Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[The Doof]

Originally Posted by Beard Esquire

The PT make Anakin out to be a powerful idiot.

And it is frustrating that Obi-wan was such a puss. He is described as a General in ANH. But obviously every Jedi is a general, so big deal. We hear Grevious "Oh, it's the awesome General Kenobi" but we never get to see any reason for this reputation. Just the opposite. With Lucas it is always "Tell don't show."

Why does Obi-wan just lie there at the end of AOTC? He has a couple of cuts! Yet he is paralyzed. he doesn't even try to help Yoda lift that column. But right after he just gets up and walks around.

he has his ass handed to him by Maul, Dooku (twice) and Greivous. he lucks out with Maul and Greivous. That gun gag demeaned his status as a Jedi imo. He's a shitty pilot and keeps having to have his ass saved.

God, how I wish Kenneth Branagh had been cast and the character had been treated with the reverence he deserved. You can't imagine Alec Guiness having to be saved by anybody.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

He doesn't need any "attachment to his mother" to have a convincing journey to the dark side. Like, not at all.

We also don't need the pod race to establish Anakin (if ever there was a scene meant solely to inspire a video game, this is it), nor do we need Qui-Gon (even though I do like the character), we certainly, certainly don't need Sebulba, Jar Jar or Watto. I don't even know how this is a question.

And yes, a hybrid of Alien and Braveheart with lightsabres would be awesome.

A better way for the PT to go, would have been to establish Anakin as an extremely powerful, charismatic, likable hero figure, but make him a little bit roguish with an achilles heel like pride, ego, jealousy... they could still use the threat of losing his love as the catalyst for his turn. If he was an extremely likable character his turn to the dark side would be that much more powerful. Since he went from whiny boy to whiny teen to emo twenty-something, I never gave a rats ass about his turn.

Originally Posted by The Doof

You just answered your own question.

Okay, I thought so. Then I simply have to say that I got extremely lucky the prequels turned out the way they did and that they met and even surpassed my expectations. I wouldn't be interested in a Aliens/Braveheart video-game-style rendition of Star Wars. That's not Star Wars to me at all! Lucas stood by his themes and style and principles against fan-demands and the zeitgeist.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Okay, I thought so. Then I simply have to say that I got extremely lucky the prequels turned out the way they did and that they met and even surpassed my expectations. I wouldn't be interested in a Aliens/Braveheart video-game-style rendition of Star Wars. That's not Star Wars to me at all! Lucas stood by his themes and style and principles against fan-demands and the zeitgeist.

I don't think it's possible to make a series of movies that resembles a video game more than the prequel trilogy.

Strange that you make that parallel when "it's just a big video game commercial" is one of the complaints I hear leveled at it regularly.

[Weirded Wonder]

Originally Posted by The Doof

And it is frustrating that Obi-wan was such a puss. He is described as a General in ANH. But obviously every Jedi is a general, so big deal. We hear Grevious "Oh, it's the awesome General Kenobi" but we never get to see any reason for this reputation. Just the opposite. With Lucas it is always "Tell don't show."

Why does Obi-wan just lie there at the end of AOTC? He has a couple of cuts! Yet he is paralyzed. he doesn't even try to help Yoda lift that column. But right after he just gets up and walks around.

he has his ass handed to him by Maul, Dooku (twice) and Greivous. he lucks out with Maul and Greivous. That gun gag demeaned his status as a Jedi imo. He's a shitty pilot and keeps having to have his ass saved.

God, how I wish Kenneth Branagh had been cast and the character had been treated with the reverence he deserved. You can't imagine Alec Guiness having to be saved by anybody.

Lucas touted the PT to show the Jedi in their prime. The only thing that he established is the complete ineptitude of the Jedi Order.

ANH, Obi-Wan arrives on the Death Star and Vader senses him, immediately. But the Jedi are constantly around Palpatine and never, ever sense a dark lord of the Sith. If he's using his powers to manipulate the senate, wouldn't somebody sense this? Oh wait, we need this as a plot device so in this saga we cannot sense the Sith. Here's an easy out, the dark side clouds everything... Jedi in their prime? If the Sith haven't been around for 500 years what is the purpose of the Jedi Order anyway? A police force? It just seems idiotic that the trade federation can have a droid army, but the republic doesn't have an army. With as stupid as these Jedi are, who would want them protecting their planets?

This is why Jar Jar is so important. Lucas needed to create a character 10x more of an idiot than the Jedi to take the heat off of his shitty storytelling.

[Weirded Wonder]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Okay, I thought so. Then I simply have to say that I got extremely lucky the prequels turned out the way they did and that they met and even surpassed my expectations. I wouldn't be interested in a Aliens/Braveheart video-game-style rendition of Star Wars. That's not Star Wars to me at all! Lucas stood by his themes and style and principles against fan-demands and the zeitgeist.

You need higher expectations.

[nathan_393]

I love this thread The negativity is great - makes me feel a lot better about my own life

Actually, it's just a nice read on a Monday.

And if Episode II was a video game, it would have been a very bad one.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

I don't think it's possible to make a series of movies that resembles a video game more than the prequel trilogy.

Strange that you make that parallel when "it's just a big video game commercial" is one of the complaints I hear leveled at it regularly.

The popular video-games nowadays are gritty ego-shooters like "Medal Of Honor" or "Battlefield" and similar stuff. That's what I'm talking about! Star Wars always had elaborate action-pieces like the speeder-bike chase, the trench-battle, The Hoth-battle or the Asteroid-field. You could say that's like a "video-game" and it actually has been adapted into video-games a couple of times but I'm talking about todays video-games with soulless military-types as central characters - just as in most of James Camerons movies. The prequels could have turned out like that - but I'm glad they didn't and instead kept with the established fairy-tale high adventure style of the OT.

[hipster.doofus7]

Originally Posted by The Doof

And it is frustrating that Obi-wan was such a puss. He is described as a General in ANH. But obviously every Jedi is a general, so big deal. We hear Grevious "Oh, it's the awesome General Kenobi" but we never get to see any reason for this reputation.

What are you smoking? In the prequels, Obi-wan personally defeated Darth Maul, General Grievous, and Darth Vader. He has won as many duels as Luke, Yoda, Anakin, and Mace Windu combined. How much more badass do you want him to be?

Originally Posted by The Doof

he has his ass handed to him by Maul, Dooku (twice) and Greivous. he lucks out with Maul and Greivous. That gun gag demeaned his status as a Jedi imo. He's a shitty pilot and keeps having to have his ass saved.

Uh... he didn't "luck out". If it happens once, you attribute it to luck. Happens multiple times? That's no luck. That's guile. And the prequels show that Obiwan relied as much on guile as power, unlike Anakin who relies strictly on the latter. It has been made explicitly clear that Obiwan wasn't nearly as powerful as Yoda or Mace or Anakin, but he always gets results. That's what made prequel Obi-wan so cool.

[Weirded Wonder]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

The popular video-games nowadays are gritty ego-shooters like "Medal Of Honor" and similar stuff. That's what I'm talking about! Star Wars always had elaborate action-pieces like the speeder-bike chase, the trench-battle, The Hoth-battle or the Asteroid-field. You could say that's like a "video-game" and it actually has been adapted into video-games a couple of times but I'm talking about todays video-games with soulless military-types as central characters - just as in most of James Camerons movies. The prequels could have turned out like that - but I'm glad they didn't and instead kept with the established fairy-tale high adventure style of the OT.

A massive droid army shooting endless amounts of lasers into a shield all walking in single file has a lot of soul? If anyone had half a brain in the PT they would have created millions of destroyer droids as the Jedi seemed incapable of taking them on, Obi & Qui vs destroyers in TPM, the arena duel on Geo-douches, mindless indeed.

I doubt you've played any of these games or have ever attempted to involve yourself into the story lines of a lot of these video games or are you too afraid to see a story richer than anything shown in the prequels.

[balthazar_bee]

Originally Posted by The Doof

God, how I wish Kenneth Branagh had been cast and the character had been treated with the reverence he deserved. You can't imagine Alec Guiness having to be saved by anybody.

If any single factor made the prequels watchable, aside from the score, it was the presence of Ewan McGregor. Remove his scenes from AOTC, and you've got just about the most pitiful excuse for cinema I can imagine.

Having said that, if we're recasting the prequels (and it's baddassery you're after), I'd suggest Russell Crowe for Obi-Wan and Anthony Hopkins for Qui-Gon.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by Beard Esquire

A massive droid army shooting endless amounts of lasers into a shield all walking in single file has a lot of soul? If anyone had half a brain in the PT they would have created millions of destroyer droids as the Jedi seemed incapable of taking them on, Obi & Qui vs destroyers in TPM, the arena duel on Genosha, mindless indeed.

I doubt you've played any of these games or have ever attempted to involve yourself into the story lines of a lot of these video games or are you too afraid to see a storyricher than anything shown in the prequels.

and it's Geonosis!

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

Uh huh.

Anyway, he asked, I answered. It's not like I'm complaining that it wasn't done that way, just rising to the challenge of "do a better job, then".

A better job would be an Anakin we actually like and care about. Imagine the impact of like, Aragorn becoming evil in Return of the King after his conduct in the first two movies/books. That kind of a turn would be very powerful because it's such a stretch. Anakin in the prequels was already a spaz, his "turn" to the dark side doesn't seem interesting at all.

I do not think that the Anakin not being as great of a character as he should be (seeing how he is the main character and is Darth Vader after all) is a fault of the story or having a weak reasoning for him turning to the dark side. It's the execution of the character ESPECIALLY in Episode 2. We see Anakin in Episode 2 as what essentially boils down to a moody emo teenager. It might have been the fault of the acting itself or it may have been Lucas' directing and thus asking for such a performance. The story itself I find is ok, the acting and execution of the story however is highly questionable. If there's ANYTHING in the prequel trilogy to be questioned on in regards to story is the fact that Anakin miraculously formed in his mothers womb. THAT is absolutely ridiculous even for a Star Wars/sci-fi thing but you rarely hear much criticism on that, mostly people just hate Jar Jar and both actors that played Anakin.

[The Doof]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Okay, I thought so. Then I simply have to say that I got extremely lucky turned out the way they did and that they met and even surpassed my expectations. I wouldn't be interested in a Aliens/Braveheart video-game-style rendition of Star Wars. That's not Star Wars to me at all!

Well, the reason I get so frustrated is because both trilogies could have been amazing and had permanent resonance for generations to come.

Lucas stated 100 times in the 70's and 80's that the opening trilogy was much more mature, much more Machiavellian, more intrigue, less action, more elegant and more tragic, less "whiz-bang" etc. etc. etc. etc. he stated over and over "no one will like them because they are so different in tone."

It should have written itself.

We needed to see:

- Anakin's amazing abilities as a star pilot. Not a pod-racer. Not a "that's a good trick" 10 year old kid. This is what should brought him to Obi-Wan's attention.

- Obi-Wan as a more "reckless' version of himself. How cool would it have been for him to be slightly like Han Solo in his youth? Can you say "character arc?" Lucas can't.

- The twins needed to be born before Vader fully turned. Obi-Wan's "betrayal" would be his hiding them from Anakin - this way Leia would have been with her mom for a month or so in hiding.

- a scene with Obi-Wan - months after Anakin turns - expressing his belief that there is still good in him.

- The droids should have been more on the outside of things. Lucas himself said this was the case when the first trilogy came out.

- the Clone Wars should have been a war - a crusade - against clones and cloning. I believe that was Lucas' original intent. "He believed I should have not gotten involved." This doesn't sound like a civil war to me. Or a duty to be performed in the service of the republic. It sounds more like a jihad.

- we needed to see Obi-Wan's vanity - his hubris at wanting to train Anakin - his desire to train this amazing new Jedi for selfish reasons - it shouldn't have been forced upon him

- Uncle Owen would have been much better as Kenobi's brother as originally intended - it just makes sense and creates a very interesting dynamic between him and "old Ben." "To his family take him?" They are not his family! Why do they take this kid? Owen's gruff and bitter character would have made more sense if he felt his brother had been responsible for ruining the galaxy.

- Tatooine should never have been in the PT.

- and yes, wanting to save a loved one will make people do crazy things, but there is only one thing that could drive someone to the dark side - jealousy. There should have been a love triangle with Obi-Wan.

- Anakin falling into a volcanic pit, not landing on the edge of a river of lava. You wouldn't have to actually see him fall into lava, just fall into the pit. We don't need to know how he survived. And this way people watching in order won't know he is Vader.

- we should have had Godfather-esque political intrigue in the Senate and the courts. That deleted scene of Bail Organa had a bit of the right feel. Jimmy Smits?!!! WTF?


These are all things that were basically established in the first films. All he had to do was backtrack the story to connect everything. We got more juvenile films that glossed over every one of these story points, not more mature ones that met our - totally justified - expectations.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

The popular video-games nowadays are gritty ego-shooters like "Medal Of Honor" or "Battlefield" and similar stuff. That's what I'm talking about! Star Wars always had elaborate action-pieces like the speeder-bike chase, the trench-battle, The Hoth-battle or the Asteroid-field. You could say that's like a "video-game" and it actually has been adapted into video-games a couple of times but I'm talking about todays video-games with soulless military-types as central characters - just as in most of James Camerons movies. The prequels could have turned out like that - but I'm glad they didn't and instead kept with the established fairy-tale high adventure style of the OT.

Ugh, the OT doesn't LOOK like a video game. The PT does. That is the point I think he was trying to make. The Stormtroopers in the OT were flesh and blood actors that had 'weight' to them. The Clone Troopers looked like and were CGI. They just didn't carry the same weight. Its strange, but the visual is off.

Describing Cameron's characters in Aliens as souless is beyond silly. Each Marine was better written that any of the Jedi of equal roles in the PT. Vasquez, Hudson, Hicks, Bishop, Gorman, Detriech and Burke were exceptionally written and acted supporting characters to Ripley and Newt. I cannot name any of the supporting Jedi other than Yoda and Mace Windu, yet can name more than 1/2 of the supporting characters from Aliens. Oh, and the deaths of Vasquez and Gorman was by far one of the best scenes in Sci Fi film history. Nothing in ROTS comes close to that.

[The Doof]

Originally Posted by hipster.doofus7

What are you smoking? In the prequels, Obi-wan personally defeated Darth Maul, General Grievous, and Darth Vader. He has won as many duels as Luke, Yoda, Anakin, and Mace Windu combined. How much more badass do you want him to be?




Uh... he didn't "luck out". If it happens once, you attribute it to luck. Happens multiple times? That's no luck. That's guile. And the prequels show that Obiwan relied as much on guile as power, unlike Anakin who relies strictly on the latter. It has been made explicitly clear that Obiwan wasn't nearly as powerful as Yoda or Mace or Anakin, but he always gets results. That's what made prequel Obi-wan so cool.

I'm smokin' reality my friend. Yousa should try it sometime. Maul defeated Obi Wan. Greivous defeated Obi-Wan. BOTH times his ass is hanging over a big fall. What you call guile I call lazy writing.

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by Jay444

Ugh, the OT doesn't LOOK like a video game. The PT does. That is the point I think he was trying to make. The Stormtroopers in the OT were flesh and blood actors that had 'weight' to them. The Clone Troopers looked like and were CGI. They just didn't carry the same weight. Its strange, but the visual is off.

Describing Cameron's characters in Aliens as souless is beyond silly. Each Marine was better written that any of the Jedi of equal roles in the PT. Vasquez, Hudson, Hicks, Bishop, Gorman, Detriech and Burke were exceptionally written and acted supporting characters to Ripley and Newt. I cannot name any of the supporting Jedi other than Yoda and Mace Windu, yet can name more than 1/2 of the supporting characters from Aliens. Oh, and the deaths of Vasquez and Gorman was by far one of the best scenes in Sci Fi film history. Nothing in ROTS comes close to that.

I can't comprehend where the heck people pull these "well developed characters that one cares about" from the hoaky generic b-movie drop out space marines in Aliens. Cameron gave us better versions of those space marines in Avatar and Avatar was only middle of the road at best (in other words, since those same ole recycled marines made a come back in Avatar and are considerably better in Avatar, that basically shows how terrible they were in Aliens). I would have to say, the Jedi's in Ep 1-3 while not that great, were better than the marines ever were in Aliens because at least the acting from Yoda and Samuel L. Jackson were ok (Yoda was actually pretty good in the PT). Can't really comment on the other Jedi's since they really weren't in the films much apart from just taking up space in the Council.

[Brightstar]

This tread should be about the star wars release on blu ray not a discussion about the star wars universe . its nearly really reaching 2000 pages

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by dookiex

I can't comprehend where the heck people pull these "well developed characters that one cares about" from the hoaky generic b-movie drop out space marines in Aliens. Cameron gave us better versions of those space marines in Avatar and Avatar was only middle of the road at best (in other words, since those same ole recycled marines made a come back in Avatar and are considerably better in Avatar, that basically shows how terrible they were in Aliens). I would have to say, the Jedi's in Ep 1-3 while not that great, were better than the marines ever were in Aliens because at least the acting from Yoda and Samuel L. Jackson were ok (Yoda was actually pretty good in the PT). Can't really comment on the other Jedi's since they really weren't in the films much apart from just taking up space in the Council.

Because they like them and as such they are well written and created characters performed by incredible A list actors

I love it when people use Cameron as example as to what a great director does and how to write movies. Cameron movies are so full of cliche and typical generic badly acted characters it make's Flash Gordon serials from the 30's look like Oscar winners

[Hatter]

Originally Posted by The Doof

- Anakin falling into a volcanic pit, not landing on the edge of a river of lava. You wouldn't have to actually see him fall into lava, just fall into the pit. We don't need to know how he survived. And this way people watching in order won't know he is Vader.

Darth Sidious: Good. Good! The Force is strong with you, Anakin Skywalker. A powerful Sith you will become. Henceforth, you shall be known as Darth... Vader.

Anakin Skywalker: Thank you... my Master.

Add in another dozen direct references and sure, yeah we know he's not Vader still.

[The Doof]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

Because they like them and as such they are well written and created characters performed by incredible A list actors

I love it when people use Cameron as example as to what a great director does and how to write movies. Cameron movies are so full of cliche and typical generic badly acted characters it make's Flash Gordon serials from the 30's look like Oscar winners

I agree. But even as cliches I care about Cameron's characters way more than Lucas' PT ones. Hudson's character in Aliens at least has a believable arc that swings around with a bit of range.

I have no problem with cliches. ANH is one big cliche. But there are bad cliches and good cliches.

PT = BADBADBADBADBADBADBADBADBAD