Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW]

Originally Posted by Pondosinatra

Star Wars movies ranked...

https://collider.com/star-wars-movie...worst-to-best/

...and discuss.

well that was strange
and the commentary often didn't make a lot of sense

[hanshotfirst1138]

Originally Posted by drush9999

It's on MySpleen, but if you're not a member you're out of luck, and I have no invitations left

In other words, I'm SOL .

[WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW]

Originally Posted by Jay G.

I cited the evidence that suggest the most likely scenario: that making Vader Luke's father was conceived of and developed during the writing of ESB.

Again, if Lucas had planned for Vader to be Luke's father way back during Star Wars, why would he write an initial treatment for ESB, and have Leigh Brackett write a script, that had Father Skywalker as a completely different character?

The fact that A.G. said he was filled in on stuff nobody else was, the way A.G. played that scene and looked so ultra sketchy when he said that line, the sorts of stuff Lucas was reading and his own claims (although believe them or not) make me think he probably had such a possibility floating in and out of his head back during the making of Star Wars already.

Your version of events makes no sense, is based on no evidence other than Lucas's claims long after the fact, and contrary to the actual evidence we have.

well it fits perfectly with the way A.G. acted out that one scene

Like, you can't even back up your claim that Alec Guinness knew with an actual quote. You know, something relevant.

he never got into specifics, he was told stuff in confidence and said he kept his words and just left it very general

it certainly at least makes it reasonably possible he was told or at least told it was maybe some possibility or maybe heard Lucas toss out a bunch of stuff and that concept was brushed over for a minute at one point and A.G. decided to go with it, who knows for sure, but it would certainly explain the otherwise odd way he acted that one scene

So you're admitting he lied about that, but you're justifying his lie because he had personal reasons to. Now that we've established that Lucas will lie about his plans for Star Wars for personal reasons, isn't it likely he's lied about other parts of Star Wars too?

well these things are in a different context so it doesn't necessarily follow in other scenarios that are totally different but it is possible

but one should then also note some stuff Kasdan and others said about TFA which has been flat out contradicted or has to be taken with a somewhat generous helping of from a certain point of view so it's not like your other guy's have never done the same so....

[WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW]

Originally Posted by Jay G.

I don't know what you're talking about here, since neither I nor anyone else I've seen has suggested the films were made "only the fly." Do you mean improvised on set?

Certainly there's a middle ground between "planned all 6, 9, 12 films in advance," and "it was all on the fly," yes?

Lucas started with a mess of ideas and an near incoherent story treatment. Then, in an attempt to get more structure, he literally copied a summary of The Hidden Fortress from a book, changing the setting, and character and place names. From there he made another attempt at an original story, iterated and refined over several drafts, and hired others to polish the dialogue.

In terms of "plans," I don't think Lucas had much set in stone for any future sequels while making Star Wars, and certainly not the "Vader is Luke's father" twist. He did, at the least, think that sequels were possible. He held onto the sequel rights after all, something that was extremely rare. He kept the Emperor off-screen. He kept Vader alive at the climax, limping away in his tie fighter. He commissioned Alan Dean Foster to write Splinter in the Mind's Eye, with an eye to using it as a script for a cheap sequel.

And certainly, during the development of ESB, Lucas came up with the backstory for Vader that he felt was rich enough to deserve its own trilogy of films, hence why Star Wars Chapter/Episode 2 became Episode V, and the original Star Wars was retroactively retitled Episode IV.

except even before ESB came out we already were all talking about prequel-type stuff like Obi-wan vs. Vader lava fight and the clone wars and so on and Lucas already had notes with various chapters listed, he one giant story that was a bit of a mess and vastly too long and had to cut it down and decided to focus on a middle part that seemed most likely to do well and most able to stand alone as a single movie if it had too

he didn't suddenly just realize he could do more and that Star Wars was really #4 half-way into starting ESB even if the early stuff wasn't too detailed before (and during Star Wars the sequels stuff was really vague)

he also had 12 labels written down at first although 3 were said to be somewhat more tangents and ideas about getting deeply into the force and more side films in a way and the main core quickly became 9

one can see a good helping of some of the various little bits of 7-9 original thoughts in the 7-9 we got although other aspects not at all

stuff we didn't get at all were one part of the 7-9 ideas from late in the game ROTJ times where one major focus was gonna be on the establishment of the New Republic and the struggles and how do you set up a new government and bring things under stable control without getting sucked down the path of acting too much like a dictator yourself as you try to create stability and was gonna have some struggles of Luke and Leia having to deal and fight off bad political temptations to avoid becoming Emperors of a sort themselves or more accidentally falling into that out of the best of intentions and major adversity to fend off.

but between all the flack a certain crowd tossed onto 'boring' politics of the prequels he drifted away from getting too much into that and also since even more time had passed than he had originally intended for 7-9 to be made it seemed better to more strongly move it on to more focus on newer characters and getting a little later on the timeline

and Disney and all the others there treated anything about that sort of stuff as being 'boring' and a no go anyway, heck they never even showed us but like 10 seconds of the New Republic government before it got blown up, although some books did get into a bit of the New Republic goverment and stuff before TFA

but some of the 7-9 stuff def echoes some of the little tidbits dropped about 7-9 in the ESB days and then again in the prequel days and somewhat later, you can see what seems to be some hints of rough ideas they had in ESB but that got altered and compressed when he burned out and wanted to just be done with it all as he got into ROTJ combined with some further work he seems to have done at some point much later on that had some more on very special "other" from the back of beyond and so on

between some of the tiny tidbits from long ago, some stuff in the clone wars tv CGI series and the place TLJ had left things at you could actually think about it all and realize that Rey was gonna be the other half of a split Skywalker vergence (I did see a small number of other people realize this either right after or a year or so after TLJ came out, although none of the major players in SW boards or speculation seemed to realize and Lucasfilm deleted any such posts on their pages as soon as they were posted, which I took as a hint to keep shhhhh about it so I kept it mum after that.)

[WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW]

Originally Posted by koberulz

I don't believe anyone has any invitations left, do they? MS seems to have closed up shop unfortunately.

It's a pain in the ass not only for fan edits, but also when I want to watch things that just aren't available here at all (Run is a Hulu exclusive and Hulu isn't a thing here, for example). Not sure if MS dabbles in that sort of thing or not, though.

yeah it's a shame

[Zillamon51]

Are the movie and special features BDs in the Skywalker Saga UHD set, the same as the ones in this set? Does the UHD Saga set make this set redundant?

[koberulz]

I believe there is almost zero overlap in bonus features.

[Mikezilla3k]

Originally Posted by Zillamon51

Are the movie and special features BDs in the Skywalker Saga UHD set, the same as the ones in this set? Does the UHD Saga set make this set redundant?

No, the Blu-Rays in the 4Ks use the 4K remaster.

Improvement on II and III. Not so good on the other films.

[Jay G.]

Originally Posted by WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW

The fact that A.G. said he was filled in on stuff nobody else was, the way A.G. played that scene and looked so ultra sketchy when he said that line, the sorts of stuff Lucas was reading and his own claims (although believe them or not)

None of that is actually evidence.

Mark Hamill said Lucas filled him in on Luke's family backstory on the set of Star Wars too, except that what he was told turned out to be "completely different" to what was later revealed in the films:

Mark Hamill remembers:
"I did ask what happened to my parents during Star Wars. If I remember, he gave me a really detailed answer which turned out to be completely different when I got the Empire script...

Alec Guinness could've been told the same completely different stuff.

And your reading of the scene is your own subjective opinion of that scene, and is colored by the later films. If Father Skywalker had appeared in later films, living or dead, as separate from Vader, or even just consitently described as separate from Vader there's nothing in that scene in Star Wars that would've contradicted that development.

The scene plays fine as Obi-Wan being completely honest, but hesitant. Even if one were to accept as fact that he's definitely hiding something about the backstory in that scene though, it doesn't necessarily follow that the hidden info is that Vader is Luke's father. Maybe Obi-Wan's hiding the fact that Luke's father was killed by a Chicken-Duck-Woman thing instead.

"BUSHES OF LOVE" -- Extended Lyric Video - YouTube

And you've already acknowledged that Lucas will lie when it suits his personal purposes, so his after-the-fact statements can't be taken at face value. There needs to be some third-party confirmation, and you repeatedly fail to provide any.

Originally Posted by WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW

..except even before ESB came out we already were all talking about prequel-type stuff like Obi-wan vs. Vader lava fight and the clone wars and so on...

The Clone Wars were literally mentioned in Star Wars, so I don't know why you think that's evidence of any "secret" history already planned out.

And the Obi-Wan vs Vader lava fight was revealed after Star Wars came out, in supplementary material. It's not evidence of anything planned before or during the making of Star Wars.

From

Author Leigh Brackett has been approached with the task of writing the screenplay for the big-budgeted sequel. One of the key elements in the second script may be the origin of the Dark Lord, Darth Vader. One version of his life being considered for the forthcoming production will reveal a young, handsome Darth turning rogue Jedi, killing Luke Skywalker's father and being pushed into a pool of molten lava by avenging angel Ben Kenobi. Darth is so badly scarred that he dons his black armor forever. It serves as a combination exoskeleton and walking iron lung. The second version portrays Darth as being, in reality, Luke Skywalker's father. After a psychological trauma, Luke's father succumbs to the darker nature of The Force and allows all that is good within him to die. And rising from the ashes of his soul is Darth, the arch-foe of all that is righteous. Whatever Vader's fate in the as-yet-embryonic script, the film began pre-production in London in January.”

Note that the lava fight was conceived of before making Vader Luke's father was. Even if Lucas had an idea during Star Wars that Obi-Wan had wounded Vader in a lava fight, it doesn't necessarily follow that Vader was Luke's father at this point. Again your knowledge of later developments is causing you to conflate plot points that weren't necessarily originally connected and intertwined.

Originally Posted by WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW

... and Lucas already had notes with various chapters listed, he one giant story that was a bit of a mess and vastly too long and had to cut it down and decided to focus on a middle part...

No, this is a lie that Lucas later created. There's no evidence of this, especially in the earlier treatments and drafts for Star Wars. Making Star Wars a section of the "middle part" of a larger story didn't happen until Lucas was developing ESB with other writers, hence why the ESB drafts shifted from being titled Chapter/Episode 2 to Episode V.

I've shown the evidence for this, and again, you don't have any actual evidence to support your claims.

The rest of your posts is just rambling about stuff not pertinent to the discussion at hand: Whether Lucas had the larger story all planned out before/during the making of Star Wars, and specifically the plot point about Vader being Luke's father. What happened with the prequels and sequel trilogy doesn't matter, since I've already acknowledged that during the development of ESB, Lucas conceived of a larger story, although the particulars of that, especially episode count and the specific plot points and such (e.g. Luke's arc being trimmed back from 6 episodes to 3), were still in flux after that.

[Jay G.]

Originally Posted by Zillamon51

Are the movie and special features BDs in the Skywalker Saga UHD set, the same as the ones in this set? Does the UHD Saga set make this set redundant?

The UHD Blu-rays put the bonus content on a "bonus" Blu-ray for each movie, instead of compiled on 3 Blu-rays like on the "Complete Saga" HD Blu-ray set. So you don't need to buy the "Skywalker Saga" set to get the bonus features for a particular film.

There's some carry-over of special features from the "Complete Saga" set, but not everything was carried over.

https://alexdiaz-granados.com/2020/0...buy-exclusive/

BVHE and Lucasfilm also decided to not port over most of the behind-the-scenes (BTS) documentaries and other bonus features that are on either the various DVD or Blu-ray sets released between 2004 and 2015 by Fox. A few selections from Star Wars: The Complete Saga’s Lucasfilm Archives did make it to the Bonus Features discs for each of the six Prequel and Original Trilogy films, but most of the in-depth stuff was left out. To be fair to BVHE, 2011’s Star Wars: The Complete Saga Blu-ray set did not port over anything on the 2004 Star Wars Trilogy DVD set’s fourth disc.

So, aside from several deleted scenes featurettes and other minor extras from previous home media releases, most of the good BTS stuff re the Lucas Era Star Wars films in the 2004-2015 home releases won’t be found in The Skywalker Saga’s Bonus Discs.

So to have all bonus features, you need the UHD set (or all UHD standalones), the Blu-ray set, the DVD set for the OT, and DVD standalones for the prequels. And even then, that's not considering stuff like "From Star Wars to Jedi," which only appeared on video tape and Laserdisc, and not on any later formats.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/lets-dive-in...c-b-1842496774

One other interesting thing to note is that The Beginning, the excellent feature-length documentary on the making of The Phantom Menace, which was not on the 2011 release, is on this one. However, the 2011 set came with a whole other disc of longer documentaries that don’t seem to be here. So don’t get rid of that set just yet...

: Reader Roderick Long emailed me to point out that the deleted scenes for the prequels were different on the previous DVD and Blu-ray sets and wanted to know if this set, finally, included the full collection of deleted scenes from both releases.

The answer to that question is no, but also, kind of.

For all three prequel films, the deleted scenes from the Blu-ray are there, as well as most of the ones from the DVD...but not all. For example, Phantom Menace is missing “Dawn Before the Race” and “Farewell to Jira” while Revenge of the Sith is missing the first and last part of the Rebel Alliance subplot, but has the middle one. Very weird indeed.

The reviews of the UHD discs list what bonus content they contain, such as this review for the original Star Wars:
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Star-...257142/#Review

[koberulz]

Originally Posted by koberulz

I don't believe anyone has any invitations left, do they? MS seems to have closed up shop unfortunately.

It's a pain in the ass not only for fan edits, but also when I want to watch things that just aren't available here at all (Run is a Hulu exclusive and Hulu isn't a thing here, for example). Not sure if MS dabbles in that sort of thing or not, though.

Additionally, I was looking for an external subtitle file to use with my The Gods Must be Crazy DVD on my media server, and by the filenames on Open Subtitles there's an HD version out there somewhere. Given it's now in the Disney vault...ugh.

[Class316]

Originally Posted by koberulz

Additionally, I was looking for an external subtitle file to use with my The Gods Must be Crazy DVD on my media server, and by the filenames on Open Subtitles there's an HD version out there somewhere. Given it's now in the Disney vault...ugh.

Isn't the English dub of The Gods Must be Crazy the only DVD released? There is no original Afrikaners version. Am I right?

[Gold Ranger]

To those of you going back and forth on the Father Skywalker, Anakin, Vader backstory and Lucas' changing ideas:
What is your take on Owen and Beru's lines:
Beru: "He's got too much of his father in him."
Owen: "That's what I'm afraid of.

I haven't seen you mention this part at all.

[koberulz]

Originally Posted by Class316

Isn't the English dub of The Gods Must be Crazy the only DVD released? There is no original Afrikaners version. Am I right?

I'm not aware of there being an Afrikaans version, no. Another reason I would've loved for it to come from a boutique label that would include the original audio.

But at a minimum I'd like to have it in HD, and the only way to have it in HD now is to pirate it, if you know where to look.

So I'm stuck with my shitty dubbed PAL DVD.

[happydood]

Originally Posted by Jay G.

I don't know what you're talking about here, since neither I nor anyone else I've seen has suggested the films were made "only the fly." Do you mean improvised on set?

Certainly there's a middle ground between "planned all 6, 9, 12 films in advance," and "it was all on the fly," yes?

Lucas started with a mess of ideas and an near incoherent story treatment. Then, in an attempt to get more structure, he literally copied a summary of The Hidden Fortress from a book, changing the setting, and character and place names. From there he made another attempt at an original story, iterated and refined over several drafts, and hired others to polish the dialogue.

In terms of "plans," I don't think Lucas had much set in stone for any future sequels while making Star Wars, and certainly not the "Vader is Luke's father" twist. He did, at the least, think that sequels were possible. He held onto the sequel rights after all, something that was extremely rare. He kept the Emperor off-screen. He kept Vader alive at the climax, limping away in his tie fighter. He commissioned Alan Dean Foster to write Splinter in the Mind's Eye, with an eye to using it as a script for a cheap sequel.

And certainly, during the development of ESB, Lucas came up with the backstory for Vader that he felt was rich enough to deserve its own trilogy of films, hence why Star Wars Chapter/Episode 2 became Episode V, and the original Star Wars was retroactively retitled Episode IV.

And it's known that during the making of ESB, Luke's arc was planned out to span 6 movies, with "there is another" supposed to be a new character that appears in a later film. However, Lucas was tired of Star Wars by the time they started scripting ROTJ, so condensed the storylines down to one "final" film to fit into a trilogy. So by ESB, Lucas was planning out the series beyond just the film at hand, but those plans also changed as circumstances did.

So yes, there's a middle ground, and I feel like my opinion is firmly in it.

You know, I don't think we're disagreeing, really, and this was much more reasonably stated- super-patronizing- but I get where you're coming from. All of your info is coming from The Secret History of Star Wars, yes? I've read it as well, but it's been a few years. And yes, it sounds like your opinion is in the middle ground in regards to the Father Vader angle, but I just see how these films came together as a creative process and Lucas as someone who markets himself, rather than as a villain for retconning the narrative of how he made the movies.

[Jay G.]

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

To those of you going back and forth on the Father Skywalker, Anakin, Vader backstory and Lucas' changing ideas:
What is your take on Owen and Beru's lines:
Beru: "He's got too much of his father in him."
Owen: "That's what I'm afraid of.

I haven't seen you mention this part at all.

It likely originally was Owen suggesting what Obi-Wan later says, that Owen was concerned Luke "might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned-fool idealistic crusade like your father did." Luke's father ended up dead, so Owen's of the mindset that staying home and keeping your head down is the better course of action. As Ob-Wan also stated in Star Wars: "[Owen] didn't hold with your father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved."

Owen didn't want Luke to go off on a grand adventure and get himself killed, like Luke's father did.

From Secret History of Star Wars:

The third draft communicates this original intent more explicitly, as Luke runs away from the farm to embark on his quest against his uncle’s wishes, to which Owen observes “That boy’s going to get himself killed; he’s just like his father.”

More about Lucas's creative process and the progression of the characters of Vader and Father Skywalker:

There is nothing to suggest that Lucas simply didn’t tell anyone—it is perfectly clear that Vader was always meant to be a simple villain, and Father Skywalker a separate character. Lucas’ personal notes also expelled his every thought on the film, often in a stream-of-conscious matter, and contain all sorts of alternate possibilities and tentative ideas that are suffixed with question marks—if such a major idea had entered his head he would have made a note of it and given it some exploration. Even more significantly, in Lucas’ private conversations and in his own personal notes the characters are still conceived as separate, even in 1975 and 1976, where the concept of Father Skywalker being murdered (by Vader starting in 1976) frequently is referenced, and this story perspective privately continues well into 1977.

Not only is the concept absent from any and all drafts and writings, but the idea is contradicted at every turn. The father is alive and well until the third draft, and by that point it is clear that he and Darth Vader are still continuing as the characters they were in the previous drafts—noble Jedi and evil henchman respectively. In fact, even in the third draft Luke knew his father as a boy, making the notion impossible still—it isn’t until the final draft that the character became a true part of history. Reading the scripts in the order in which they were written, there is a very clear linear progression of creative ideas...

As an example further bringing all of these arguments together, Lucas spells out the Vader backstory in a private conversation in 1977, not only showing him as a separate character from Father Skywalker (now named Annikin) but also laying out exactly how Vader was to hunt down the Jedi until only Kenobi and Luke’s father remained:

“When the Jedi tried to restore order, Darth Vader was still one of the Jedi. What he would do is catch the Jedi off-guard and, using his knowledge of the Force, he would kill the Jedi without them realizing what was happening. They trusted him and they didn't realize he was the murderer who was decimating their ranks. At the height of the Jedi, there were several hundred thousand. At the time of the Rebellion, most of them were killed. The Emperor had some strong forces rally behind him, as well, in terms of the army and the Imperial forces that he'd been building up secretly. The Jedi were so outnumbered that they fled and were tracked down. They tried to regroup, but they were eventually massacred by one of the special elite forces led by Darth Vader. Eventually, only a few, including Ben and Luke's father, were left. Luke's father is named Annikin.” [note 254: Rinzler, Making of Star Wars, p. 352]

[Jay G.]

Originally Posted by happydood

...but I just see how these films came together as a creative process and Lucas as someone who markets himself, rather than as a villain for retconning the narrative of how he made the movies.

I mean, you can see Lucas as a "villain," or just as a human who has some flaws, or maybe even justifiable in his actions to revise history. However, the fact remains that Lucas often after-the-fact changes the story about what he "always" had planned and in mind, so at the least, Lucas himself is often not a reliable source of information about how Star Wars actually came about, and outside verification needs to happen.

Also, Lucas isn't perfect. Yes, he came up with one of the greatest sci-fi fantasy adventures ever, and then steered that into making two more notable films, and then an expanded universe of novels, comics, video games, etc. before shitting the bed with the prequels, but that doesn't mean he's blameless for making bad Star Wars movies. He can be celebrated for what he did right, and criticized for what he did wrong, but what he actually did, right or wrong, is often obscured by the man himself.

This current discussion started because some fans, like myself, are frustrated that the original, unaltered versions of the original trilogy are not commercially available in a quality contemporary format, i.e. something more than letterboxed SD video. We want to celebrate George's original accomplishments, but he's hid them away for later, lesser, revisions.

Then there were new comments from Lucas himself about how people who criticize the bad dialogue in the prequels "don't understand" the original films, which comes down as patronizing from him, as well as wrong. The dialogue in the original films, while not flawless, was better, and it was better because Lucas listened to criticism from both the actors and colleagues, did revisions and hired others to polish the dialogue on the original film, as well as hiring screenwriters to write the final drafts of the next two films.

Then people like WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW and CreasyBear repeatedly just regurgitate some of Lucas's lies that they take at face value. I post corrections, with evidence, to show what most likely really happened. If they challenge that, I've been asking for actual evidence to back up their claims, and call them on it if they can't provide it.

People are entitled to their own opinions, they're not entitled to their own facts, even George Lucas himself. He's been spouting alternative facts for decades now, and it's important to know the truth to fully appreciate the history and cultural impact of the films.

[D00mM4r1n3]

Originally Posted by koberulz

I'm not aware of there being an Afrikaans version, no. Another reason I would've loved for it to come from a boutique label that would include the original audio.

But at a minimum I'd like to have it in HD, and the only way to have it in HD now is to pirate it, if you know where to look.

So I'm stuck with my shitty dubbed PAL DVD.

It's in HD on iTunes and probably other digital services like a lot of movies, just needs someone to release it physically.

[Narcissus]

This is whole debate is really rather silly, as Obi-Wan explained it in Jedi:

Luke Skywalker : Ben! Why didn't you tell me? You told me that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered my father.

Obi-Wan : Your father... was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became the Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So, what I told you was true... from a certain point of view.

Luke Skywalker : A certain point of view?

Obi-Wan : Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. Anakin was a good friend. When I first met him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.

Luke Skywalker : There is still good in him.

Obi-Wan : He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.

Luke Skywalker : I can't do it, Ben.

Obi-Wan : You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.

Luke Skywalker : I can't kill my own father.

Obi-Wan : Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

Obi-Wan is exactly right. And the prophecy was correct. He did bring balance to the force, because the prophecy never laid out a time line of when he would bring balance.

The only reason it becomes muddled is due to George retconning the O.T. to fit his twisted......................

HOLY CRAP - HE's PALPATINE!

[WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW]

Originally Posted by Jay G.

And your reading of the scene is your own subjective opinion of that scene, and is colored by the later films.

no it wasn't colored by the later films, as I said it hit me as being very shifty right on day 1 and by day 1 I mean the very first day Star Wars was ever shown in theaters to the general public

The scene plays fine as Obi-Wan being completely honest, but hesitant.

sure doesn't look like it to me, look at his micro expressions

Even if one were to accept as fact that he's definitely hiding something about the backstory in that scene though, it doesn't necessarily follow that the hidden info is that Vader is Luke's father. Maybe Obi-Wan's hiding the fact that Luke's father was killed by a Chicken-Duck-Woman thing instead.

yeah but it would certainly make more sense for it to be something like I suggest rather than hiding that it was by the embarassment of a chickenduckwoman

yes no proof, but it's certainly more than possible and certainly not 100% impossible as you insist that such an idea was at least floating around in and out of his head way back and it does fit with how that scene was acted

And you've already acknowledged that Lucas will lie when it suits his personal purposes, so his after-the-fact statements can't be taken at face value. There needs to be some third-party confirmation, and you repeatedly fail to provide any.

mostly it's just to get people off his back though, which is a different sort of thing

but anyway, in a more general sense, it's also been shown that Kasdan and the others you quote also have made statements that contradict known things and change and require a lot of the from a certain point of view thing so.... why take 100% of what is said by others to meet your aims as 100% gospel and take 0% of what Lucas says? there is a lot of stuff going all over the place from all of them

The Clone Wars were literally mentioned in Star Wars, so I don't know why you think that's evidence of any "secret" history already planned out.

because it shows he had thought at least a bit about earlier stuff

And the Obi-Wan vs Vader lava fight was revealed after Star Wars came out, in supplementary material. It's not evidence of anything planned before or during the making of Star Wars.

Well it was known to the public since at least August '77.

Note that the lava fight was conceived of before making Vader Luke's father was. Even if Lucas had an idea during Star Wars that Obi-Wan had wounded Vader in a lava fight, it doesn't necessarily follow that Vader was Luke's father at this point. Again your knowledge of later developments is causing you to conflate plot points that weren't necessarily originally connected and intertwined.

also doesn't mean that he hadn't floated around in his head various possibilities including Vader directly being his father

No, this is a lie that Lucas later created. There's no evidence of this, especially in the earlier treatments and drafts for Star Wars. Making Star Wars a section of the "middle part" of a larger story didn't happen until Lucas was developing ESB with other writers, hence why the ESB drafts shifted from being titled Chapter/Episode 2 to Episode V.

you don't know for sure on that first part
and no on the second part

anyway this is going nowhere