Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[hipster.doofus7]

Ironically, most of the people who are saying Vader's NOOOOO! is spoon-feeding the viewer are the ones who clearly do not understand what Lucas was trying to do. Because if they did understand, then they would either agree with him, or disagree with him. Either way, they would not say it was "spoon-feeding".

They claim it was spoon-feeding because they think Lucas is merely trying to have Vader vocally express his displeasure. But that is NOT the point. The real reason why Lucas has Vader yelling NOOOOO! in RotJ is that he was trying to strengthen the parallels between Anakin's downfall and Vader's redemption:

• RotS: Palpatine is writhing in pain from lightning as Mace Windu tries to kill him.
• RotJ: Luke is writhing in pain from lightning as the Emperor tries to kill him.

• RotS: Anakin's emotions are conflicted, and he turns to the dark side.
• RotJ: Vader's emotions are conflicted, and he turns back to the good side.

• RotS: Anakin yells NOOOOO! as he attacks Mace Windu to save Palpatine.
• RotJ: Vader yells NOOOOO! as he attacks the Emperor to save Luke.

• RotS: Mace Windu is thrown out the window, into a seemingly bottomless pit.
• RotJ: The Emperor is thrown down a shaft, into a seemingly bottomless pit.

• RotS: Anakin's downfall is complete.
• RotJ: Vader's redemption is complete.

Adding the NOOOOO! is not considered "spoon feeding" because most people clearly missed the parallels. A lot of Blu-ray reviewers even thought that the new NOOOO! in RotJ was referencing the cringe-worthy NOOOO! Vader yells when he was told of Padme's death at the end of RotS. Few people seem to have caught on to the Mace Windu parallel, which is CLEARLY what Lucas was trying to reference.

People can agree with Lucas's reasoning, or they can disagree. But to say it was "spoon-feeding" when the idea went completely over the heads of most people.... that makes no sense. If anything, the parallels were too complicated for some people to recognize.

[josh6113]

Originally Posted by Ryan0503

Just wanted to throw my two cents in here ... I "cashed in" 10,000 reward points from my credit card for a $100 Amazon gift card and got The Complete Saga and Thor 3D for $7.99, so I'd have to say well worth it!! lol ... It took me a week to finish all 6 movies but I have to say I have never been happier watching Star Wars. The worst looking was AOTC imo. I thought ROTS even had a few issues here and there where certain elements in a scene just looked really "staticy" (ie Anakins hair in the opera scene with palpatine). Other than those few scenes the movie looked great!! I though TPM look amazing, yeah some of the CGI looked a bit dated but that didn't bother me ... As for the OT, All three films looked FANTASTIC!!! Yeah I still think that some of the changes are pointless (ie Vaders Nooooo!!!) However, NONE of them bothered me!!! I was in such aww at how great these movies looked that even the changes couldn't ruin it for me. As for the audio, across all 6 movies the Surround Sound was amazing!!! really brought the movies to life in a way I have never experienced before!!! I have to say that in my opinion Star Wars has never looked or sounded this good ... it was like watching a movie I had never seen before (in a good way). I know that some will question my eyesight, intelligence, or HDTV callibration but I REALLY enjoyed this release!!!

I'm with you 100% on your outlook on these movies...:-)

[LetoAtreides82]

Originally Posted by hipster.doofus7

Ironically, most of the people who are saying Vader's NOOOOO! is spoon-feeding the viewer are the ones who clearly do not understand what Lucas was trying to do. Because if they did understand, then they would either agree with him, or disagree with him. Either way, they would not say it was "spoon-feeding".

They claim it was spoon-feeding because they think Lucas is merely trying to have Vader vocally express his displeasure. But that is NOT the point. The real reason why Lucas has Vader yelling NOOOOO! in RotJ is that he was trying to strengthen the parallels between Anakin's downfall and Vader's redemption:

• RotS: Palpatine is writhing in pain from lightning as Mace Windu tries to kill him.
• RotJ: Luke is writhing in pain from lightning as the Emperor tries to kill him.

• RotS: Anakin's emotions are conflicted, and he turns to the dark side.
• RotJ: Vader's emotions are conflicted, and he turns back to the good side.

• RotS: Anakin yells NOOOOO! as he attacks Mace Windu to save Palpatine.
• RotJ: Vader yells NOOOOO! as he attacks the Emperor to save Luke.

• RotS: Mace Windu is thrown out the window, into a seemingly bottomless pit.
• RotJ: The Emperor is thrown down a shaft, into a seemingly bottomless pit.

• RotS: Anakin's downfall is complete.
• RotJ: Vader's redemption is complete.

Adding the NOOOOO! is not considered "spoon feeding" because most people clearly missed the parallels. A lot of Blu-ray reviewers even thought that the new NOOOO! in RotJ was referencing the cringe-worthy NOOOO! Vader yells when he was told of Padme's death at the end of RotS. Few people seem to have caught on to the Mace Windu parallel, which is CLEARLY what Lucas was trying to reference.

People can agree with Lucas's reasoning, or they can disagree. But to say it was "spoon-feeding" when the idea went completely over the heads of most people.... that makes no sense. If anything, the parallels were too complicated for some people to recognize.

Well said. I happen to like all the "NOOOOO" scenes, especially the one right after he dons the Vader suit. He's so angry everything around him starts breaking, kinda reminds me of Magneto.

[hipster.doofus7]

Originally Posted by LetoAtreides82

I happen to like all the "NOOOOO" scenes, especially the one right after he dons the Vader suit. He's so angry everything around him starts breaking, kinda reminds me of Magneto.

I like the idea of Vader yelling NOOOO! at the Frankenstein scene. I think most people will agree it was necessary. The majority of the complaints had to do with James Earl Jones' poor delivery of that line. It didn't have the kind of anguish that was necessary for such an emotional scene. I was really hoping they would re-dub the scene for Blu-ray; unfortunately, they didn't.

[Valaquen]

Originally Posted by hipster.doofus7

Ironically, most of the people who are saying Vader's NOOOOO! is spoon-feeding the viewer are the ones who clearly do not understand what Lucas was trying to do. Because if they did understand, then they would either agree with him, or disagree with him. Either way, they would not say it was "spoon-feeding".

They claim it was spoon-feeding because they think Lucas is merely trying to have Vader vocally express his displeasure. But that is NOT the point. The real reason why Lucas has Vader yelling NOOOOO! in RotJ is that he was trying to strengthen the parallels between Anakin's downfall and Vader's redemption:

• RotS: Palpatine is writhing in pain from lightning as Mace Windu tries to kill him.
• RotJ: Luke is writhing in pain from lightning as the Emperor tries to kill him.

• RotS: Anakin's emotions are conflicted, and he turns to the dark side.
• RotJ: Vader's emotions are conflicted, and he turns back to the good side.

• RotS: Anakin yells NOOOOO! as he attacks Mace Windu to save Palpatine.
• RotJ: Vader yells NOOOOO! as he attacks the Emperor to save Luke.

• RotS: Mace Windu is thrown out the window, into a seemingly bottomless pit.
• RotJ: The Emperor is thrown down a shaft, into a seemingly bottomless pit.

• RotS: Anakin's downfall is complete.
• RotJ: Vader's redemption is complete.

Adding the NOOOOO! is not considered "spoon feeding" because most people clearly missed the parallels. A lot of Blu-ray reviewers even thought that the new NOOOO! in RotJ was referencing the cringe-worthy NOOOO! Vader yells when he was told of Padme's death at the end of RotS. Few people seem to have caught on to the Mace Windu parallel, which is CLEARLY what Lucas was trying to reference.

People can agree with Lucas's reasoning, or they can disagree. But to say it was "spoon-feeding" when the idea went completely over the heads of most people.... that makes no sense. If anything, the parallels were too complicated for some people to recognize.

I really, really, really think the parallels were obvious from the beginning. Hence - the outrage.

[42041]

Originally Posted by hipster.doofus7

I like the idea of Vader yelling NOOOO! at the Frankenstein scene. I think most people will agree it was necessary. The majority of the complaints had to do with James Earl Jones' poor delivery of that line. It didn't have the kind of anguish that was necessary for such an emotional scene. I was really hoping they would re-dub the scene for Blu-ray; unfortunately, they didn't.

I think that scene calls for a more subtle approach; in that context what they did seems corny and trite. Of course Lucas seems incapable of subtlety these days.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

I'm more than aware that the "Noooo" in ROTJ was meant to parallel ROTS. That has been discussed before in this thread. It's still a pointless, stupid change.

[hipster.doofus7]

Originally Posted by Valaquen

I really, really, really think the parallels were obvious from the beginning. Hence - the outrage.

You are incorrect. It's not as "obvious" to people as you say it is.

Go back and read all the comments from haters on youtube, amazon, and IMDB. Read all the comments in this thread as well. Ignore the people who criticized the scene without giving reason. Just read the criticisms from people who actually explained their reasons. The vast, vast, VAST MAJORITY of people who did explain their reason for hating NOOOO!, said it was just a pointless vocalization of Vader's displeasure. Or it was a reference to the NOOOO! Vader yelled after he found out about Padme's death.

Very very few people who explained their criticism referenced the Mace Windu death scene. There were some, but not many.

[hipster.doofus7]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I'm more than aware that the "Noooo" in ROTJ was meant to parallel ROTS. That has been discussed before in this thread. It's still a pointless, stupid change.

George Lucas had a point. Of course, you can disagree with his point, and judge it as a "stupid" change. But it's foolish for you to call the change "pointless" when you are already very much aware that he had a point to begin with.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by hipster.doofus7

George Lucas had a point. Of course, you can disagree with his point, and judge it as a "stupid" change. But it's foolish for you to call the change "pointless" when you are already very much aware that he had a point to begin with.

Technically me calling it pointless is just as much of a judgement as calling it stupid. If it's okay for me to do one, then it should be okay to do the other. Stop making up B.S. semantic rules for this.

The change wasn't needed. It adding nothing to the scenes. It's just another in a plethora of examples of many superficial "parallels" with no real substance to them that he insists on making between the two trilogies rather than actually focusing more on emotional and character development parallels.

[georgec]

That's not poetry or parallelism, it's lazy/rushed writing and an inability to come up with anything new or original. Some may think it's brilliant to borrow many plot and dialogue elements, while others will roll their eyes at the shameless plagiarism of the OT. I suppose people will interpret as they wish, but audiences don't really need to be spoon fed all the literal symbolism to see the similarities in story arcs.

The attempts to rationalize every little change in the spirit of parallelism are amusing. While that's the creator's intent, it's nowhere near effective or necessary. It's just laughable at this point, mang.

[Valaquen]

Originally Posted by hipster.doofus7

You are incorrect. It's not as "obvious" to people as you say it is.

Go back and read all the comments from haters on youtube, amazon, and IMDB. Read all the comments in this thread as well. Ignore the people who criticized the scene without giving reason. Just read the criticisms from people who actually explained their reasons. The vast, vast, VAST MAJORITY of people who did explain their reason for hating NOOOO!, said it was just a pointless vocalization of Vader's displeasure. Or it was a reference to the NOOOO! Vader yelled after he found out about Padme's death.

Very very few people who explained their criticism referenced the Mace Windu death scene. There were some, but not many.

No, really, people got it. Hence the outrage. Argument from omission won't get you far in any debate.

Once again, the Star Wars thread leaves me near speechless...

[Shaft Windu]

I find it amusing that people who are against the prallels accentuated with the NOOO-change - which is not marginal I might add but dealing with the very core of what the the entire saga is about, are the same people who don't get or deny the allusions to the hero's journey or the cultural references. The two camps as I see them after following this thread for a couple of month are:

CAMP A: We consider Star Wars (the OT) as part of our childhood memories and are therefore against any changes to the material. We don't consider the movies to have any value other than entertainment and nostalgia. We don't grant the PT the same status - they are mere add-ons to the "real" Star Wars movies. Star Wars belongs in the past and to one generation.

CAMP B: We consider Star Wars (the entire saga) as a retelling of the heroes journey which draws its outer shell from myth and culture and its core from the development of the human soul and has a message and a significance beyond mere entertainment. Therefore we welcome change that adds to the cohesion of the episodes and strenghthens the impact of the saga. Star Wars is timeless and belongs to all generations even those to come.

[LetoAtreides82]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

I find it amusing that people who are against the prallels accentuated with the NOOO-change - which is not marginal I might add but dealing with the very core of what the the entire saga is about, are the same people who don't get or deny the allusions to the hero's journey or the cultural references. The two camps as I see them after following this thread for a couple of month are:

CAMP A: We consider Star Wars (the OT) as part of our childhood memories and are therefore against any changes to the material. We don't consider the movies to have any value other than entertainment and nostalgia. We don't grant the PT the same status - they are mere add-ons to the "real" Star Wars movies. Star Wars belongs in the past and to one generation.

CAMP B: We consider Star Wars (the entire saga) as a retelling of the heroes journey which draws its outer shell from myth and culture and its core from the development of the human soul and has a message and a significance beyond mere entertainment. Therefore we welcome change that adds to the cohesion of the episodes and strenghthens the impact of the saga. Star Wars is timeless and belongs to all generations even those to come.

Interestingly enough the same thing can be said for the Dune saga (written by Frank Herbert and Brian Herbert). The hatred coming from Dune's camp A is just as bad as it is here for Star Wars. I'm in camp B for both Star Wars and Dune, and I feel sorry for everyone in camp A.

[Valaquen]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

I find it amusing that people who are against the prallels accentuated with the NOOO-change - which is not marginal I might add but dealing with the very core of what the the entire saga is about, are the same people who don't get or deny the allusions to the hero's journey or the cultural references. The two camps as I see them after following this thread for a couple of month are:

CAMP A: We consider Star Wars (the OT) as part of our childhood memories and are therefore against any changes to the material. We don't consider the movies to have any value other than entertainment and nostalgia. We don't grant the PT the same status - they are mere add-ons to the "real" Star Wars movies. Star Wars belongs in the past and to one generation.

CAMP B: We consider Star Wars (the entire saga) as a retelling of the heroes journey which draws its outer shell from myth and culture and its core from the development of the human soul and has a message and a significance beyond mere entertainment. Therefore we welcome change that adds to the cohesion of the episodes and strenghthens the impact of the saga. Star Wars is timeless and belongs to all generations even those to come.

Crap. The 'old' fans consider the OT to be more than some exclusive nostalgia club. The fact that they're so annoyed/angry is because the OT, as originally shown, will be lost to Posterity. To seem to suggest that the OT has no message or significance without the PT is baffling, especially considering it was the OT that cemented and guaranteed the success of the PT in the first place. Star Wars, as the hypothetical Camp B sees it, is not timeless - timeless products don't need revisions every few years.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by LetoAtreides82

Interestingly enough the same thing can be said for the Dune saga (written by Frank Herbert and Brian Herbert). The hatred coming from Dune's camp A is just as bad as it is here for Star Wars. I'm in camp B for both Star Wars and Dune, and I feel sorry for everyone in camp A.

Exactly. There is enough crap out there (Transformers, Terminator, Twilight and other movies starting with the letter T). Stuff like Star Wars, Matrix or LotR that has actually something to say other than Boom or Bang is a rare thing...

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by georgec

That's not poetry or parallelism, it's lazy/rushed writing and an inability to come up with anything new or original. Some may think it's brilliant to borrow many plot and dialogue elements, while others will roll their eyes at the shameless plagiarism of the OT. I suppose people will interpret as they wish, but audiences don't really need to be spoon fed all the literal symbolism to see the similarities in story arcs.

The attempts to rationalize every little change in the spirit of parallelism are amusing. While that's the creator's intent, it's nowhere near effective or necessary. It's just laughable at this point, mang.

I agree. Well said.

[42041]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

I find it amusing that people who are against the prallels accentuated with the NOOO-change - which is not marginal I might add but dealing with the very core of what the the entire saga is about, are the same people who don't get or deny the allusions to the hero's journey or the cultural references. The two camps as I see them after following this thread for a couple of month are:

CAMP A: We consider Star Wars (the OT) as part of our childhood memories and are therefore against any changes to the material. We don't consider the movies to have any value other than entertainment and nostalgia. We don't grant the PT the same status - they are mere add-ons to the "real" Star Wars movies. Star Wars belongs in the past and to one generation.

CAMP B: We consider Star Wars (the entire saga) as a retelling of the heroes journey which draws its outer shell from myth and culture and its core from the development of the human soul and has a message and a significance beyond mere entertainment. Therefore we welcome change that adds to the cohesion of the episodes and strenghthens the impact of the saga. Star Wars is timeless and belongs to all generations even those to come.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone pull the "you just don't understand art, maaan" card in defense of the Star Wars prequels, I love it

[octagon]

Originally Posted by hipster.doofus7

I like the idea of Vader yelling NOOOO! at the Frankenstein scene. I think most people will agree it was necessary. The majority of the complaints had to do with James Earl Jones' poor delivery of that line. It didn't have the kind of anguish that was necessary for such an emotional scene. I was really hoping they would re-dub the scene for Blu-ray; unfortunately, they didn't.

Yeah, that was the problem...James Earl Jones.

The complaints had nothing to do with the fact that the first words of the most iconic villian in film history were to ask if his girlfriend called. They had nothing to do with the fact that the first act of the most iconic villian in film history was to blindly break every toy in sight.

Palpatine's incredibly silly Simon Barsinister impersonation? Didn't even notice it.

Padme losing her will to live five minutes earlier? Water under the bridge.

No, the problem was clearly James Earl Jones.

[Show spoiler]Yes, I get that he was Vader before he put the suit on. That's not particularly relevant to the power - or not - of that scene. That scene should have caused goosebumps, not eyerolls and redubbing the NOOO wouldn't have made it any less silly

[WMAangel]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

I find it amusing that people who are against the prallels accentuated with the NOOO-change - which is not marginal I might add but dealing with the very core of what the the entire saga is about, are the same people who don't get or deny the allusions to the hero's journey or the cultural references. The two camps as I see them after following this thread for a couple of month are:

CAMP A: We consider Star Wars (the OT) as part of our childhood memories and are therefore against any changes to the material. We don't consider the movies to have any value other than entertainment and nostalgia. We don't grant the PT the same status - they are mere add-ons to the "real" Star Wars movies. Star Wars belongs in the past and to one generation.

CAMP B: We consider Star Wars (the entire saga) as a retelling of the heroes journey which draws its outer shell from myth and culture and its core from the development of the human soul and has a message and a significance beyond mere entertainment. Therefore we welcome change that adds to the cohesion of the episodes and strenghthens the impact of the saga. Star Wars is timeless and belongs to all generations even those to come.

I am in CAMP C, which is "why not just please everyone and go the Blade Runner/Apocalypse Now/Alien/Aliens route".....aka release both (or all) versions so both camps A and B are happy...

This way, Camp A can watch the OT without the "out of place CGI enhancements, silly extra scenes, and unnecessary changes", and Camp B can watch the updated versions without the "dated effects, inconsistencies, and lack of saga-tying additions/changes"....in other words: EVERYONE WINS and the arguing stops!
Simple really, when you think about it....all this bickering back and forth could end so easily...