I hated Force awakens upon first viewing. You can look back 4/5years and see my posts from when I left the theater.
I was told that I shouldn't hate it, that the next one will give us the answers for questions i had.
Well, that didn't happen at all. I wonder what those people now think?
Also, I hated Last Jedi. I am one of the few people who doesn't mind discussing it.
Everyone else just seems to say they hate/like it and moves on.
However, I loved Rogue One and thought Solo was pretty good.
And it's funny, I remember back in the early 90s, everyone wanted a Han Solo movie, and when one finally comes out, so many people were saying "no one asked for a Han Solo movie!"
I personally hated TLJ, however, I am open to discussing it. Here are some of my biggest gripes with the film off the top of my head
[Show spoiler]
1 Rey is too op. The prequels and the originals both established that Jedi need to train before they can use the force properly. Rey receives what, 2 lessons?, from Luke and her power seems to even surpass Yoda, who has been a Jedi for 850 years in AOTC.
I know many people have compared this to Luke training with Yoda for only a few days before fighting Vader, however, Luke lost. His hand was chopped off, and it is reasonable to assume Luke practiced the force between 4 & 5. Rey doesn't. This film immediately follows 7, where she receives no training. It'd be different if she lost, but she doesn't. Her character doesn't grow and fail like characters should.
- In 7, she beats Kylo.
- In 8, She successfully kills several Praetorian guard
- Shoots down 3 tie fighters in one hit, not missing one.
- Lifts thousands of tons of boulders
Comparing this to Luke in 4 & 5
- Fails to deflect several bullets in 4 from the practice ball
- Fails to lift his X-wing out of the water
- Loses to Vader
Rey defeating Kylo/The First Order in 9 would be acceptable. But the same cannot be said about someone who discovered the force 24-48 hours ago.
2 The First Order chasing the Resistance ship makes no sense. They have hundreds of tie fighters they could use to overwhelm it, but they only send out 3. Compare this to Rogue One, or Return of the Jedi where they send out hundreds. Instead of destroying a weak enemy in under an hour, they drag it out for a day.
Here's a gif showing the difference between the Empire reacting to a rebel attack in R1, vs the FO in TLJ
3 There is no logical explanation as to how Kylo would know about Crait. Copy-pasted another post that summarized it well.
Snoke starts to read Rey's mind, closing his eyes and levitating her. The scene cuts to Poe and Leia on a transport. Next scene is the hangar where we see the FO has just run a decloaking scan based on DJ's info. Next we see Snoke dropping Rey and opening his eyes as he completes reading her mind. He then shows her the transports, but he's never been told about them. Regardless, he doesn't mention where they are headed.
So when Kylo wakes up, he says:
"We know where she's going. Get all our forces down to that Resistance base, let's finish this."
Um, what? Kylo has no idea that they are even near Crait, and he doesn't know that the Resistance is fleeing to an abandoned Resistance Rebel base, last used ~40 years ago. Basically the script requires him to say it, even though it doesn't make sense for him to know it.
4 Ignores lore established by the Force awakens. In TFA, its a major plot point Luke left a map to him. In TLJ, he went there to die and didn't want to be found. In several of the guide books for TFA, it evens states Luke was waiting to be found. Likewise, Poe and Rey met in the canon TFA's novelization, but meet again for the first (second) time in TLJ.
5 Where are the Knights of Ren exactly? Granted, 9 might give a good explanation, but at the moment they're for no good reason missing.
6 How did Snoke come to power? We got zero explanation and now he's dead. It didn't matter for Palpatine as in the OT the series began with the Empire in power, but we've just skipped from the New Republic in power to the First Order/Snoke in power with no explanation in-film. And I don't want an explanation in the novels and comics, but in the films themselves.
7 Inconsistent characterization between the two films
Look at Hux in the Force Awakens. He's scary, brutal, menacing, and intelligent. In TLJ he's weak and stupid, falling for a prank call about his mother.
8 Luke thinks the Jedi should end. So why is he wearing his Jedi robes in the end of TFA/beginning of TLJ. The real-world answer is JJ Abrams wanted to portray Luke as a powerful Jedi Master in hiding, which is why he's wearing the robes. Rian Johnson wanted him to hate the Jedi, want to abolish the order, which is why he changes to his hobo clothes right after. But still, its inconsistent characterization, and two polar opposite visions back to back.
9 Luke's characterization. Building off point 8, Luke believes the Jedi should end. The three trilogies were supposed to represent Luke learning from the Jedi's mistakes.
- Prequel trilogy: Jedi cause their own downfall by ignoring their own teachings
- Original trilogy: Luke becomes a Jedi and learns about the fallen order
So logically, as Lucas planned, Luke should have re-established the order, learning from the Prequel Jedi's mistakes. Instead, he makes the same mistakes again, ignoring what would have been a perfect three-part story.
10 Kiling Ackbar offscreen. TLJ comic showed exactly how the film could have given him a meaningful ending.
I'm not mad he died, I'm mad he was killed off without anything meaningful. Now I've heard two defenses against this.
1. He's just a meme
2. People die in war without a meaningful end
No, he's not just a meme. He had a major part in Legends and has been a favorite of mine, and well as many regardless of the meme.
Yes, people die in war without a meaningful end. This is not real war, this is a fictional film. Characters should be given meaningful endings.
This literally could have been fixed with 3 seconds of screentime
11 Why is Holdo, a Vice admiral, wearing a ball gown in a military setting. This is no explanation for this, and every other military member wears a uniform in the film.
More minor issues
[Show spoiler]
1 Tons of continuity issues, some in-film, some between 7 & 8
Just watch the movements, Rey doesn't block the guards hits, the guards swing at where her saber already is
3 Cringey/unfunny humor. Often put in at moments that should be suspenseful, but no longer are because of it (admittingly Marvel movies are guilty of this too)
Look at how Luke looks upon the lightsaber. TLJ chooses to open with a gag of him throwing it, when fans had waited decades to see Luke as a Jedi, not as a troll. Its clearly a different character between TFA's last scene and TLJ's first scene.
Despite overall disliking the film, I will not hate on anyone for liking it. You have an opinion, which I can respect. I like the prequels, flawed as they are. Just sharing my thoughts since people say no one gives any reasons they hated the fiom, don't mean for it to come off as a rant if it seems that way.
------
Also, I really dislike whole no one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans. Being a fan of a franchise doesn't mean you have to or should necessarily like every installment.
Last edited by JEDGAR1000; 10-31-2018 at 03:37 AM.
Well, I like all of the Star Wars films. Do I like the prequels less than the rest? Sure, but I still like them for what they are. Did I really like TLJ? Hell yeah, and I don't give a rat's behind who thinks I am nuts for it.
I could post counter points to every quibble to the above gripes, but I am too lazy at this moment. Maybe tomorrow.
Luke was on Dagobah for a couple of weeks. Han and Leia, Chewie, Threepio were traveling for weeks as well. They were on Bespin for a few days. Once Boba knew where they were heading, he went to the Executor, told Vader and they went to Bespin. Set everything up and waited for Han to finally get there. Boba had the use of hyperspace, Han was stuck at sublight
I hated Force awakens upon first viewing. You can look back 4/5years and see my posts from when I left the theater.
I was told that I shouldn't hate it, that the next one will give us the answers for questions i had.
Well, that didn't happen at all. I wonder what those people now think?
Also, I hated Last Jedi. I am one of the few people who doesn't mind discussing it.
Everyone else just seems to say they hate/like it and moves on.
However, I loved Rogue One and thought Solo was pretty good.
And it's funny, I remember back in the early 90s, everyone wanted a Han Solo movie, and when one finally comes out, so many people were saying "no one asked for a Han Solo movie!"
4/5 years? So you were complaining about the film two years before it was made because it was released on December 18, 2015 in the U.S.
You're taking the Michael but even so, the deleted scene in Clones with Padme's family where she gazes longingly at Anakin shows more of her feelings towards him than a hundred pages of risible Lucas-penned dialogue.
Attack of the Clones had some great deleted scenes. While we're on the subject, my personal favorite is this one about Dooku, really wish it had been kept
Attack of the Clones had some great deleted scenes. While we're on the subject, my personal favorite is this one about Dooku, really wish it had been kept
The handling of Dooku through the trilogy was truly perverse. We're supposed to believe, apparently, that Dooku's defection to the darkside occurred around the time-frame of The Phantom Menace. But how and why was not interesting enough for a movie. In fact how and why a Jedi becomes a Sith could not be shown in order for it to seem like just one of those things that can sometimes happen and the Jedi order are powerless to prevent it. The only example we've been given, Anakin being so greedy about people not dying that he's agreeable to killing loads of people he's not even angry with. So we have to assume that Dooku's defection was along similar lines.
Aye right.
The fact is that this stuff was being made up as George went along. It was discovered that Dooku was a far more interesting character than possibly even Palpatine (not yet revealed as a Sith) and they chose to cut back on the mystique surrounding him so that he wouldn't overshadow anyone else. It might have been far better if that aspect had been exploited from the very beginning.
I personally hated TLJ, however, I am open to discussing it. Here are some of my biggest gripes with the film off the top of my head
[Show spoiler]
1 Rey is too op. The prequels and the originals both established that Jedi need to train before they can use the force properly. Rey receives what, 2 lessons?, from Luke and her power seems to even surpass Yoda, who has been a Jedi for 850 years in AOTC.
I know many people have compared this to Luke training with Yoda for only a few days before fighting Vader, however, Luke lost. His hand was chopped off, and it is reasonable to assume Luke practiced the force between 4 & 5. Rey doesn't. This film immediately follows 7, where she receives no training. It'd be different if she lost, but she doesn't. Her character doesn't grow and fail like characters should.
- In 7, she beats Kylo.
- In 8, She successfully kills several Praetorian guard
- Shoots down 3 tie fighters in one hit, not missing one.
- Lifts thousands of tons of boulders
Comparing this to Luke in 4 & 5
- Fails to deflect several bullets in 4 from the practice ball
- Fails to lift his X-wing out of the water
- Loses to Vader
Rey defeating Kylo/The First Order in 9 would be acceptable. But the same cannot be said about someone who discovered the force 24-48 hours ago.
2 The First Order chasing the Resistance ship makes no sense. They have hundreds of tie fighters they could use to overwhelm it, but they only send out 3. Compare this to Rogue One, or Return of the Jedi where they send out hundreds. Instead of destroying a weak enemy in under an hour, they drag it out for a day.
Here's a gif showing the difference between the Empire reacting to a rebel attack in R1, vs the FO in TLJ
3 There is no logical explanation as to how Kylo would know about Crait. Copy-pasted another post that summarized it well.
Snoke starts to read Rey's mind, closing his eyes and levitating her. The scene cuts to Poe and Leia on a transport. Next scene is the hangar where we see the FO has just run a decloaking scan based on DJ's info. Next we see Snoke dropping Rey and opening his eyes as he completes reading her mind. He then shows her the transports, but he's never been told about them. Regardless, he doesn't mention where they are headed.
So when Kylo wakes up, he says:
"We know where she's going. Get all our forces down to that Resistance base, let's finish this."
Um, what? Kylo has no idea that they are even near Crait, and he doesn't know that the Resistance is fleeing to an abandoned Resistance Rebel base, last used ~40 years ago. Basically the script requires him to say it, even though it doesn't make sense for him to know it.
4 Ignores lore established by the Force awakens. In TFA, its a major plot point Luke left a map to him. In TLJ, he went there to die and didn't want to be found. In several of the guide books for TFA, it evens states Luke was waiting to be found. Likewise, Poe and Rey met in the canon TFA's novelization, but meet again for the first (second) time in TLJ.
5 Where are the Knights of Ren exactly? Granted, 9 might give a good explanation, but at the moment they're for no good reason missing.
6 How did Snoke come to power? We got zero explanation and now he's dead. It didn't matter for Palpatine as in the OT the series began with the Empire in power, but we've just skipped from the New Republic in power to the First Order/Snoke in power with no explanation in-film. And I don't want an explanation in the novels and comics, but in the films themselves.
7 Inconsistent characterization between the two films
Look at Hux in the Force Awakens. He's scary, brutal, menacing, and intelligent. In TLJ he's weak and stupid, falling for a prank call about his mother.
8 Luke thinks the Jedi should end. So why is he wearing his Jedi robes in the end of TFA/beginning of TLJ. The real-world answer is JJ Abrams wanted to portray Luke as a powerful Jedi Master in hiding, which is why he's wearing the robes. Rian Johnson wanted him to hate the Jedi, want to abolish the order, which is why he changes to his hobo clothes right after. But still, its inconsistent characterization, and two polar opposite visions back to back.
9 Luke's characterization. Building off point 8, Luke believes the Jedi should end. The three trilogies were supposed to represent Luke learning from the Jedi's mistakes.
- Prequel trilogy: Jedi cause their own downfall by ignoring their own teachings
- Original trilogy: Luke becomes a Jedi and learns about the fallen order
So logically, as Lucas planned, Luke should have re-established the order, learning from the Prequel Jedi's mistakes. Instead, he makes the same mistakes again, ignoring what would have been a perfect three-part story.
10 Kiling Ackbar offscreen. TLJ comic showed exactly how the film could have given him a meaningful ending.
I'm not mad he died, I'm mad he was killed off without anything meaningful. Now I've heard two defenses against this.
1. He's just a meme
2. People die in war without a meaningful end
No, he's not just a meme. He had a major part in Legends and has been a favorite of mine, and well as many regardless of the meme.
Yes, people die in war without a meaningful end. This is not real war, this is a fictional film. Characters should be given meaningful endings.
This literally could have been fixed with 3 seconds of screentime
11 Why is Holdo, a Vice admiral, wearing a ball gown in a military setting. This is no explanation for this, and every other military member wears a uniform in the film.
More minor issues
[Show spoiler]
1 Tons of continuity issues, some in-film, some between 7 & 8
Just watch the movements, Rey doesn't block the guards hits, the guards swing at where her saber already is
3 Cringey/unfunny humor. Often put in at moments that should be suspenseful, but no longer are because of it (admittingly Marvel movies are guilty of this too)
Look at how Luke looks upon the lightsaber. TLJ chooses to open with a gag of him throwing it, when fans had waited decades to see Luke as a Jedi, not as a troll. Its clearly a different character between TFA's last scene and TLJ's first scene.
Despite overall disliking the film, I will not hate on anyone for liking it. You have an opinion, which I can respect. I like the prequels, flawed as they are. Just sharing my thoughts since people say no one gives any reasons they hated the fiom, don't mean for it to come off as a rant if it seems that way.
------
Also, I really dislike whole no one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans. Being a fan of a franchise doesn't mean you have to or should necessarily like every installment.
I have decided to address your major quibbles below, but I am not wasting time on the minor ones. Continuity issues happen with franchises all the time especially when the director changes from one film to the next.
[Show spoiler]1) How do we know Rey is too OP as you say? We don't really know anything about her background other than what Ben tells her and he could be lying. You only think she's OP because of what you have seen in the past with other Jedi.
2) Even the largest and most organized military forces can have poor commanders. That's what we have in this instance. The First Order was overconfident. This was reinforced by the fact that they didn't expect a single X-Wing to attack a Dreadnaught.
3) It was only the planet near what was left of the Rebel fleet so it was a logical assumption. It certainly made sense to me. Kylo sensed Leia was headed towards the planet through the force and followed her.
4) Not sure why this matters. You have two different directors of the two films so you're going to have two different interpretations of Luke.
5) It doesn't really matter if they show the history of the Knights of Ren. They are inconsequential as to what happens in Episode 9.
6) We don't really need to know how Snoke and the First Order came to power. Since I have read almost all of the books/graphic novels it would stand to reason that the First Order was established with the remnants of the Empire and Snoke was there to pick up the pieces where Palpatine and Vader left off.
7) I never got the impression in TFA that Hux was intelligent. He's a an Imperial General who Snoke trusts because he will follow Snoke's orders no matter what. I felt that Piet was much more intelligent than Hux in TESB and ROTJ.
8) It doesn't matter what he wears. Maybe the robes are comfortable or maybe he just didn't want to wear something else.
9) From what you've said you appear to have had a preset plot in your mind and you are disappointed by what actually occurred with Luke's character. I personally felt that Luke's decisions made perfect sense and he was even able to redeem himself by allowing the Rebels to escape by stalling Ben.
10) The film was already well over 2 hours long. Ackbar was featured briefly in TFA and that's fine with me and most viewers.
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