5:1 Analogue Audio Output

[denzil]

Confusion reigns not only with me but with many sales reps and even Sony help desk. I want to go out from a BluRay player which of course will have on-board Dolby Digital Plus, DolbyTrueHD and DTS HD processors. From the 5:1 analogue output I'll go into my non HDMI but excellent Denon receiver. Same as I do for SACD. So: What is the 5:! analogue out? Toshiba (HD) tell me it is full true uncompressed best possible audio same as would be delivered by the HDMI source. Sony tell me it is not but just a modest version of the older Dolby Digital. They tell me the internal DA converters are not good enough to produce top sound via the analogue path. Yet their specs sheets say they have multiple DA converters on board.
I really don't believe they know their product. Does anybody on the forum understand the truth. Can 5:! analogue output from any manufacturers box give me the proper lossless Tru HD sound? or is it a diminished form of compromise?
I'm new to BlueRay having just swung from HD. I have not yet decided on brand or model. Of course I'd want to go with the best picture result but I'd be very influenced by the brand and model that could resolve my sound conundrum. Does it vary between manufacturers? Doe anybody really know. I thank you
Denzil

[Stundra]

How about Denonlink?

[crackinhedz]

Have an old school receiver and want Lossless audio??

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by denzil

Confusion reigns not only with me but with many sales reps ... Does anybody on the forum understand the truth. Can 5:! analogue output from any manufacturers box give me the proper lossless Tru HD sound? or is it a diminished form of compromise?...I have not yet decided on brand or model. ... I thank you
Denzil

This is my first post to this forum and just joined after browsing blu-ray.com From my experience, Denzil, you can't always rely on sales reps and or help desks. Your posting in this forum was a step in the right direction toward getting better information about the BD players, what they can and cannot do. I own a Sony BDP-S301, so I can only answer some of your questions based on my experience with this player. It does indeed have 5.1 analog outputs. It certainly can decode the lossy formats of DTS, Dolby Digital, and Dolby Digital Plus. It does not decode Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD both of which are lossless formats. It cannot even send these lossless formats to a receiver through an HDMI connection. So knowing this why did I even bother to buy this player? Besides its low cost (ca. $399), it was because of the 5.1 analog outputs. My receiver is about 3 years old and lacks HDMI connectivity. It does however have 5.1 analog inputs. Many Blu-ray movies have LPCM 5.1 tracks (a few even have 7.1 LPCM). LPCM is uncompressed audio, and in theory identical to decoded D-TrueHD or DTS-HD. Thus LPCM is lossless. So if you setup the Sony BDP-S301 correctly, you can get uncompressed LPCM 5.1 (or 7.1 downmixed to 5.1) by connecting the 5.1 analog outputs to the 5.1 analog inputs of a receiver. Believe me LPCM 5.1 is no modest version of older Dolby Digital. Whoever told you that, does not know the truth nor know what he/she is talking about. LPCM is uncompressed while Older DD or DTS is compressed thus totally different formats. LPCM 5.1 is really pristine audio. So you should be able to hook up any BD player that has 5.1 to 7.1 analog outputs to a receiver having 5.1 to 7.1 analog inputs. And, if you find a player that decodes D-THD or DTS-HD and has at least 5.1 audio output, then you will be getting lossless audio without using an HDMI connection. However, beware going this route. There are very few HT receivers out there that do bass management or DSP from analog inputs. The Sony BDP-S301 does have limited bass management through the speaker setup menu on the player. You can choose which speakers you have and set them to large or small. My receiver does allow setting the channel level, speaker size (large/small), and crossover frequency from analog inputs and that's all. It totally bypasses DSP. As far as I am concerned, I am glad of it. With an HDMI connection, some receivers can do bass managment and DSP as well as allowing the receiver to decode the lossless formats if it has that capability. I am extremely pleased with the lossless LPCM 5.1 sound that I get by using the 5.1 analog output from by BD player. It absolutely blows away the older DD and DTS formats. The sound quality is astonishingly different, more real, more depth, more clarity, and distinctly clear dialog from the center channel.

[moviefan]

Hey wrojt....
How about a paragraph break once in a while ... my eyes hurt?

Welcome to the forum!

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by moviefan

Hey wrojt....
How about a paragraph break once in a while ... my eyes hurt?

Welcome to the forum!

Thanks. Sorry about giving anyone sore eyes. I see now that was a bit trying on my eyes too.

I rarely write so much at once. If I do, I will make it easier on one's eyes. -rw

[Flomaster]

so to sum it up:

an HDMI cable MUST BE USED with TRUE HD and DTS-MA

LPCM just as good if not better can be passed lossless via 5.1 analog

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by Flomaster

so to sum it up:

an HDMI cable MUST BE USED with TRUE HD and DTS-MA

LPCM just as good if not better can be passed lossless via 5.1 analog

No, you do not have to use HDMI for THD or DTS-HD HR or MA if your BD player decodes the codecs internally. If you player does this, it can then pass the lossless soundrack decoded as LPCM via your 5.1 or 7.1 analogue out. Right now, there are several players that internally decode TrueHD. There are none out at this point that will decode DTS-HD MA internally although these are coming in the near future (Denon's 3800 and Panasonics DMP BD50). The Panny DMP-BD10 will also internally decode DTS-HD HR, but there aren't too many BD's out there using this (mainly early Lionsgate releases).

The second part of your summation is correct.

[denzil]

Thanks Brain Flo and Rwo
It would seem from what you guys say then that any BR player with internal sound decoding will produce the lossless better True and Digi Plus sound at the 5:1 analogue terminals. Same as via HDMI. With some current reservations on DTS. I would then presume that all players with this set up would not be outputting an inferior compromised signal. Why then would the idiots at Sony and the so called experts tell me that this is NOT the case. That Dolby Digi Plus and True are only available through HDMI? What of the other brands? Can anyone out there reassure me that Samsung and Panasonic Blue Ray Players 5:1 outputs give the true lossless fab sound (same as HDMI) Or perhaps just lower cheaper models dont do it.. It seems that if decoders are on board and 5:1 analogue out is available on the player then the sound should be of a standard DA converted output from those decoders. Right?
thanks all. Denzil

[crackinhedz]

Originally Posted by crackinhedz

Have an old school receiver and want Lossless audio??

[denzil]

Thanks Crackinhedz The Josh Zyber sound post is very informative. I am advanced now..BUT I still need to know if ALL 5:1 analogue outputs on all machines deliver this top sound. bear in mind that it is the Sony reps who've told me it does NOT. I'm doubting their opinion.It would seem stupid if I did NOT buy the Sony 500 unit because I've been misinformed by Sony that the 5:1 audio out is NOT lossless True and or HD sound and that this can only be available through HDMI.
Sorry to be so pedantic but there are so many sales and tech people out there who really do not know and make up an assumption which is totally based on ignorance.
denzil

[crackinhedz]

Originally Posted by denzil

BUT I still need to know if ALL 5:1 analogue outputs on all machines deliver this top sound.

I have this little hobby for collecting user manuals...and every BD user manual I have states the players can output Lossless via Multich Analog, as long as it can be decoded inside the player.

The Sony BDP-S500 can internally decode Dolby TrueHD...but not Dts-HD Master. So through the analogs you can hear TrueHD and Uncompressed PCM.

[denzil]

Thanks Crackinheads.I can understand that DTS decoding is not available on many units..Certainly not more than CORE in some. But what about the other formats IF they are used on BluRay discs..It seems that the most common are Dolby True HD and Dolby Digital Plus. Does BlueRay use both? Are both available from the 5:1 analogue outputs? Follows is a copy of some specs from a Sony 500 info sheet. It;s not clear on what exits from the Analogue 5:1 outputs.
thanks again Denzil

Dolby® Digital Plus decoding capability

Dolby Digital Plus is Dolby's next-generation audio technology that can offer up to 7.1 channels of surround sound. Dolby Digital Plus also offers a higher-quality experience than the Dolby Digital soundtrack you are used to on a standard DVD.
Dolby® TrueHD, dts®-HD Bitstream out over HDMI™

The future of surround sound arrives with Blu-ray Disc technology. With the BDP-S500, you can enjoy incredible new audio codecs from both Dolby Laboratories and Digital Theater Systems (dts). Simply by connecting your Blu-ray Disc player to the HDMI connection on your A/V Receiver, the BDP-S500 can either output or internally decode Dolby TrueHD & dts-HD. - Dolby TrueHD delivers lossless studio master quality audio designed specifically for high definition entertainment like Blu-ray Disc movies. An incredible sound stage, dynamic range and a stellar Home Theater experience await you with Dolby TrueHD. - dts-HD gives you sound quality that matches the crystal clear image of Blu-ray Disc media. With up to 7.1 channels of surround sound and audio that is indistinguishable form the original studio version, dts-HD promises you an extraordinary surround experience.[/I][/I][/I]

[crackinhedz]

Originally Posted by denzil

the BDP-S500 can either output or internally decode Dolby TrueHD

[SNAP]

Originally Posted by crackinhedz

I have this little hobby for collecting user manuals...and every BD user manual I have states the players can output Lossless via Multich Analog, as long as it can be decoded inside the player.

The Sony BDP-S500 can internally decode Dolby TrueHD...but not Dts-HD Master. So through the analogs you can hear TrueHD and Uncompressed PCM.

I have the Sony 300 using HDMI.....what audio codecs do I actually get?

[crackinhedz]

Originally Posted by SNAP

I have the Sony 300 using HDMI.....what audio codecs do I actually get?

You would get the 'Uncompressed PCM' tracks...which are found on many Blurays.

[SNAP]

Thanks for the list Crack.......I noticed that a lot of BluDiscs are coming out in DTSHD-MA, all the Die Hrads, Rocky.ect. Since the 300 doesnt decode these what audio am I getting??.........Sorry if I sound ignorant.

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by SNAP

Thanks for the list Crack.......I noticed that a lot of BluDiscs are coming out in DTSHD-MA, all the Die Hrads, Rocky.ect. Since the 300 doesnt decode these what audio am I getting??.........Sorry if I sound ignorant.

You are getting DTS 1.5 Mbps core-- the same DTS we've been getting for years on DVD (although most DVD DTS tracks are not maxed out on bitrate-- the majority of DVD DTS tracks are encoded at 768 Kbps or somesuch, with a limited number encoded at 1.5 Mbps). The DTS tracks can still be excellent, but they are short of the ultimate glory that is lossless.

[w3syt]

I have never been able to fire my powered subwoofer from the 6 cable 5.1 setup. I suspect it may be that the Sony 300 output is just too low to turn it on. On the other hand, I find it most unusual when you look at the illustrated Sony setup screen for 5.1 speakers , there is no mention of subwoofers and the illustrated subwoofer box never "lights up".
Crutchfield tech says I should use Toslink. I can not use HDMI because it dead ends at my Samsung built in toy speakers. My Onkyo has no HDMI. An older SD test disk sounds terrific in surround sound, except for no sub. Raising Onkyo multi mode sub out to max does nothing.

[gearyt]

Sure, now I'm confused.... Crack... Can you get higher than DD over TosLink?
I know it will stream PCM, But I thought there was a bandwidth issue