Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[The Doof]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Frankly for me, it tends to be quite the contrary. I am looking for consistency, and in some cases it comes up short.


Unfortunately I didn't manage to watch most of the OT this weekend as I was planning due to some things that came up, but I did watch part of ANH (and I watche the PT over the course of a few days after getting the set).

Some thing really just stick out at me and bug me about how the PT doesn't quite line up with some of the dialogue. Specifically the following couple of bits:

*When Obi Wan tells Luke that his Uncle (Owen) wanted his father (Anakin) to "stay here" (meaning Tatooine) instead of going off to fight in the clone wars.

*When Bearu tells Owen that Luke "has too much of his father in him."


Now, some peope will argue that I'm nitpicking, but this to me is very important. Both of these lines of dialogue strongly suggest that Anakin was really close with Owen and Bearu. Perhaps that Owen and Anakin were actually brothers and not just step-brothers that met years later... though to semantics of their specific relation aren't as important as the implied closeness.

This dialogue suggests that Anakin actually lived on Tatooin for some time while knowing Owen, that they were close, and that Anakin at some point left to go fight off in the wars. Further, Bearu's comment seems to come from a place of positive reflection upon Anakin. As if she is remembering some kind of positive-adventurous spirit that Anakin was known for.

But in the PT, as far as we can tell/are shown, Anakin goes back to Tatooine to find his mother, that's when he stumbles upon his step-family, and he and Padme stay there for maybe a day or two tops while Anakin is all angry in his attempts to find his mothers, goes off and slaughters a bunch of sand people, and then comes back stewing about his mother's death, then takes off and as far as we know, never returns.

So, where is this closeness? Where is Owen wanting Anakin to stay behind? Where is Bearu getting this positive view of Anakin from? Owen's repose to Bearu's comment, "That's what I'm afraid of", make sense in relation to Anakin's behavior in the PT, but where is this implied closeness that we get in the OT?


This is the kind of stuff that drives me nuts. Some will probably argue that I'm reading to much into things, or will pull out the old "certain point of view" line. Yeah, okay, that line worked well to explain what Obi Wan said about Anakin's father in ANH, but does that really have to apply to everything else? Are we to believe that Obi Wan is just some crazy old man who's mind is going and keeps going out of his way to look at EVERYTHING, even small minor details from a "certain point of view" which when presented will pretty much purposely lead the other person to believe something that isn't true at all?

The problem is that the dialogue not only suggests a closeness, but even brings into question how the Jedi order works. As I said earlier, if Owen didn't want Anakin to leave (as Obi Wan says), that suggests that Anakin lived with him for a while... probably until he was at least the same age that Luke is in ANH. So, would he have already been a Jedi at that point? Whether the answer is yes or no, it raises all kinds of contradictions in regards to the age at which a Jedi gets trained, WHERE they get trained, for how long, etc.

Between these statements, as well as Obi Wan saying that Luke's uncle didn't agree with his father's ideals, it just raises more and more questions.


This isn't me "looking" for things to nitpick. These are things that jump out at me as being contradictions. I am watching the movies in the order that the artist now "intends" them to be seen, despite the order in which they were made. I get the OT films and hear things that are meant to describe the way things were during the time that the PT takes place, and in a number of ways it doesn't match up with what I just watched. The only line that should be a contradiction is Obi Wan saying that Darth Vader killed Anakin since that gets explained away in the following film. Plus even in ANH it kind of works given Obi Wan's hesitation in answering the question. Whether or not Lucas intended it this way when he filmed it, Obi Wan hesitating and then telling Luke something that doesn't match up with the OT makes sense. But the rest of it should add up.

Now, if you disagree, if it doesn't bother you, if you can ignore it, or if you somehow embrace it as is because of some explanation that you can apply to it from other "myths", hey that's fine. But this is how I see it based on the info that I am presented with.

Brother, Meesa right there with you. It would have been better if Owen had had no choice but to flee to Tatooine and become a farmer to hide his nephew. Then you get his bitterness, his dislike of Ben etc. etc. An Owen character in the PT - Anakin's brother - that tried to persuade Anakin not to become a jedi would have been fantastic.

Lucas painted himself into a corner with the whole messiah thing.


SW character dynamic: RIP.

[dcowboy7]

Shocked this thread is still a sticky.

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

Apparently we get very different things from movies.

Aliens has space marines in common with Avatar. And a director.

Otherwise, no, not so much "practically the same movie".

Let's see. Big corporation that wants to basically take aliens and clone/mass produce/etc. the aliens. Check. Space marines that are hoaky and bad. Check. Hypersleep chambers. Check. Mission to destroy the aliens. Check. Humans going in to extract/kill the mother alien. Check. Mech suit battle with alien. Check. Ok, some of those things are reversed for Avatar (Ripley wants to kill the aliens, the corporation wants to mass produce them while in Avatar Sigourney wants to study the aliens and live in harmony while the corporation wants to wipe them out and manufacture the tech they make out of them). It's as if Cameron made Aliens and then later thought of Pocahontas and went "Hey, what if I too Aliens and mixed it with Pocahontas and all other generic white man comes to take your land story I can think of?"

Originally Posted by Jay444

Wow. How you think Signoury Weaver was 'under used' in a film she was nominated for best actress in is beyond me. Oh, and just because there are Marines in Avatar and Aliens does not make them the same movie. Very different themes, very different characters.

Sigourney was DEFINITELY underused in Aliens. I thought the first 30 minutes or so of the film was really good but once they landed on the planet with the marines, it was all downhill from there until the mech suit battle. Generic stereotype characters. I was watching a old interview with Cameron in regards to Aliens and he referred to one of the characters as something along the lines of "the girl who played the chicana character," I'm sitting there going "wow, so basically you really do think of your characters as generic stereotypes especially since that's how you refer to your characters."

[MCT]

Originally Posted by dookiex

Aliens is not great cinema. More like a precursor for Transformers.

Lmao wtf? First TPM, now Transformers (which might be even worse)?

*plays Twilight Zone theme*

[Adrock]

Originally Posted by dookiex

Let's see. Big corporation that wants to basically take aliens and clone/mass produce/etc. the aliens. Check. Space marines that are hoaky and bad. Check. Hypersleep chambers. Check. Mission to destroy the aliens. Check. Humans going in to extract/kill the mother alien. Check. Mech suit battle with alien. Check. Ok, some of those things are reversed for Avatar (Ripley wants to kill the aliens, the corporation wants to mass produce them while in Avatar Sigourney wants to study the aliens and live in harmony while the corporation wants to wipe them out and manufacture the tech they make out of them). It's as if Cameron made Aliens and then later thought of Pocahontas and went "Hey, what if I too Aliens and mixed it with Pocahontas and all other generic white man comes to take your land story I can think of?"

[Sponge-worthy]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

Not really a surprise but still pretty cool! I dont think there are really any boycotters though...

I am one of those boycotters.

[svenge]

Originally Posted by MCT

Lmao wtf? First TPM, now Transformers (which might be even worse)?

*plays Twilight Zone theme*

The first Transformers movie was much more entertaining than TPM. There's definately no "Galactic C-SPAN" scenes in a Michael Bay movie...

[MCT]

Originally Posted by dookiex

Let's see. Big corporation that wants to basically take aliens and clone/mass produce/etc. the aliens. Check. Space marines that are hoaky and bad. Check. Hypersleep chambers. Check. Mission to destroy the aliens. Check. Humans going in to extract/kill the mother alien. Check. Mech suit battle with alien. Check. Ok, some of those things are reversed for Avatar (Ripley wants to kill the aliens, the corporation wants to mass produce them while in Avatar Sigourney wants to study the aliens and live in harmony while the corporation wants to wipe them out and manufacture the tech they make out of them). It's as if Cameron made Aliens and then later thought of Pocahontas and went "Hey, what if I too Aliens and mixed it with Pocahontas."

I always thought Avatar was more of a ripoff of Ferngully than Aliens. But I do see your point here.

[MCT]

Originally Posted by svenge

The first Transformers movie was much more entertaining than TPM. There's definately no "Galactic C-SPAN" scenes in a Michael Bay movie...

Please dont make me defend TPM...but against Transformers, I almost have to. Stop with your mind games! THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by MCT

Lmao wtf? First TPM, now Transformers (which might be even worse)?

*plays Twilight Zone theme*

Hey, never said I was a fan of TPM. LoL. All I said in regards to TPM and the PT in general is that how badly we perceive the story in the PT may actually have very little to do with the story itself and more with the horrible execution and decisions made in regards to how the characters should be portrayed. Example, how one person mentions that it wasn't much of a motivation for Anikin to go to the dark side because of his love for his mother in TPM and AOTC, problem might not lie in the motivation aspect of the narrative but in the fact that little toddler Anikin was a too cutesy and badly acted little boy and then in AOTC we get a moody generic emo teen that hates everything.

[svenge]

Originally Posted by MCT

Please dont make me defend TPM...but against Transformers, I almost have to. Stop with your mind games! THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!

Don't worry, I won't make you do such a thing. I'm not saying that Transformers was good (which no reasonable person would claim), I'm saying it was fun. TPM was neither.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by MCT

Lmao wtf? First TPM, now Transformers (which might be even worse)?

*plays Twilight Zone theme*

Somehow I can accept Transformers more easily, because I'm used to Michael Bay shitting in my eyes and don't expect much from a movie based on an action figure line.

Somehow I'd come to expect so much more from Lucas, due to the potential the universe and mythos has. TESB is in line with what I'd expect from a more "grown-up" Star Wars. It's the only movie on this viewing that had me actually excited, to the point that I was tossing out little "Yeah!"s during the flick and getting into it. That one is perfect because I loved it as a kid and watched it constantly, and still love it as an adult. People don't give kids enough credit and think they need silly "comic relief" characters like Jar Jar. ESB was my favorite Star Wars flick when I was 5 years old, and I didn't even understand the "adult" elements of it, or that it was better-acted and directed than the others, I just liked it for things that kids like in movies. You can easily make a movie that pleases adults as well as kids.

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by svenge

Don't worry, I won't make you do such a thing. I'm not saying that Transformers was good (which no reasonable person would claim), I'm saying it was fun. TPM was neither.

Hey, I enjoyed TPM when it first came out. I think I was still in HS at the time. It was an entertaining romp. However, it's been over 10 years now since I've last watched it and by golly is it pretty darn bad. Ewan McGregor was right though, definitely have to watch the Blu Ray set starting from Episode 1, that way they can only get better. Admittedly however, the PT is taking me quite some time to finish watching. I kept stopping it and popping something else in to watch. So far in my attempt to finish watching the PT, I've already watched Incendies, finished Camelot, and rewatched both The Godfather and The Godfather 2 and no doubt will I rewatch The Godfather 3 before I finish The Revenge of the Sith.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by MCT

I always thought Avatar was more of a ripoff of Ferngully than Aliens. But I do see your point here.

Fern Gully was a rip-off of Dances With Wolves... Dances With Wolves was a rip-off of... so on and so forth.

Anyway I felt like the indigenous culture being exploited and wiped out and the main character sympathizing with them and having a change of heart was the main thrust of Avatar, not "space marines and mechs" fighting.

I could do a "check" with just about any movie.

Hey the Matrix is a rip-off of Star Wars.

Gun battles? Check.

Choreographed fights between a master and a student? Check.

A "chosen one" storyline? Check.

An evil empire out to squash a band of rebel scum? Check.

A mystical set of abilities that some people have a natural affinity for, which allow them to manipulate things in their environment? Check.

Parallels between religion and philsophy? Check.

OMG same movie! Lucas should sue the Wachowski's and WB for their blatant ripping off of his ideas.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by dookiex

Let's see. Big corporation that wants to basically take aliens and clone/mass produce/etc. the aliens. Check. Space marines that are hoaky and bad. Check. Hypersleep chambers. Check. Mission to destroy the aliens. Check. Humans going in to extract/kill the mother alien. Check. Mech suit battle with alien. Check. Ok, some of those things are reversed for Avatar (Ripley wants to kill the aliens, the corporation wants to mass produce them while in Avatar Sigourney wants to study the aliens and live in harmony while the corporation wants to wipe them out and manufacture the tech they make out of them). It's as if Cameron made Aliens and then later thought of Pocahontas and went "Hey, what if I too Aliens and mixed it with Pocahontas and all other generic white man comes to take your land story I can think of?"

Exactly! Cameron is the Anti-Lucas. He is incapable of having even ONE original idea... You can see that with Aliens: "Uh, oh, what could we do with the evil robot from the original. The Switcharoo! I'll turn him good... When I think about it - I guess I'll do the very same thing with my Terminator-franchise."

[sevb36]

Originally Posted by The Doof

Brother, Meesa right there with you. It would have been better if Owen had had no choice but to flee to Tatooine and become a farmer to hide his nephew. Then you get his bitterness, his dislike of Ben etc. etc. An Owen character in the PT - Anakin's brother - that tried to persuade Anakin not to become a jedi would have been fantastic.

Lucas painted himself into a corner with the whole messiah thing.


SW character dynamic: RIP.

I think you guys were assuming too much based on a few vague lines. Lucas kept it pretty vague in OT which gave him some wiggle room. It is written Owen goes on a rant to Obi-Wan between EP 3 and 4. About how Anakin should have stayed there with his mother and not joined the Jedi order. Yes it's not in the movies, just like how exactly Vader found out who Luke was is not in the movies.

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

Fern Gully was a rip-off of Dances With Wolves... Dances With Wolves was a rip-off of... so on and so forth.

Anyway I felt like the indigenous culture being exploited and wiped out and the main character sympathizing with them and having a change of heart was the main thrust of Avatar, not "space marines and mechs" fighting.

I could do a "check" with just about any movie.

Hey the Matrix is a rip-off of Star Wars.

Gun battles? Check.

Choreographed fights between a master and a student? Check.

A "chosen one" storyline? Check.

An evil empire out to squash a band of rebel scum? Check.

A mystical set of abilities that some people have a natural affinity for, which allow them to manipulate things in their environment? Check.

Parallels between religion and philsophy? Check.

OMG same movie! Lucas should sue the Wachowski's and WB for their blatant ripping off of his ideas.

Parallels between Avatar and Aliens are just too blatantly obvious to not take notice of though. Seriously, it runs far deeper than "there's a mech suit vs alien battle in both." It's almost as if Cameron made Avatar as a counter point to Aliens. The reintroduction of the mech suit in Avatar and bringing Sigourney back to do Avatar is most obviously not something where Cameron is just doing it and going "oh, why not." Same can be said of The Abyss. It's as if Cameron made his only trilogy of similar films here.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Exactly! Cameron is the Anti-Lucas. He is incapable of having even ONE original idea... You can see that with Aliens: "Uh, oh, what could we do with the evil robot from the original. The Switcharoo! I'll turn him good... When I think about it - I guess I'll do the very same thing with my Terminator-franchise."

Whereas Lucas is known for original ideas and not stealing wholesale from Kurosawa, Flash Gordon, Wayne/Ford westerns, Leone westerns, etc. etc.

Lucas has never had an idea even half as original as say, Strange Days, or The Terminator.

Even Cameron's "brainless action movies" like True Lies are a lot more entertaining than most of his contemporaries.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by dookiex

Sigourney was DEFINITELY underused in Aliens. I thought the first 30 minutes or so of the film was really good but once they landed on the planet with the marines, it was all downhill from there until the mech suit battle. Generic stereotype characters. I was watching a old interview with Cameron in regards to Aliens and he referred to one of the characters as something along the lines of "the girl who played the chicana character," I'm sitting there going "wow, so basically you really do think of your characters as generic stereotypes especially since that's how you refer to your characters."

Wow, I think you need to need watch the movie again because you have completely missed the biggest theme of Aliens, which was Ripley's relationship with Newt, or lost motherhood (which you haven't mentioned once). Ripley's character was driven by Newt because the Alien robbed her of her chance to mother her own daughter (see the deleted scene). To think "it was just about the Marines" is like saying "PT was about Jar Jar's journey from dofus to Senator." You need to pay better attention when watching films. This theme is NO WHERE in Avatar btw.

Also, I would LOVE to see a link showing Cameron saying 'the chicana character' to describe the woman he had in three of his movies. "Wolfies just fine dear. Where are you?"

Anyway, I am going to go watch Jar Jar's fun mishaps in 1080p HD with 6.1 sound!

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Exactly! Cameron is the Anti-Lucas. He is incapable of having even ONE original idea... You can see that with Aliens: "Uh, oh, what could we do with the evil robot from the original. The Switcharoo! I'll turn him good... When I think about it - I guess I'll do the very same thing with my Terminator-franchise."

Whereas Lucas is known for original ideas and not stealing wholesale from Kurosawa, Flash Gordon, Wayne/Ford westerns, Leone westerns, Gone With The Wind, Jack Kirby comics, etc. etc.

Lucas has never had an idea even half as original as say, Strange Days, or The Terminator.

Even Cameron's "brainless action movies" like True Lies are a lot more entertaining than most of his contemporaries.