Batman: Caped Crusader (HBOMax Animated Series) (Abrams and Reeves)

[Batmon77]

I wish their take on Nocturna was the adult version and not a Wednesday homage.



She was a late 80's character that never really was continued by writers. But she has that Quasi-Vampire thing going on.
But as usual they are focusing on Selina as the romantic interest.

[Zechs Merquise]

Originally Posted by matirocker

have no basis about them

They have every basis. Do you even know what ESG is? Companies get paid to push diversity (and punished if they don't). That's the only reason most of them are doing any of this.

Originally Posted by matirocker

Yes, Timm is in part responsable for BTAS, but did they ever nail Penguin?

Are you trying to tell me that She-Penguin nailed the Penguin either?

Originally Posted by matirocker

It's been done before and no one has cared

I don't think you've really been on the internet that long if you think people don't generally get overheated over creators changing established characters.

People complained about the original Ultimate Spider-Man, for god's sake. One of the best and most popular interpretations of Spider-Man and people trashed it before the first issue even came out because it was a reboot and John Byrne's Spider-Man: Chapter One had already stunk up the place.

Originally Posted by matirocker

Can you name femail villains besides Catwoman, Harley, Poison Ivy and Talia?

Lady Shiva, Lady Clayface, Magpie, Nyssa Raatko, Phantasm, Roxy Rocket, Red Claw (all three created by Dini and Timm and Roxy Rocket was very...memorable), Nocturna, White Rabbit, I'm sure there's others.

Even if it was true that there are very few or no great female Batman villains, create one. That's what Dini and Timm did back in the day. For BTAS they created Harley, Roxy Rocket, Phantasm, the Red Claw and a few others. For STAS they created Livewire. For Batman Beyond they created Inque. I'm sure they created interesting female characters for Justice League and Justice League Unlimited.

This is my problem with both Penguins. They're both exactly what's wrong with modern entertainment. The creators of either have no real interest in actually doing the Penguin and have every interest in cynically using his name and brand recognition to tell stories about two completely different characters, instead of just creating their own characters.

[matirocker]

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

They have every basis. Do you even know what ESG is? Companies get paid to push diversity (and punished if they don't). That's the only reason most of them are doing any of this.

First I've heard of this. Interesting.

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

Are you trying to tell me that She-Penguin nailed the Penguin either?

I'm trying to tell you that Timm never did quite know what to do with Penguin so they tried the genderswap, which brought a lot of fresh ideas for them.

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

I don't think you've really been on the internet that long if you think people don't generally get overheated over creators changing established characters.

People complained about the original Ultimate Spider-Man, for god's sake. One of the best and most popular interpretations of Spider-Man and people trashed it before the first issue even came out because it was a reboot and John Byrne's Spider-Man: Chapter One had already stunk up the place.

I've been on the internet long enough to know that people like to complain just to let of their steam out, and, as is the case with the example you provided, are usually on the wrong side. I know it's a cliche example but Heath Ledger as The Joker announcement couldn't have gone worse and we all know how that turned out.

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

Lady Shiva, Lady Clayface, Magpie, Nyssa Raatko, Phantasm, Roxy Rocket, Red Claw (all three created by Dini and Timm and Roxy Rocket was very...memorable), Nocturna, White Rabbit, I'm sure there's others.

I wasn't clear enough.
Can you name female villains besides Catwoman, Harley, Poison Ivy and Talia? If you can, can you really say the other ones are really that good or iconic next to them or villains like Joker, Riddler, Mr Freeze, Two Face, Ra's, Bane, etc? There's probably not a lot of them.
That was meant as 1 big question, not if you can simply name female villains. Out of those villains, I can only say Phantasm can be considered a BIG villain and thats just because of the movie. Not sure if anything else can be done with that character. I've never even heard of some of those and I've been a big Batman fan most of my life (clearly not enough though!)

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

Even if it was true that there are very few or no great female Batman villains, create one. That's what Dini and Timm did back in the day. For BTAS they created Harley, Roxy Rocket, Phantasm, the Red Claw and a few others. For STAS they created Livewire. For Batman Beyond they created Inque. I'm sure they created interesting female characters for Justice League and Justice League Unlimited.

But they wanted to do Penguin. And thought the gender swap would work great and it sparked a lot of ideas for them. Can hardly blame them for that. Dini and Timm also gender swaped Calendar Man into Calendar Girl "back in the day" and nobody seemed to mind or demand they create new characters instead.

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

This is my problem with both Penguins. They're both exactly what's wrong with modern entertainment. The creators of either have no real interest in actually doing the Penguin and have every interest in cynically using his name and brand recognition to tell stories about two completely different characters, instead of just creating their own characters.

A fair take. Exactly what's been happening with "The Batman", "Joker" and "The Penguin". I'd still argue Penguin is still pretty much classic Penguin in Caped Crusader only with the gender swap twist. But even so, it's only natural to keep trying new things. You say this is a modern problem yet Tim Burton's Penguin was also a radical reimagening of the character. Same as BTAS' take on Mr Freeze and MANY other villains. They didn't just do the characters as they were, they put their own spin on it. It's what keeps it all fresh, for better or worse.

[matirocker]

Originally Posted by Batmon77

I wish their take on Nocturna was the adult version and not a Wednesday homage.



She was a late 80's character that never really was continued by writers. But she has that Quasi-Vampire thing going on.
But as usual they are focusing on Selina as the romantic interest.

That was Timm's original intention. But they couldn't figure out a good story and ended up with the "Wednesday" version. There's even a Nocturna design made by Timm back in the BTAS days, when they couldn't use the character because of censorship.

[Batmon77]

Originally Posted by matirocker

A fair take. Exactly what's been happening with "The Batman", "Joker" and "The Penguin". I'd still argue Penguin is still pretty much classic Penguin in Caped Crusader only with the gender swap twist. But even so, it's only natural to keep trying new things. You say this is a modern problem yet Tim Burton's Penguin was also a radical reimagening of the character. Same as BTAS' take on Mr Freeze and MANY other villains. They didn't just do the characters as they were, they put their own spin on it. It's what keeps it all fresh, for better or worse.

This.

The bird-man Pengy from Batman Returns is NOT the traditional Ozwald.
But I gibe them props for sustaining his blue-blood origins, which is a character element thats been erased from Gotham and The Penguin.

Even Arkham Asylum had a Cobblepot Library in Gotham, that shows his family money, and probably was in cahoots with the Wayne money in Gotham's past.

[Zechs Merquise]

Originally Posted by matirocker

I've never even heard of some of those and I've been a big Batman fan most of my life (clearly not enough though!)

Well then, clearly an opportunity to bring lesser known villains to the spotlight

Originally Posted by matirocker

Dini and Timm also gender swaped Calendar Man into Calendar Girl "back in the day" and nobody seemed to mind or demand they create new characters instead.

Because first of all Calendar Man is a C-list Batman villain probably best known for being in The Long Halloween (and its sequels). Not one of Batman's signature villains

Secondly Calendar Girl isn't a 1:1 gender swap. She has a completely different name and backstory and only really utilises the same calendar gimmick. She isn't 'Julianna Day' and isn't basically Calendar Man in drag. In fact I might even go so far as to say that Calendar Girl is essentially a new character, just based on the original Calendar Man

Originally Posted by matirocker

You say this is a modern problem yet Tim Burton's Penguin was also a radical reimagening of the character.

Yes, and the problem with the Burton Batman films (and Timm's problem with them, because he got to read the script for Batman Returns) is that Burton wasn't really interested in doing the comics, either. He wanted the imagery and the iconography of Batman but he wasn't really interested in making Batman films, he was interested in making Tim Burton films.

Yes, you're correct that this isn't a new problem, but it's a lot more prevalent now because Hollywood are increasingly less willing to take a gamble on original properties, so they're strip mining established names and established franchises for content while being cynical about them and not really doing comics.

See, I never really understood the nostalgia for the Adam West Batman show until now. Because, if you look at that show, they're basically making fun of Batman, of Batman comics. The creators are basically saying 'look at how silly all of this stuff is'.

But, at the same time, the Adam West show was remarkably faithful to the 'New Look' Batman comics of the time. Yes, they're saying 'look at how silly this stuff is' but, at the same time, they weren't afraid to do comics and present Batman, as he was, on the silver screen, in all his glory.

But we don't get that now. Instead we get stuff like 'Gotham' or 'The Penguin', or even 'The Dark Knight', which are just thinly veiled crime dramas with Batman elements in them for the brand recognition

Originally Posted by matirocker

Same as BTAS' take on Mr Freeze and MANY other villains. They didn't just do the characters as they were, they put their own spin on it. It's what keeps it all fresh, for better or worse.

But BTAS' doing their spin on Mr Freeze wasn't really chopping and changing anything. Firstly, Mr Freeze didn't really have a backstory until BTAS came along. He was another C-list Batman villain (in fact, I think he was supposed to be dead in the comics at the time). Secondly BTAS didn't change anything that was established about Mr Freeze at all. He was always a scientist, who always needed a cryogenic suit after an accident and he always committed ice or cold themed crimes. BTAS changed none of that, they just fleshed him out, and in doing that they made him into one of Batman's signature villains

[Batmon77]

I recall Batman '66 having Mr. Freeze in his traditional cold suit and gun.
And in the same series, presented a Mr. Freeze who didn't wear a suit but wore a regular suit and was more business-like.

Or having 3 different Catwomans.

[stlcards]

I finally finished Season 1 and I just didn't care for it.

[Warm Gun]

I watched the first episode. Don't think I will continue. The digital animation looks so cheap. The thick outlines of Batman's eyes don't work at all.

1940s setting, but colored people everywhere. Everywhere. Several in positions of authority. Women too. Why even use the setting then? Could have touched on the racism and sexism back then, but no, had to make up history completely for diversity. Was less forced in Batman the Animated Series, which was more stuck in time with brutalist architecture but many modern tech elements, whereas this leans more into the 1940s. Black Gordon and lawyer Barbara Gordon bothered me especially. They made her hair light despite her dark skin.

Mrs. Cobblepot (Penguin, another character destruction) kills one of her sons for informing on her, which is illogical. The child she carried in her womb, gave birth to, gave so much of herself to. Someone reminded me that I have a Tony Soprano avatar and what happens in The Sopranos, but it was much better justified there, through all the meetings Tony had with his therapist, Dr. Melfi, who explained to him that his mother was a narcissist, and a childhood memory he shared of the woman pointing a knife at him. Penguin killed him like any henchman. Really poor taste and judgement.

Depressing move for Bruce Timm. To go back to old material, Batman again. Animation quality is so bad in this age of cheap streaming platforms competing. Digital looked cheap anyway, but now it's worse. Music also is nothing compared to The Animated Series. Streaming budgets are useless for this medium the industry regards as second to live action, very far beneath live action in fact.

[matirocker]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

1940s setting, but colored people everywhere. Everywhere. Several in positions of authority. Women too. Why even use the setting then?

Sooo in a super hero animated show set in a fictional city, in a time period which uses 40s fashion, cars, etc (they never explicity say which year it is) about a guy dressed up as a bat, that fights crime, including supernatural threats like a literal ghost and a vampire girl, what bothers you is that there's colored people and women in positions of power? You can buy all the fantastical elements but not a city with 40s setting that has a more equal society for all races and genders? Thats funny... Why use the setting? Because it looks awesome and fits with Batman like a glove.

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Could have touched on the racism and sexism back then,

You really want a Batman show to be about racism and sexism instead of Batman and his allies fighting villains? I sure don't.

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Black Gordon and lawyer Barbara Gordon bothered me especially.

Why? Makes sense since Gordon is also black in Matt Reeve's The Batman. Why do they bother you "especially"?

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Mrs. Cobblepot (Penguin, another character destruction) kills one of her sons for informing on her, which is illogical. The child she carried in her womb, gave birth to, gave so much of herself to.

Where in the show is it said that Penguin "gave so much of herself" for her kids? She doesn't seem to be attached to them very much despite being their mother.

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Penguin killed him like any henchman. Really poor taste and judgement.

That's the point... she kills one of her sons like it's nothing and doesn't seemed too bothered when she finds out she killed the wrong one. The bottom of the ocean filled with caskets tells you that she kills a lot of people.

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Animation quality is so bad in this age of cheap streaming platforms competing. Digital looked cheap anyway, but now it's worse. Music also is nothing compared to The Animated Series. Streaming budgets are useless for this medium the industry regards as second to live action, very far beneath live action in fact.

I have to agree with you on that.

Personally, I felt season 1 was underwhelming. I thought it was just ok. I hope season 2 improves. But some of the critisism I keep reading is just ridiculous.

[Warm Gun]

The Batman is a crappy movie at worst and a mediocre one at best, and I disapproved of a black Gordon there too. Make your own characters instead of race-swapping existing ones for your pathetic quotas.

It's the 1940s. The cars, top hats, suits, blouses, skirts, hairstyles, music and lack of any modern tech (present in The Animated Series) that I could spot say so. Slavery existed almost everywhere in the world and I'm supposed to believe the people of America in the world of Batman built their new world in the pursuit of wealth without exploiting and abusing other people, because they were just that good. Doesn't reflect human nature. Everyone is mixing at parties and the whites are allowing the blacks to ascend over them because no fights had to be fought. No Civil War, no Reconstruction, no Civil Rights Movement, because the Europeans came to the new land with pure intentions and cultivated the harsh wilderness completely by themselves, willingly, for moral reasons. Same with feminism. They're selective with history too. His Justice League show had a fascist country with a Hitler lookalike leader taking over Europe in the 1940s.

A mother sacrifices regardless. She carried him in her womb for nine months, had the little bastard push on her intestines until she got bad hemorrhoids, kept her from sleeping, made walking difficult, tore through her as she moaned and possibly cried. After that came all the money spent on him over the course of his childhood, and enough closeness and time with him that he can speak to her the way he does in the show. Makes no sense for her to just throw him in the trash without any care like any old newspaper. Distasteful, dumb, terrible.

[Zechs Merquise]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

The Batman is a crappy movie at worst and a mediocre one at best, and I disapproved of a black Gordon there too. Make your own characters instead of race-swapping existing ones for your pathetic quotas.

Funnily enough, if they actually knew comics, the character who succeeded Gordon when he retired as Commissioner at the end of No Man's Land was black. Could've used him

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

Funnily enough, if they actually knew comics, the character who succeeded Gordon when he retired as Commissioner at the end of No Man's Land was black. Could've used him

Assuming that comic is good, it's still apples and oranges. They did not alter Gordon, according to what you said.

[Zechs Merquise]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Assuming that comic is good, it's still apples and oranges. They did not alter Gordon, according to what you said.

No, I'm just saying there was an originally black character they could have used instead

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

No, I'm just saying there was an originally black character they could have used instead

Oh, my bad, I read, "if YOU actually knew comics," and then misinterpreted the rest.

[DrTobin]

Anyone know the original source where this guy got that there's a season 1 Blu-ray coming soon?
https://x.com/VHSDVDBLURAY4K/status/1920947772263411802

[dublinbluray108]

Is there any more updates about Season 1 of Batman: Caped Crusader coming to 4K & Blu-ray soon?