Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by Gaius Marius

Then why can't anyone do that given the proper instruction?

Emphasis on 'proper?'

If all it took was training and hard work, then that would negate the whole "force sensitive" and the "Force runs strong in my family" ideas.

Emphasis on the training. The Jedi Council initially judged a child from the arse-end of space with an abnormally freakish midi count higher than their most prominent Master as less of a concern than the difficulties in properly training him.

I don't see them as mutually exclusive, just a sign of Anakin's unusual nature/conception being passed on to his children. It hasn't been close to established that such inheritance is common to other Jedi or not, has it?

[octagon]

Actually the no marriage thing makes a lot of sense.

They'd probably tend to fall in love with each other and after a few generations what would you have - European Royal families with really strong force powers.

They'd be better off with Palpatine.

[IndefinentBlu]

In ROTJ when luke surrenders to vader, luke tells him to come with him to which vader replies:

"OBI-WAN ONCE THOUGHT AS YOU DO, YOU DON'T KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARKSIDE,I MUST OBEY MY MASTER."

When? in the previous episodes did obi-wan ever tell vader to come with him, did i miss something??

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by indefinentnj

In ROTJ when luke surrenders to vader, luke tells him to come with him to which vader replies:

"OBI-WAN ONCE THOUGHT AS YOU DO, YOU DON'T KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARKSIDE,I MUST OBEY MY MASTER."

When? in the previous episodes did obi-wan ever tell vader to come with him, did i miss something??

During the build up to the duel, both Padme and Obi-Wan beseech Anakin to come to his senses, and Obi-Wan yammers some more during the duel.

[Duffy12]

Here is the picasaweb site for the Empire changes if anybody is interested-




https://picasaweb.google.com/doubleo...004ChangesESB#

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Imrahil2001

You're seriously arguing that anyone can be 'trained' to do what Jedi do?

Maybe not "anyone", perhaps many.

It all depends on the "point of view" taken here.


The force, as it is presented in the OT, to some extent or another seems like it's something that can be learned by "anyone". Obi Wan describes it as binding everything together, etc. If the force is "all around us" (as Obi Wan puts it), then why does that mean only certain people can manipulate it? Why are there limits on who can be trained?

About the only thing that really in any way contradicts this or suggests that some individuals are more "special" in their force-wielding potential in the OT is the whole notion that the force "runs strong" in Luke's family... but of course that concept gets blown right out the window in the PT due to the whole Jedi can't marry/have kids thing.

Frankly, even though it wasn't 100% clear in the OT, the whole introduction of the midichlorians in the PT just raises more questions about the force than it answers. According to Star Wars Wookieepedia on the subject:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Midi-chlorian

The magnitude of the midi-chlorian count served as a measure of one's potential in the Force,[8] though there were other inheritable characteristics that could influence Force ability as well.[9] Indeed, though Force ability often meant a high midi-chlorian count, it was not always the case.[10] While some medical theories postulated that the midi-chlorians created the connection between more macroscopic organisms and the Force, some Jedi believed that, contrarily, the midi-chlorians were created by the Force to serve as the link between it and other life.[3] Midi-chlorian counts did not indicate an upper limit to Force ability; the possibility existed for a Jedi to achieve a connection to the Force on an equivalent level to a Jedi with a higher count.[2]

So, in other words, it's all a big cluster-****.

People with lower counts can still train to be as good as those with higher counts (the minimum required isn't specified, but since all life apparently has at least some amount of them, it implies at least some very small amount of potential in all living things.... of course I'm sure the Jedi look for those with the higher count to give them the initial advantage, kind of like being really tall and playing basketball. It doesn't mean that a shorter person can't train really hard and hold his own on the court, it's just that he has an initial distinct disadvantage).

While maybe not necessarily all people/being can truly become Jedi (just as not everybody in real life will have what it takes to become a professional athlete, even if they train really hard), learning is still a very, very important factor, and under the right circumstances can be used by those who would seem to be far less likely to be a potential Jedi.

[Gaius Marius]

Originally Posted by Uxi

Emphasis on 'proper?'



Emphasis on the training. The Jedi Council initially judged a child from the arse-end of space with an abnormally freakish midi count higher than their most prominent Master as less of a concern than the difficulties in properly training him.

I don't see them as mutually exclusive, just a sign of Anakin's unusual nature/conception being passed on to his children. It hasn't been close to established that such inheritance is common to other Jedi or not, has it?

Which further supports my view that it is all random Basically, all it takes to become a Jedi is just pure, dumb luck

If it is not inherited (either it just isn't how the Force works or the Jedi don't procreate), then Jedi just pop out of nowhere for no reason

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by Gaius Marius

Which further supports my view that it is all random Basically, all it takes to become a Jedi is just pure, dumb luck

"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck."

If it is not inherited (either it just isn't how the Force works or the Jedi don't procreate), then Jedi just pop out of nowhere for no reason

Force ability has taken two tracks in the EU: the original one was that anyone could do it, if they believed. Han was a cynic, so he can't. He's seen alot of crazy stuff, but it's all just a bunch of "simple tricks and nonsense", etc. The second track, primarily started by the RPG guys was that there was "Force sensitivity."

In either case, they still need the 'nuture' for the 'nature.' Also a lot like the Bene Gesserit...

[greg_achen]

Rolling Stones 1999 Jar Jar Binks Cover Story

The link should serve as a reminder to everyone that Episode 1 was initially being received well by critics and fans alike, until it became the popular thing to hate on it.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Imrahil2001

You're seriously arguing that anyone can be 'trained' to do what Jedi do?

There was no implication otherwise in Star Wars...don't fault audiences for arguing information Lucas never gave them, and the false impressions that Lucas created.

"You see? You can do it!"
-Obi Wan Kenobi

Notice this isn't

"You see? It's in your blood!"

Point made, exit stage left.

[gettodamoofies]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

There was no implication otherwise in Star Wars...don't fault audiences for arguing information Lucas never gave them, and the false impressions that Lucas created.

"You see? You can do it!"
-Obi Wan Kenobi

Notice this isn't

"You see? It's in your blood!"

Point made, exit stage left.

Unfortunately I don't agree that your point is made at all. Luke becoming a Jedi is just like Harry Potter being trained as a wizard. Both had the raw ability prior to training, it was just never made aware to them that they could be more than what they were. Your quote is not definitive - it may be family related or it may be all training based around self-belief. This one on the other hand...:

"The Force is strong in my family. My father has it...I have it...and...my sister has it."

Now that clearly implies that abilities can run in a family. Does it make it the only way? No, but it's far more specific than a vague Obi Wan line to Luke which could be construed as nothing more than encouragement for him to keep further discovering his ability.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by atexp80

Unfortunately I don't agree that your point is made at all. Luke becoming a Jedi is just like Harry Potter being trained as a wizard. Both had the raw ability prior to training, it was just never made aware to them that they could be more than what they were. Your quote is not definitive - it may be family related or it may be all training based around self-belief. This one on the other hand...:

"The Force is strong in my family. My father has it...I have it...and...my sister has it."

Now that clearly implies that abilities can run in a family. Does it make it the only way? No, but it's far more specific than a vague Obi Wan line to Luke which could be construed as nothing more than encouragement for him to keep further discovering his ability.

Well, in my defense, I said "in Star Wars". Return of the Jedi wasn't until six years later. All we knew in Star Wars was that the Jedi order was wiped out by Darth Vader, and that "you see, you can do it!" if you "stretch out with your feelings". The biological angle was nowhere to be found in the first two films, along with the idea Luke and Leia were siblings.

[JamesKurtovich]

Indeed, Luke had exceptional abilities even before training. As the previous poster stated, kind of like Potter and his abilities before becoming a Wizard.

He used to bullseye wamp rats in his T-16.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by greg_achen

Rolling Stones 1999 Jar Jar Binks Cover Story

The link should serve as a reminder to everyone that Episode 1 was initially being received well by critics and fans alike, until it became the popular thing to hate on it.

http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/r...enace-19990519

Here's the first line from the Rolling Stone review linked to in that article...

"The actors are wallpaper, the jokes are juvenile, there's no romance, and the dialogue lands with the thud of a computer-instruction manual".

I guess that could be considered being received well.

From a certain point of view

[octagon]

Roger Ebert's positive review took a very similar tone.

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/...905170301/1023

Set against awesome backdrops, the characters in "The Phantom Menace" inhabit a plot that is little more complex than the stories I grew up on in science-fiction magazines. The whole series sometimes feel like a cover from Thrilling Wonder Stories, come to life. The dialogue is pretty flat and straightforward, although seasoned with a little quasi-classical formality, as if the characters had read but not retained "Julius Caesar." I wish the "Star Wars" characters spoke with more elegance and wit (as Gore Vidal's Greeks and Romans do), but dialogue isn't the point, anyway: These movies are about new things to look at.

A perfectly legitimate position (and one that could fairly be applied to A Ne - I can't do it - Star Wars) but hardly a ringing endorsement.

He also touched on this whole question of its reception at the time.

If it were the first "Star Wars" movie, "The Phantom Menace" would be hailed as a visionary breakthrough. But this is the fourth movie of the famous series, and we think we know the territory; many of the early reviews have been blase, paying lip service to the visuals and wondering why the characters aren't better developed. How quickly do we grow accustomed to wonders.

It would seem the initial reception was at best mixed, no? It was certainly mixed enough that he felt compelled to open his own review by addressing it.

And again, the opening line has something of a damning with faint praise quality to it. Isn't he basically saying 'people would be going nuts over this stuff if they hadn't already seen it three times'?

*shrug*

[greg_achen]

Originally Posted by octagon

Here's the first line from the Rolling Stone review linked to in that article...

"The actors are wallpaper, the jokes are juvenile, there's no romance, and the dialogue lands with the thud of a computer-instruction manual".

I guess that could be considered being received well.

From a certain point of view

You obviously did not even bother to click the link I posted and instead went to RottenTomatoes.com because I posted a link to the Rolling Stones article on Episode I, not their review which came later.

The first few lines of the article I posted are as follows:

Be warned: Secrets will be revealed here from the set of Star Wars: Episode I — The Phantom Menace. Things that sensitive readers may not want to know — like a report about R2-D2 and his bong, or Yoda cursing out his human co-stars. But we're getting ahead of ourselves. The real story here is the creation of Jar Jar Binks — a klutzy, floppy-eared amphibian with his own language ("How wude!") who bumbles away with every scene he's in. Jar Jar is one of many Gungans, a froggy race that dwells in a spectacular underwater city on the planet Naboo.

Nice job on trying to make me sound like an idiot though.

[JamesKurtovich]

I don't read reviews for Star Wars movies, although I recently watched all of the RLM reviews because they're hilarious. But I do know that within the first 10 minutes of TPM, I thought, "I have a bad feeling about this."

[octagon]

Originally Posted by greg_achen

You obviously did not even bother to click the link I posted and instead went to RottenTomatoes.com because I posted a link to the Rolling Stones article on Episode I, not their review which came later.

As it happens I did click on your link. And between the third and fourth paragraphs of that Rolling Stone article I found a link to the Rolling Stone review.

Hence the words 'Rolling Stone review linked to in that article'.

I thought I was pretty clear as to what I was talking about and where I found it.

Umm, sorry?

[octagon]

Originally Posted by JamesKurtovich

I don't read reviews for Star Wars movies. But I do know that within the first 10 minutes of TPM, I thought, "I have a bad feeling about this."

It took more than ten minutes for me. In fact, to be fair it was awfully freaking cool early on when the sabers ignited and all you could see were the two blades through the clouds of gas.

I don't think they lost me for good until about an hour into the pod race.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Duffy12

Here is the picasaweb site for the Empire changes if anybody is interested-

https://picasaweb.google.com/doubleo...004ChangesESB#

Stewart forgot one change, something I noticed for a looooong time:

During the intro of Vader's fleet, the first "full" shot we see of the Executor (Vader's SSD) there are 2 destroyers underneath it. But there are engine-light effects for three destroyers. Then it's like somebody realized that there are only two and abruptly the engines for the empty space disappear mid shot.
This was fixed in the SE.