know if it will be a difference,lol But really look on the pics of the galleries and you'll see alot of Ni-Wire & Bi-Amped systems,,also check the AVS site & Audiogon site , theyall do it too.....have a good one and who cars what other say or think you just have to be happy ....

[mdabb]

I am neither for or against bi-wiring but definitely all that matters is how it effects what we hear on an individual basis. Not everyone is going to have the same results do to all the possible variables and............ one thing to keep in mind: the difference you hear could also be attributed to the fact you are now using different cables. Just a thought !!! However I'm not trying to dismiss the possibility the changes are related to bi-wiring.

I know most people might not agree with me on the whole "speaker cables sounding different from one another", but I noticed it and did not hear any difference when experimenting with bi-wiring.

Anyhow, enjoy the new found upgrade of sound quality !!!

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by mdabb

I am neither for or against bi-wiring but definitely all that matters is how it effects what we hear on an individual basis. Not everyone is going to have the same results do to all the possible variables and............ one thing to keep in mind: the difference you hear could also be attributed to the fact you are now using different cables. Just a thought !!! However I'm not trying to dismiss the possibility the changes are related to bi-wiring.

I know most people might not agree with me on the whole "speaker cables sounding different from one another", but I noticed it and did not hear any difference when experimenting with bi-wiring.

Anyhow, enjoy the new found upgrade of sound quality !!!

I agree. People have to distinguish between bi-wiring and bi-amping. I have over 15 years of experience with bi-wiring and bi-amping. I have tried them all. In my opinion, bi-wiring has no effect or such a small effect that you can hardly hear and is not worth the effort.

My Definitive Technology super towers allow for tri-amping. They have built-in subwoofers with their own 300 watt RMS amplifiers. You can bypass the built-in amplifiers. The sub, midrange, and the tweeters have their own external speaker inputs. I have tried mono-amping, bi-amping, and tri-amping. Bi-amping and tri-amping give you the most benefit. However, it is not really night and day to justify the additional cost of a two-channel amplifier, particularly if you already feed them with a single powerful and high quality amplifier.

Of course, if you have a 7.1 receiver or amplifier and use only a 5.1 setup, it is definitely worth using the two rear channels for bi-amping.

[HAMP]

What is the differnce between bi-amp & bi-wire?
I thought they were the same.

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by HAMP

What is the differnce between bi-amp & bi-wire?
I thought they were the same.

biamp is feeding two seperate channels into your seperated speaker one channel goes to the high freq's and one channel goes to the low freq's with the power of the amp/receiver (it's rating) into each section as needed.
biwiring is coming from one channel, going out to the seperated speaker and landing four conductors two to the high freq's and two to the low freq's with only the power from the on amp/receiver output. mind you your speaker must support biwire/biamp configurations (it should have 4 terminals on it with a bridge/jumper that gets removed) your receiver also must support biamping where as biwiring only requires the speaker to support it. hope that helps.

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

biamp is feeding two seperate channels into your seperated speaker one channel goes to the high freq's and one channel goes to the low freq's with the power of the amp/receiver (it's rating) into each section as needed.
biwiring is coming from one channel, going out to the seperated speaker and landing four conductors two to the high freq's and two to the low freq's with only the power from the on amp/receiver output. mind you your speaker must support biwire/biamp configurations (it should have 4 terminals on it with a bridge/jumper that gets removed) your receiver also must support biamping where as biwiring only requires the speaker to support it. hope that helps.

I guess I did know what Bi-amp is, but I guess the Bi-wiring has/had me confused then.

Are you saying 2 wires from the receiver split out to four, that goes into the speaker(when you remove the connector)?

[liquidice]

call me stupid on this too, but if you bi-wire, aren't you basically just doing the exact same thing as what the jumper did? I can't find the logic in bi-wiring, but bi-amping seems to make more sense.

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by HAMP

I guess I did know what Bi-amp is, but I guess the Bi-wiring has/had me confused then.

Are you saying 2 wires from the receiver split out to four, that goes into the speaker(when you remove the connector)?

a cable for biwiring will be a standard 2x4 configuration. lets say your wiring your center channel as such. the end of the cable that connects to your receiver/amp will have 2 connectors (with 2 conductors in each connector) + -, that will connect into your center channel speaker out terminals. the other end of the cable has 4 connectors 2+, 2- your speaker that has 4 teminals on it will have a solid metal bridge (jumper) between + + , --, remove those jumpers there will be two. one pair of black & red cables goes into the top section and the other pair goes into the bottom pair. one pair is for the tweeter/midrange section and the other pair is for the woofer section. that is how you biwire your speakers. some people don't believe biwiring does anything some do and i'm one of the people who believes it has made a difference in what i hear. it's really an individual thing!

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

a cable for biwiring will be a standard 2x4 configuration. lets say your wiring your center channel as such. the end of the cable that connects to your receiver/amp will have 2 connectors (with 2 conductors in each connector) + -, that will connect into your center channel speaker out terminals. the other end of the cable has 4 connectors 2+, 2- your speaker that has 4 teminals on it will have a solid metal bridge (jumper) between + + , --, remove those jumpers there will be two. one pair of black & red cables goes into the top section and the other pair goes into the bottom pair. one pair is for the tweeter/midrange section and the other pair is for the woofer section. that is how you biwire your speakers. some people don't believe biwiring does anything some do and i'm one of the people who believes it has made a difference in what i hear. it's really an individual thing!

+1. Remember as well that just because your AVR is capable of bi-wiring and/or bi-amping, that does not mean your AVR has the internal quality of componants to deal accurately with either of those methods. Additionally, and IMHO, speaker cabling has a lot do with this as well. It's a combination of several variables that will either bring success or no difference at all. Of the two methods, bi-amping will normally yield the best results. Just my 2 cents!

John

[rded]

Originally Posted by HAMP

I guess I did know what Bi-amp is, but I guess the Bi-wiring has/had me confused then.

Are you saying 2 wires from the receiver split out to four, that goes into the speaker(when you remove the connector)?

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by liquidice

call me stupid on this too, but if you bi-wire, aren't you basically just doing the exact same thing as what the jumper did? I can't find the logic in bi-wiring, but bi-amping seems to make more sense.

Here is some of the tech babble on in terms even I understand:

- reduces low frequency's influence over high frequency's when 4 terminal speakers are in the standard bridged configuration
- split speaker crossover to send power directly to the tweeter/midrange section and to the woofer section independant of each other
- improves sound detail, fullness and accuracy

Just a little bit of something I read based on the study of bi-wiring. I'm not saying it's true but, I will say that since I installed my bi-wires in my front 3 channels, everything is a lot cleaner and more focused. I hear a lot more from each frequency and I say this from listening to blu-ray discs that I own and have watched/listened to many times; but that's just me (and a small band of others!)

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by rded

Yes I am, Note the end with the 2 terminals, that end goes to the receiver/amp lets say in the Front Left speaker out terminals + -, then the end with the 4 terminals goes into the 4 terminal speaker with the bridges removed. check the #14 reply of mine in this thread for some detailed info.

[HAMP]

Your saying with this type of wire hooked up, If I have the connector ready and available and I go back and forth with taking them off and putting them back on I will hear a difference immediately.


I know there will not be any damage with removing and replacing the connectors on the speakers, I am just wondering if I will hear an instance difference?

The wire’s cost a lot of money for just testing a theory and it doesn’t make a bit of sound distinction.

[lucv13]

Originally Posted by HAMP

Your saying with this type of wire hooked up, If I have the connector ready and available and I go back and forth with taking them off and putting them back on I will hear a difference immediately.


I know there will not be any damage with removing and replacing the connectors on the speakers, I am just wondering if I will hear an instance difference?

The wire’s cost a lot of money for just testing a theory and it doesn’t make a bit of sound distinction.

Before you go out and spend a pile of money on custom cables just try it out with a couple of length of speaker wire - twist the + and - at one end and insert in the appropriate connections of your receiver and speakers. I just made my own biwires with some 14/4 cabling buddy had in his machine shop added some banana plugs. Did I find any significant difference? I'd like to say yes but I really don't think so.

14/4 cabling shown on the right

[liquidice]

Originally Posted by lucv13

Did I find any significant difference? I'd like to say yes but I really don't think so.

your obviously messing around with some great equipment based on your signiture, so if you didn't hear much of an improvement with what you've got, I wouldn't think anyone with anything less would either. Then again, perhaps your speakers and amp are SO good, that a lesser quality speaker would see an improvement?.....hmmmm...

[lucv13]

I'll tell you what did make a noticeable difference - was adding the Rotel amp to my front speakers - that just cleaned up the front soundstage like night and day.

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by liquidice

your obviously messing around with some great equipment based on your signiture, so if you didn't hear much of an improvement with what you've got, I wouldn't think anyone with anything less would either. Then again, perhaps your speakers and amp are SO good, that a lesser quality speaker would see an improvement?.....hmmmm...

I'm A little confused myself ! All in all I'm glad I went the amp route , With my surr. bi-amped becuase I cannot bi-amp my fronts !!!