Linear PCM vs Bitstream

[Luis_A51]

Originally Posted by jcs913

Actually, if you have a newer capable receiver, like his 605, you should always set your PS3 to bitstream. His receiver should be able to decode PCM into 5.1, just not 7.1 The only time you do not set it is when you want to play the TrueHD track on BD's, then you have to set the PS3 to LPCM so it decodes the TrueHD track first and sends it out as PCM. His receiver can decode all the codecs correctly. And frankly, that is why you buy the receiver so it does the decoding for you.

False.

Firstly you dont "decode" pcm into anything, its already decoded. There is also no such thing as "better" decoding. So just because your receiver can decode it doesnt mean it has to. As long as your receiver can handle 5.1 PCM (or 7.1 PCM) then you should set it to PCM. THis way you dont have to go back and change the settings for TrueHD

With the PS3 there is no reason to own a receiver that does TrueHD or DTS MA through bitstream. The 1st reason is that the PS3 cannot send these as bitstream, the second being that having the receiver decode it does not provide any benefits. It is pure marketing. What you should REALLY look for when buying a receiver is 7.1 PCM support.

[jcs913]

Originally Posted by Luis_A51

False.

Firstly you dont "decode" pcm into anything, its already decoded. There is also no such thing as "better" decoding. So just because your receiver can decode it doesnt mean it has to. As long as your receiver can handle 5.1 PCM (or 7.1 PCM) then you should set it to PCM. THis way you dont have to go back and change the settings for TrueHD

With the PS3 there is no reason to own a receiver that does TrueHD or DTS MA through bitstream. The 1st reason is that the PS3 cannot send these as bitstream, the second being that having the receiver decode it does not provide any benefits. It is pure marketing. What you should REALLY look for when buying a receiver is 7.1 PCM support.

Actually, a high-quality receiver can decode and output codecs better than some players can, especially DTS-ES, like the post before yours stated. The better the DAC in a receiver, the more dynamic range the soundfield will have. When the PS3 decodes it, it only applies what the software in the cell processor tells it to apply. When a better quality BD player decodes the codec, like a Pioneer Elite, it applies more dynamic range to the sound then the standard that the PS3 applies.
It is a big difference in what you get out of the player. There are reasons the players are more money than others. They DO have better video and audio processing. A DTS track is not decoded the same in every player. The bitstreaming of audio is key to a receivers worth.
You are correct, a PCM track is the same whether it comes from the receiver or player. As for the new HD codecs, when the new players come out and can bitstream those codecs, you will hear a different sound from those than you will the PS3 decoding. You are correct, the PS3 will never bitstream those codecs, as the HDMI 1.3 was not really a true 1.3 plug. I do not know why the DTS-HDMA firmware has not hit yet. I am a little worried as to the complexity of the decoding in relation to the PS3's ability to truly decode it. Again, the better the player, the easier it can do things.
Do not get me wrong, I own a PS3 and think it is the best player on the market. But if the format is moving forward, the audio needs to also. That is why all these new players are coming out. The PS3's cell can only do so much. Remeber, it is there for many other things, besides playing BD movies. Be careful with your cynicism with the 'marketing' comment. Any audiophile will tell you that the better the player/receiver, the more you will get out of it.

[vanstone]

With the ability to Play PCM is there any reason to have anything else? oh wait people are still using HD-DVD's

[Footloose301]

Originally Posted by vanstone

With the ability to Play PCM is there any reason to have anything else? oh wait people are still using HD-DVD's

They claim TrueHD sounds just as good..... I've heard both on the same movie and PCM sounds better hands down

P.S. You should probably change your sig..... almost sounds like you're being a sarcastic HD DVD fanboy..... just a heads up

[vanstone]

Originally Posted by Footloose301

Whats that all about?

Can't tell if you're a troll.... or if you're taking that quote in your signature from somebody else. You should probably change it before people start up....

We all know PCM is the way to go..... and your signature says its a waste of space and its coming from a "true HD DVD fan!" <---meaning you?

No really! If you have PCM is there a need for any of the other formats?

Like Dolby Digital, DTS, TrueHD, etc...etc... dont all of them just compress PCM?

Sorry about the Sig, it's a quote from someone on another forum, and is meant to show how HD DVD fans! try to defend there choice.

I am Blu-ray all the way, check out some of my other posts.

[Footloose301]

Originally Posted by vanstone

No really! If you have PCM is there a need for any of the other formats?

Like Dolby Digital, DTS, TrueHD, etc...etc... dont all of them just compress PCM?

Sorry about the Sig, it's a quote from someone on another forum, and is meant to show how HD DVD fans! try to defend there choice.

I am Blu-ray all the way, check out some of my other posts.

Gotcha.

Yes, if its not labeled PCM then its compressed, unless you're talking about DTS HD-MA.

[gand41f]

Originally Posted by jcs913

Actually, a high-quality receiver can decode and output codecs better than some players can, especially DTS-ES, like the post before yours stated. The better the DAC in a receiver, the more dynamic range the soundfield will have.

DAC = digital-to-analog converter

PCM is also digital, there's no DAC involved.

enjoy
gandalf

[neckedness]

You know, in APOCALYPTO, the menu sound clicks can be heard when set to Linear PCM, but when set to Bitstream, there's no clicks.

[MouseRider]

Originally Posted by neckedness

You know, in APOCALYPTO, the menu sound clicks can be heard when set to Linear PCM, but when set to Bitstream, there's no clicks.

Yes, that's because the menu clicks can be inserted into the PCM stream very easily.

To insert the clicks into bitstream mode, the player would have to decode the bitstream, insert the click, then recode the bitstream and send it to you, can be done but I would guess not worth the trouble.

[sewerdog]

I have the yamaha 465 what would i set it at for tru-hd or hd-dts the manuel has me confused

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by sewerdog

I have the yamaha 465 what would i set it at for tru-hd or hd-dts the manuel has me confused

In most cases, it is best to set the player to output audio in PCM and set the receiver to Standard (Straight) or Direct.

[MAL01]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

In most cases, it is best to set the player to output audio in PCM and set the receiver to Standard (Straight) or Direct.

BD, are you saying i should put my Oppo to output in LPCM and my Pioneer SC-05 to PCM Direct?

[RBBrittain]

Originally Posted by sewerdog

I have the yamaha 465 what would i set it at for tru-hd or hd-dts the manuel has me confused

Your receiver will work either way. What player do you have?

(Edit: Big Daddy's response is good--it's my basic philosophy too--but there ARE some players that won't decode to LPCM. That's why I ask what player you have.)

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by RBBrittain

Your receiver will work either way. What player do you have?

(Edit: Big Daddy's response is good--it's my basic philosophy too--but there ARE some players that won't decode to LPCM. That's why I ask what player you have.)

Almost all BD players could handle Dolby TrueHD. Some of the older players could not handle DTS HD Master Audio. You were limited to the core lossy DTS surround. Even PS3 fat could not do that. However, Sony made a firmware update available that allowed the old PS3 to handle DTS HD MA.

[LembasBread]

Originally Posted by gand41f

DAC = digital-to-analog converter

PCM is also digital, there's no DAC involved.

Actually there is. In the receiver the LPCM hits the DAC goes to the pre-amps and monitor amps out to your monitor speakers. Without a DAC, there's no way to hear and amplify digitally delivered audio.

[MouseRider]

Originally Posted by LembasBread

Actually there is. In the receiver the LPCM hits the DAC goes to the pre-amps and monitor amps out to your monitor speakers. Without a DAC, there's no way to hear and amplify digitally delivered audio.

I believe what Gand41f was trying to say in responding to jcs913 is that decoding from a bitstream to PCM does not involve DACs as at that point, everything is still in the digital domain.

So if you assume that the implementation of bitstream decoding chips are all standardized, the price point or brand of the player, receiver or processor doing the decoding should not affect the quality of the resulting PCM stream.

Compare that with going from PCM to sound which will involve a DAC, as you've correctly pointed out, there might be more factors to consider as to quality because based on the quality of the DACs and the quality of the analog stage components.

UPDATE: just saw your last post which says the same thing, we must have hit submit at the same time

[gand41f]

Originally Posted by MouseRider

I believe what Gand41f was trying to say in responding to jcs913 is that decoding from a bitstream to PCM does not involve DACs as at that point, everything is still in the digital domain.

Yes. Sorry for not quoting enough context to make it clear enough. My bad.

enjoy
gandalf

[jcs913]

Originally Posted by gand41f

Yes. Sorry for not quoting enough context to make it clear enough. My bad.

enjoy
gandalf

What about DTS-ES or DDEX tracks. Does your PS3 apply that rear surround 6th speaker when it sends it out LPCM?

[LembasBread]

Originally Posted by jcs913

Actually, a high-quality receiver can decode and output codecs better than some players can, especially DTS-ES, like the post before yours stated. The better the DAC in a receiver, the more dynamic range the soundfield will have. When the PS3 decodes it, it only applies what the software in the cell processor tells it to apply. When a better quality BD player decodes the codec, like a Pioneer Elite, it applies more dynamic range to the sound then the standard that the PS3 applies.
It is a big difference in what you get out of the player. There are reasons the players are more money than others. They DO have better video and audio processing. A DTS track is not decoded the same in every player. The bitstreaming of audio is key to a receivers worth.
You are correct, a PCM track is the same whether it comes from the receiver or player. As for the new HD codecs, when the new players come out and can bitstream those codecs, you will hear a different sound from those than you will the PS3 decoding. You are correct, the PS3 will never bitstream those codecs, as the HDMI 1.3 was not really a true 1.3 plug. I do not know why the DTS-HDMA firmware has not hit yet. I am a little worried as to the complexity of the decoding in relation to the PS3's ability to truly decode it. Again, the better the player, the easier it can do things.
Do not get me wrong, I own a PS3 and think it is the best player on the market. But if the format is moving forward, the audio needs to also. That is why all these new players are coming out. The PS3's cell can only do so much. Remeber, it is there for many other things, besides playing BD movies. Be careful with your cynicism with the 'marketing' comment. Any audiophile will tell you that the better the player/receiver, the more you will get out of it.

Decoding is decoding is decoding. There's no "better DTS decoding" in players or receivers. The real audio difference comes with the quality of the DSP's or DAC's in the players/receivers. While I agree that high end receivers usually will have better DAC's and pre-amps - which is where the character of the audio is shaped - decoding within the player and sending it out as LPCM will have absolutely no difference in the audio quality than having it bitstreamed and letting the receiver do the decoding. In fact it's safer to send the audio as LPCM and have the receiver set to Direct or Pure mode to bypass many unnecessary DSP's that manufacturers like to add to these machines. As I've said, the Onkyo TX-SR605 inexplicably boosts all Dolby audio tracks by +3dB compared to sending the audio as LPCM from both the PS3 and my Denon DVD-756 DVD player.

It's the players that have multi-channel analog outputs that would have percievable differences in audio as they're doing all the DAC-ing and pre-amping within the player (plus extra DSP's if you're using bass management). It's then that you might be matching cheap DAC/pre-amps with high end amps or vice-versa that would cause disparity in audio.

Sending audio as LPCM from the PS3 should sound exactly the same as LPCM audio from a Pioneer Elite BD player running through the same pre/pro or receiver.

[gand41f]

Originally Posted by LembasBread

As I've said, the Onkyo TX-SR605 inexplicably boosts all Dolby audio tracks by +3dB compared to sending the audio as LPCM from both the PS3 and my Denon DVD-756 DVD player.

My Onkyo HT-R330 does it too. It is really rather annoying when I'm trying to compare DD bitstream to LPCM.

enjoy
gandalf