Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by MCT

In fact, replace puppet Yoda with CGI Yoda. That would be AWESOME.

Sarcasm aside, I think that would be a welcomed change. Wasn't it a real consideration?

[Beast]

Originally Posted by MCT

Lucas might as well go all the way with the SE's, since people don't care about the changes and are going to buy them anyways. Have digital stunt doubles of Vader and Obi Wan fighting like super-athletic acrobats. Add in bullet time effects when the guy reaches for his gun in the cantina and Obi cuts his arm off. Add in a new scene with Yoda teaching Luke how to fight like a true Jedi Master by hopping all over the jungle like a crazed green monster. In fact, replace puppet Yoda with CGI Yoda. That would be AWESOME.

A lot of those changes make no sense and are unnecessary.

The changes in the films that Lucas have made make perfect sense.

Obi-Wan and Vader's duel is fine, since they're both old and partially crippled by the time of the OT.

No reason to add bullet time. It's crappy and over used, and has no place in the films. And isn't in the PT either.

Yoda was teaching Luke how to leap all over the place. Did you miss the training montage? But Luke's not built for Yoda's style.

Neither Luke or Anakin's saber styles were the more acrobatic style. Especially Anakin who preferred using force to technique.

Lucas already has said there's no reason to replace puppet Yoda in the OT. So that's just silly.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Alpha

Sarcasm aside, I think that would be a welcomed change. Wasn't it a real consideration?

I don't have a problem with the puppet in the OT. But thankfully the fugly Yoda in TPM has been replaced.

[OG Pooh]

Ya know what... I just thought of this.

I hope he keeps changing them forever. In all honesty, we already have the original versions (and I'm sure we'll get them on BD), so why not keep it fresh by giving us something new every few years? Like I said, I can find parts of the original, all special editions, OT, PT, etc, etc, etc that I like & don't like. There are parts of the original ESB that I prefer over the SE and there are parts of the SE that I prefer over the original. No version, in my opinion is superior in every way. While I seen every film in the theater during it's original release, I wear no nostalgic, rose colored glasses when I look at any of the chapters.

[Indyjones]

Originally Posted by Beast

I don't have a problem with the puppet in the OT. But thankfully the fugly Yoda in TPM has been replaced.

The puppet in the OT is perfectly fine and doesn't need to be messed with. I don't think it was even ever a consideration. Lucas and Rob Coleman confirmed that this change would never happen. They did it to a degree, but it was only for testing for AOTC.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by Indyjones

The puppet in the OT is perfectly fine and doesn't need to be messed with. I don't think it was even ever a consideration. Lucas and Rob Coleman confirmed that this change would never happen. They did it to a degree, but it was only for testing for AOTC.

I agree. In fact, GL said that the CGI Yoda in AotC & Sith was meant to be as much like the puppet as possible. Why make the CGI behave like the puppet if you don't like the puppet?

[nametag]

"Show don't tell" is pretty funny considering how much of a dialogue in the prequels consist of characters explaining the plot to each other. Yes all movies (especially action/adventure ones like SW) have plot contrivances, but they don't all make you feel like they're contrived when you're watching it. Within your suspension of disbelief, you have to buy what is happening, and to have characters mechanically just be of service to the plot stops them from seeming 'real', or as real as they could be. I personally don't see how anyone could feel much of anything towards characters who speak in such a laughably unnatural way (don't get me started on the Anakin/Padme love scenes...)

In some ways I think the prequels get worse because they sort of force you to take them seriously, at least TPM works ok as fun kids movie as opposed to a faux-Shakespearian tragedy like ROTS (though I did rather like Palpatine). But then I was a kid when I saw TPM, ROTS not so much. And obviously they get more 'action-y' as they go along, and are more exciting. Am waiting for the BD release so I can watch them from start to finish again, and solidify my opinion on that matter. It's been too long since I've seen all of them (though I did watch them a lot).

Sort of running in circles here... people who bash the prequels and/or George Lucas are accused of being trolls who don't know what they're talking about and are bashing for the sake of it, or, like, because it's the 'cool' thing to do. Lots of 'no you're wrong' bouncing back and forth instead of a discussion. But then I suppose I've just contributed to this, so there we go...

[MCT]

Originally Posted by Beast

Obi-Wan and Vader's duel is fine, since they're both old and partially crippled by the time of the OT.

wow. You've been the main guy raving about how Obi and Vader's fight in ANH is the worst in the entire saga BECAUSE they're old and crippled (whatever), now it's fine? Your logic is that if it's not faster and more intense then it's unacceptable, so why would you have a problem if Lucas turned them into Cirque Du Soliel performers?

[Beast]

Originally Posted by MCT

wow. You've been the main guy raving about how Obi and Vader's fight in ANH is the worst in the entire saga BECAUSE they're old and crippled (whatever), now it's fine? Your logic is that if it's not faster and more intense then it's unacceptable, so why would you have a problem if Lucas turned them into Cirque Du Soliel performers?

I never once said it needed to be changed. Just that it was the worst lightsaber fight of the Saga.

It's only the verbal banter between Obi-Wan and Vader that salvages it from being painfully bad.

It fits the age and physical ability of the combatants. But it does look off when you compare it to Vader's ESB or ROTJ duels.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by MCT

wow. You've been the main guy raving about how Obi and Vader's fight in ANH is the worst in the entire saga BECAUSE they're old and crippled (whatever), now it's fine? Your logic is that if it's not faster and more intense then it's unacceptable, so why would you have a problem if Lucas turned them into Cirque Du Soliel performers?

The old man vs. half a man was an excuse George used as to why the Obi-Wan/Vader duel was so lethargic in ANH. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your POV) that excuse falls apart when you see Vader duel Luke in ESB & RotJ and when you see Dukoo battle Ben & Anakin in both AotC & RotS. The half men & old (Jedi) men seem to battle quite nicely in GL's world.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

The old man vs. half a man was an excuse George used as to why the Obi-Wan/Vader duel was so lethargic in ANH. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your POV) that excuse falls apart when you see Vader duel Luke in ESB & RotJ and when you see Dukoo battle Ben & Anakin in both AotC & RotS. The half men & old (Jedi) men seem to battle quite nicely in GL's world.

You also have to consider that Obi-Wan hasn't used his lightsaber for more than a nightlight in 20 years.

Where as Dooku was still a fairly active Jedi/Sith Lord at the time of the Prequels. Unlike out of shape Obi-Wan.

Plus Obi-Wan takes a couple of major injuries over the course of the Prequels from both Dooku and Anakin.

He's stabbed in the leg by Dooku in AotC, and Dooku damages his legs in RotS when he drops the walkway onto them after taking him out of the fight.

Plus he takes one or two hits in the legs from Anakin in RotS also. Not to mention that Vader's also toying with Obi-Wan in ANH, while Obi-Wan is trying to buy the others precious time to make their escape. He knew he wasn't leaving alive. Hence all the bantering the both do during the fight.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by Beast

You also have to consider that Obi-Wan hasn't used his lightsaber for more than a nightlight in 20 years.

Where as Dooku was still a fairly active Jedi/Sith Lord at the time of the Prequels. Unlike out of shape Obi-Wan.

Plus Obi-Wan takes a couple of major injuries over the course of the Prequels from both Dooku and Anakin.

He's stabbed in the leg by Dooku in AotC, and Dooku damages his legs in RotS when he drops the walkway onto them after taking him out of the fight. Plus he takes a few hits from Anakin in RotS also. Vader's also toying with Obi-Wan in ANH, hence all the bantering.

Personally, I think Ben went to Vader in ANH to be killed because he knew he would be of better use to Luke from the other side. That said...

I'm sure Ben kept up his Jedi training on Tatooine. I seriously doubt he sat around doing nothing but attending the occasional pod race. As for the injuries he suffered... The ones he got from Dukoo didn't stop him from defeating Anakin. The one's he got from Anakin weren't anywhere near as bad as the one's he gave him. Yet Anakin/Vader managed to become one of the most feared figures in the galaxy. No offense, but your argument doesn't hold up.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

Personally, I think Ben went to Vader in ANH to be killed because he knew he would be of better use to Luke from the other side. That said...

I'm sure Ben kept up his Jedi training on Tatooine. I seriously doubt he sat around doing nothing but attending the occasional pod race. As for the injuries he suffered... The ones he got from Dukoo didn't stop him from defeating Anakin. The one's he got from Anakin weren't anywhere near as bad as the one's he gave him. Yet Anakin/Vader managed to become one of the most feared figures in the galaxy. No offense, but your argument doesn't hold up.

Sure they do. Besides, Vader wasn't feared because he was lopping people in half left and right.

It's questionable if he's all that feared in ANH anyway. Considering he's Tarkin's "Boy", and other people outright talk back to him.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by Beast

Sure they do. Besides, Vader wasn't feared because he was lopping people in half left and right.

All I'm saying is if you look at Vader's duels with Luke, then look at his ANH duel with Ben, they simply don't jive. You say Vader was toying with Ben. He may well have been, but when Vader fought Luke, he was even older, yet much more agile. His fighting style (in both Luke duels) doesn't even match up with how he fought Ben. The Ben/Vader ANH duel... There's just no continuity with every other duel in the entire saga. And the reasons given (by GL himself) are proven wrong during other duels.

As for him being feared and subordinates talking back to him in ANH... That always bothered me too. To be honest, I believe in ANH, Vader was just a lackey. A remnant of the old, outdated ways of the Force.

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by Alpha

Sarcasm aside, I think that would be a welcomed change. Wasn't it a real consideration?

I would like that very much and think it's overdue!

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

I agree. In fact, GL said that the CGI Yoda in AotC & Sith was meant to be as much like the puppet as possible. Why make the CGI behave like the puppet if you don't like the puppet?

Because you want it to behave like a puppet, but not obviously be a muppet.

[aiman04]

Yes, Lucas himself has said that the Yoda puppet in the OT will not be replaced with CGI.

This proves that Lucas is not obsessed with CGI. Whatever he thinks work, CGI or practical he will use them and not change it. The Yoda puppet design in TPM was, well "weird" so he had to change it. Not everyone realizes that there are more model & practical effects in the prequels than CGI.

[timE1985]

Originally Posted by Beast

Yes, it was. Which is why it had such an emotional impact and I couldn't enjoy repeated viewings.

I have watched it more on DVD of course. But it's still the movie with the least rewatchability due to depressing it is.

I think this is the fundamental difference between us. I feel that movies are good because they induce some emotion. Without it, RotS and ESB would be more like TPM.

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

You are the definition of a threadcrapper.

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

and wrong, again, but I know it's pretty much hopeless to argue with you guys. You just don't seem to think for yourselves.

Is it necessary to directly insult people? Or can we have a civilized, intelligent debate?

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

Wrong I became a fan in 1997.

I assume when you saw the SE in theaters? I had already been a fan at that point and thought the CGI looked at of place on Tatooine. At least in those versions, David Prose was around the campfire as opposed to Hayden Christensen. About the only change I liked was the one made to Alderan and the Deathstar explosions.

Honestly though, it all boils down to subjectivity and opinion. The only thing I hope can be agreed upon is that we are each able to view the edition we prefer. It's not alright for Lucas to force his ret-cons on fans of the older films by keeping the original versions locked away. I'm shocked that 365 people voted against the added value of having the ability to watch the Classic Edition in addition to the SE. It just seems so out of character for our community. Aren't we the same people that lobbied for seemless branching of the Watchmen?

[Beast]

Originally Posted by timE1985

I think this is the fundamental difference between us. I feel that movies are good because they induce some emotion. Without it, RotS and ESB would be more like TPM.

Never said that the emotional impact is bad, how are you even reading that into what I said?

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by timE1985

At least in those versions, David Prose was around the campfire as opposed to Hayden Christensen. About the only change I liked was the one made to Alderan and the Deathstar explosions.

It couldn't have been that important to you or you would have known it was Sebastian Shaw and not David Prowse originally at the end of ROTJ.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

It couldn't have been that important to you or you would have known it was Sebastian Shaw and not David Prowse originally at the end of ROTJ.

Indeed. Clearly people don't really care. They just like trashing Lucas whenever possible.