Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Hardback247]

It's like you all only paid attention to Kylo's side of the story, and not Luke's.

[Hardback247]

It's wishful thinking to believe that anybody could ever stop struggling with their own thoughts and darkness. We all do it every day. That's just how life works.

[SymbioticFunction]

I may well be attacked for this but I don't actually mind that flashback moment between Luke and Ben Solo. I'd even go as far to say that I thought it was a good and interesting idea to show the same moment from the two different points of view (Luke's and Ben's) and let the viewer decide which one was probably more accurate.

[Caseyscott]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

That’s quite a big change in how you view the scene now. Does that make you feel differently about Luke in TLJ, because he reacted with fear and anger and thought about murdering his nephew? Do you feel that’s consistent with Luke in the OT, you threw down his lightsaber after fighting Vader in ROTJ, because he realised that anger and hatred would lead to the darkside?

It is consistent with the original trilogy, as Luke had before succumbed to emotionally informed behavior prior to arriving at a more measured and rational decision. This of course is not solely reflective of Luke’s character but the specific classical dramatic arc of the protagonist. It is the designed to be the visual representation of our internal conflicts, and the Last Jedi uses this story telling device precisely in the same way. Almost everything involving Luke, Rey and Ren are brilliantly written and executed, the remainder of the film suffers from so much pandering content distension it is in danger of spilling its poorly written innards all over the saga. The Prequels are garbage but they at least trust the audience with the material.

[Falaskan]

Originally Posted by Alan_Grant

Holy ****, since when do people have pure thoughts every microsecond, from cradle to grave?? Because that’s how long it took for Luke to realize he was wrong to think of killing Ben.

When you think about it in terms of religious dogma and suppression, it’s a poetic scene. How many people on the fringes of society have been told they’re not worthy enough to be part of the (fill in the blank) religious group they’re wanting to join. The irony is that when you exclude someone from things like that for not being good enough it often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, driving them even more into the things you wanted to exclude them for. And that’s exactly what Luke did to Ben.

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

The thing is, those were different circumstances.

Well, every moment a person goes through in life, is a set of different circumstances. But ideally, you would learn from your experiences and mistakes, and apply that to future circumstances, so you don’t make the same mistakes.

Originally Posted by Caseyscott

It is consistent with the original trilogy, as Luke had before succumbed to emotionally informed behavior prior to arriving at a more measured and rational decision. This of course is not solely reflective of Luke’s character but the specific classical dramatic arc of the protagonist. It is the designed to be the visual representation of our internal conflicts, and the Last Jedi uses this story telling device precisely in the same way.

It’s consistent in terms of Luke having gone through a similar situation before, fighting Vader with hatred and anger in ROTJ, and he had been tested by it, but crucially, he realised the error of his ways back in ROTJ. So he had already learned from this moment, so wouldn’t Luke have grown to become wiser and more mindful in his older age, considering he’d been studying the Jedi way for about 30 years? That’s why I think it’s actually inconsistent, because they have to regress Luke’s character growth, to justify his reaction in TLJ, IMO.

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

Well, every moment a person goes through in life, is a set of different circumstances. But ideally, you would learn from your experiences and mistakes, and apply that to future circumstances, so you don’t make the same mistakes.

Nobody's perfect.

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

He DID learn his lesson in ROTJ. The only thing comparable about both situations is that a single critical aspect of Luke's characterization is consistent and present in both: That he would never kill a family relative.

So Luke learnt his lesson in ROTJ, that he shouldn’t strike out with anger and hatred, but then he sensed the visions in Ben’s mind, and because of his anger and hatred, he proceeded to ignite his lightsaber threateningly, to briefly think about killing his unarmed sleeping nephew?

It doesn’t seem like he learned from his previous lesson, and I’d say both situations are very similar, with threats to the things and people Luke loves. It’s just that Luke didn’t actually go on to attack Ben, like he attacked Vader in ROTJ.

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

So Luke learnt his lesson in ROTJ, that he shouldn’t strike out with anger and hatred, but then he sensed the visions in Ben’s mind, and because of his anger and hatred, he proceeded to ignite his lightsaber threateningly, to briefly think about killing his unarmed sleeping nephew.

It doesn’t seem like he learned from his previous lesson, and I’d say both situations are pretty similar, it’s just that Luke didn’t actually attack Ben, like he attacked Vader.

Ever heard of the question, "Would you kill baby Hitler?" If you could travel back in time knowing that Hitler would grow up to be a ruthless tyrant, and kill him as a young age, would you do it? Luke briefly went through a similar situation.

This article talks about the "baby Hitler" problem in the context of Luke's actions:

https://medium.com/@craigpartain/the...a-4197bc29d638

[stvn1974]

The main problem with how Luke is handled in the Sequel Trilogy so far for me is that after he realized Ben had been corrupted by Snoke and he destroyed the training temple and killed the students instead of helping he just goes away. That is not the Luke that we got to know from Star Wars to the end of Return Of The Jedi.

And don't get me started on Han and Leia. I get that people change and evolve over thirty years but this a fantasy series so couldn't at least they get to have some sort of happiness? They just decided to undo just about everything they could from the OT, even Threepio didn't get to keep the same arm. R2 goes into some coma, etc.

JJ to Kennedy: I have an amazing idea, all of the characters seem happy and content at the end of Jedi so let's crap all over them for this new Trilogy. Most characters in those awful soap operas that go on for decades don't go through this kind of pain.

This is Star Wars not War and Peace. Thankfully if The Rise Of Skywalker is terrible I can just pretend this series never happened like I do with most series sequels and pretend Star Wars ended with Return Of The Jedi.

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

Ever heard of the question, "Would you kill baby Hitler?" If you could travel back in time knowing that Hitler would grow up to be a ruthless tyrant, and kill him as a young age, would you do it? Luke briefly went through a similar situation.

This article talks about that problem in the context of Luke's actions:

https://medium.com/@craigpartain/the...a-4197bc29d638

Yes, I’ve heard all this. IMO, OT Luke would never consider doing something like this, not after his character arc is complete in ROTJ.

I think Luke would’ve sensed the visions in Ben, and asked for guidance from Yoda, Obi and even Anakin. Then he could’ve spoken to Leia about Ben, and then spoken to Ben properly. But I don’t understand how it even got this far in the first place, as Luke had said he sensed the darkness growing in Ben. So why didn’t he do something about it earlier? What exactly was he doing while he sensed this darkness growing?

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

And don't get me started on Han and Leia. I get that people change and evolve over thirty years but this a fantasy series so couldn't at least they get to have some sort of happiness? They just decided to undo just about everything they could from the OT, even Threepio didn't get to keep the same arm.

This series is called Star Wars, not Star Peace.

Just because it's a fantasy series, doesn't mean it has to completely detach itself from how the cycle of real history works. That's like saying World War II undid all of the efforts of the soldiers in World War I.

When you have a series with as vast of a history as Star Wars, there ARE no concrete endings or happily ever afters. Success and happiness will always be short-term.

[Caseyscott]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

Well, every moment a person goes through in life, is a set of different circumstances. But ideally, you would learn from your experiences and mistakes, and apply that to future circumstances, so you don’t make the same mistakes.




It’s consistent in terms of Luke having gone through a similar situation before, fighting Vader with hatred and anger in ROTJ, and he had been tested by it, but crucially, he realised the error of his ways back in ROTJ. So he had already learned from this moment, so wouldn’t Luke have grown to become wiser and more mindful in his older age, considering he’d been studying the Jedi way for about 30 years? That’s why I think it’s actually inconsistent, because they have to regress Luke’s character growth, to justify his reaction in TLJ, IMO.

He could have been written that way and it still have made sense, his role in the film would’ve been much different however, but both scenarios are compatible under the umbrellas of what already exists in the story and the emotional evocation these dramatic techniques are designed to evoke. One would otherwise have to propose a sort of determinist character arc and six hours of film is severely insufficient to account for the necessary variables, therefore the framework must have a degree of malleability. The trolley dilemma presented in The Last Jedi is a broad enough departure from the conflict faced in all three of the previous Skywalker installments that he could be divorced from any assumed stoicism he may have achieved.

[stvn1974]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

This series is called Star Wars, not Star Peace.

Just because it's a fantasy series, doesn't mean it has to completely detach itself from how the cycle of real history works. That's like saying World War II undid all of the efforts of World War I.

When you have a series with as vast of a history as Star Wars, there ARE no concrete endings or happily ever afters. Success and happiness will always be short-term.

So if we get a happy ending with Rise Of Skywalker can we expect a new trilogy in 30 years undoing everything from it too? Can't wait.

And if Palpatine is alive in this new film it not only a major plot problem but it will nullify the entire point of the first six films in the series.

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

Yes, I’ve heard all this. IMO, OT Luke would never consider doing something like this, not after his character arc is complete in ROTJ.

I think Luke would’ve sensed the visions in Ben, and asked for guidance from Yoda, Obi and even Anakin. Then he could’ve spoken to Leia about Ben, and then spoken to Ben properly. But I don’t understand how it even got this far in the first place, as Luke had said he sensed the darkness growing in Ben. So why didn’t he do something about it earlier? What exactly was he doing while he sensed this darkness growing?

Luke's arc in TLJ also parallels the elderly King Arthur:



King Arthur's reign is cut short when he is betrayed by his nephew Mordred**/**Luke goes into hiding after his temple is destroyed by his nephew Kylo Ren.

Arthur's last act is to face down Mordred, which cost him his life**/**Luke's last act is to face down Kylo, which cost him his life.

Arthur's reign ends with his kingdom at war once again, the peace he brought being undone by his nephew Mordred**/**The balance Luke brought to the Force is undone by his nephew Kylo Ren, and when he passes the galaxy is at war once again.

Arthur ends his life on Avalon, the island where Excalibur was forged**/**Luke ends his life on Ahch-To, the island where the Jedi began.

Arthur doesn't die, but simply disappears. Legends saying he will return one day, inspiring hope**/**Luke doesn't die but becomes one with the Force, his legend spreading throughout the galaxy inspiring hope. He also may return one day.

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

And if Palpatine is alive in this new film it not only a major plot problem but it will nullify the entire point of the first six films in the series.

We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

So if we get a happy ending with Rise Of Skywalker can we expect a new trilogy in 30 years undoing everything from it too? Can't wait.

Let me ask you this. Did you REALLY think that the death of Palpatine wouldn't have ANY kind of negative long-term consequences for the people who followed him?

The atomic bombings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki MAY have ended World War II, but the very ethics of owning nuclear weapons and deciding what to do with them led into the early stages of the Cold War.

[Alan_Grant]

Must be tough being an apologist

[Cook]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

So if we get a happy ending with Rise Of Skywalker can we expect a new trilogy in 30 years undoing everything from it too? Can't wait.

And if Palpatine is alive in this new film it not only a major plot problem but it will nullify the entire point of the first six films in the series.

Probably sooner than 30 years. Less than 10 years would be my guess. The Star Wars galaxy is meant to be a living world. Just like our real world there will always be conflict and bad people. So yeah there will be more star wars movies and will never be ever lasting peace or a final victory.

And no Sidious being alive isnt a major plot problem. Nothing in the previous films establishes that Sidious cant return in some way. In fact ROTS established that there is a way to go beyond death. And the Legends and the Canon have presented characters existing beyond death. Sidious gave Vader a Sith relic that was possessed by the spirit of an ancient Sith Lord. Sidious knew dark side magic, knew of temporal portals through time, searched the galaxy for ancient secrets and relics, was familiar with cloning tech, had access to the Jedi Archives for 20+ years... so I dont think its inconceivable that he could have found some way to exist beyond the events of ROTJ.

Also it doesnt nullify the point of the previous 6 films. Episode 6 wasnt the end of the Skywalker story or the Sidious story.

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

Luke's arc in TLJ also parallels the elderly King Arthur:



King Arthur's reign is cut short when he is betrayed by his nephew Mordred**/**Luke goes into hiding after his temple is destroyed by his nephew Kylo Ren.

Arthur's last act is to face down Mordred, which cost him his life**/**Luke's last act is to face down Kylo, which cost him his life.

Arthur's reign ends with his kingdom at war once again, the peace he brought being undone by his nephew Mordred**/**The balance Luke brought to the Force is undone by his nephew Kylo Ren, and when he passes the galaxy is at war once again.

Arthur ends his life on Avalon, the island where Excalibur was forged**/**Luke ends his life on Ahch-To, the island where the Jedi began.

Arthur doesn't die, but simply disappears. Legends saying he will return one day, inspiring hope**/**Luke doesn't die but becomes one with the Force, his legend spreading throughout the galaxy inspiring hope. He also may return one day.

This is all fair enough, but it’s the specifics about certain things that raises questions. How and why did Ben manage to turn bad right under Luke’s nose? Why didn’t Luke appear to do anything about this darkness that he sensed growing in Ben? Would Luke really consider killing his unarmed nephew in his sleep? Would Luke really run away and do nothing to help, shutting himself off from the Force and Leia, who is now in danger, completely giving up? Once Rey finds Luke, and asks for him to help Leia and the Resistance, would Luke really still refuse to help at all?