Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[blonde_devil]

Originally Posted by octagon

In what way? What did Episode I add to the cultural zeitgeist? Midichlorians? Meesa thinkin? Roger roger?

It was definitely a big deal but so is every Super Bowl. As an institution the Super Bowl is culturally significant. But individual Super Bowls? Not so much. They tend to come and go.

Is Episode I really any more culturally significant than Super Bowl XXXIII?

who says the Super Bowl is significant? I have no idea who won last year or the year before or the year before and am not really feeling a gap in my life because of it. People put way too many things down as culturally signifcant but forget that with most, more people are not involved/didn't watch it than did. About 111 million people watched the last one in a country of over 300 million - less than half the country. Impressive number but how many tuned in for the game and how many for the commercials? Right now, I would say the Super Bowl commericals are culturally signifcant, the game - meh. But that is a different topic. With Episode I, I do think it is culturally significant or rather everything up to the movie is as look back and look at the hype and anticipation around it. How many other movies had that? The movie itself is also significant but not in a good way - it shows how some movies will never match the hype the world puts on it. It isn't singificant in the way people say the original film is but it is still significant.

With Jake Lloyd, it is sad that he is yet another child actor who hates his work. Look at all the child actors that got famous for a role and then ended up hating that role down the road. I think any child who actually wanted a career in acting would have had a hard time after that role.

[IndyMLVC]

Originally Posted by blonde_devil

who says the Super Bowl is significant? I have no idea who won last year or the year before or the year before and am not really feeling a gap in my life because of it. People put way too many things down as culturally signifcant but forget that with most, more people are not involved/didn't watch it than did. About 111 million people watched the last one in a country of over 300 million - less than half the country. Impressive number but how many tuned in for the game and how many for the commercials? Right now, I would say the Super Bowl commericals are culturally signifcant, the game - meh. But that is a different topic. With Episode I, I do think it is culturally significant or rather everything up to the movie is as look back and look at the hype and anticipation around it. How many other movies had that? The movie itself is also significant but not in a good way - it shows how some movies will never match the hype the world puts on it. It isn't singificant in the way people say the original film is but it is still significant.

With Jake Lloyd, it is sad that he is yet another child actor who hates his work. Look at all the child actors that got famous for a role and then ended up hating that role down the road. I think any child who actually wanted a career in acting would have had a hard time after that role.

What movie has the same build-up of 16 years of anticipation? I'd say that Episode 7 might be even MORE than this...because no one ever thought it would happen. Eps 1-3 were (more or less) always on the radar. And, tbh, more people care about 4-6 than 1-3.

Star Wars is a worldwide phenomenon. The Superbowl is simply American. And, as has been pointed out, not even half the country cares.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by balthazar_bee

For the record, Natalie Portman is every bit as terrible as our man Hayden in Attack of the Clones. As a more established screen actor, it's easier to overlook I guess, but she barely seems to know what she's doing in any given scene. I've never been able to look at her the same way since.

Frankly, I think they both fare considerably better in Revenge of the Sith, a film I genuinely enjoy and admire, hmm, "in its totality"? I like parts of The Phantom Menace (I'd better, since I saw it theatrically an ungodly number of times), and there are a few isolated things in Attack of the Clones that are enjoyable...but to say that either are superior to Revenge of the Sith?

Hell, at this point I like Sith quite a bit more than Jedi, and I watched the shit out of Jedi as a kid, thinking it was the greatest movie of all time.

I think what strikes me most about ROTS is how lean it is. AOTC is a lot of pointless, weightless dialogue exchanges (not exactly GL's "for-tay") and scenes of spaceships taking off and arriving, while the always-reliable John Williams tries desperately to add a bit of gravity. (Even this was sabotaged at the editing stage, with Lucas and Burtt reusing several TPM cues to distracting and none-too-impressive effect.) It's the longest of the prequels, as I recall, and roughly half of the movie has exactly zero dramatic impact.

Just look at the opening scene -- almost certainly the worst scene in Star Wars history -- which has all of the film's biggest flaws on parade: A spaceship arrives, there's an explosion, followed by a poorly-written/delivered-yet-supposedly-weighty dialogue scene (that I'm still convinced makes very little sense), then a wipe transition to an anonymous room in Coruscant and some more of the same.

Every time I watch ROTS, I marvel at how much momentum it has. At the halfway point, I suddenly realize that the final act of the film is about to start, and I can't believe how quickly the time has passed. There's no fat on it. AOTC, by comparison, has no meat.

TPM is somewhere in between. A reasonably involving story, with a few questionable scenes (or scenes that wear out their welcome), culminating in a spectacular duel that tends to redeem everything that came before.

Just one guy's opinion. Might as well talk about this, since I'm sure some of us are tired of repeating, "Release the OUT already!"

You're absolutely right about Portman. Sooooooooo many people focus on Hayden's shouty 'special needs' acting style (sorry if that ain't PC, but it's the truth), yet she's every bit as bad, if not worse. That blank look that she gives him at the end of AOTC after they've just been married is one of the most horribly vacant pieces of acting I've ever seen. (And yet if we watch the deleted scene with Padme at home, she's fine there. Strange.)

And you're absolutely right about the prequels in general. Phantom Menace is basically a remake of Star Wars with a bit of Jedi mixed in at the end; as such it starts with a bang then slows to a crawl before building up to a big, cross-cut finale. I likes it. But Clones is tragically bad in places, lumbered with an impenetrable plot and the aforementioned diabolical acting. But I love the arena execution scene and it's AWESOME when the Jedi go to war, it's such a shame we have to suffer through the rest of that crap to get it.

Sith is great, aside from some infamous missteps and the usual clunky dialogue, because it's the most propulsive prequel by far. As you say, it really moves and there's some great stuff in there, IMO it's a better movie than Jedi ("Run away! FAR away!") but it doesn't carry the same level of cultural caché so it'll always be seen as a poor relation.

[IndyMLVC]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You're absolutely right about Portman. Sooooooooo many people focus on Hayden's shouty 'special needs' acting style (sorry if that ain't PC, but it's the truth), yet she's every bit as bad, if not worse. That blank look that she gives him at the end of AOTC after they've just been married is one of the most horribly vacant pieces of acting I've ever seen. (And yet if we watch the deleted scene with Padme at home, she's fine there. Strange.)

I've NEVER gotten the love for Portman. There's a handful of movies that I think she's passable in (Garden State, Leon, etc) but, by and large, she's crap. I once saw her on-stage in Central Park. She was awful.

[Gaius Marius]

Originally Posted by Elvis

+1
It's the best prequel by a country mile! Clones was an utter piece of garbage and Sith was not much better, well maybe quite a bit better but still very disapointing! But that second one (shudder) was just awful.

I agree. I think it is funny how more and more people are voicing this opinion. I guess it is no longer 'cool' to rag on Phantom Menace and people are actually seeing that Episode II is the true red-headed step child of the series.

I think people pick on Phantom Menace because it is so ingrained in pop culture to hate that film and that it is trendy to do so. It is funny how, despite that stigma, it is easily the best of the prequels.

[klauswhereareyou]

I'd say Lucas probably doesn't have a clue how to direct a woman.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

Content-wise, Ep1 is irrelevant.

Definitely with you so far

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

As an event, it certainly is culturally significant.

Again, in what way?

The last episode of M*A*S*H was, at the time, culturally significant. It drew a massive audience. It was the kind of communal experience that doesn't happen very often. It was a big deal.

At the time.

But did it have any lasting cultural significance?

I dunno....

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

The Superbowl happens every year and I'm going to bet that there are more people worldwide that care about Star Wars than 1 recurring American football game. Not even a competition.

You're right. It's not a competition. I was simply trying to illustrate a point.

Star Wars as an institution is culturally significant in ways that many of its individual elements - in this case Episode I - are not.

[dcowboy7]

Originally Posted by blonde_devil

About 111 million people watched the last one in a country of over 300 million - less than half the country.

Thats not really true.

112.2 million was the avg viewers during any portion of the game BUT about 165 million watched at least part of the game so that is more than half.

+ that doesnt even factor in all the people at bars, parties etc.

[warrian]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You're absolutely right about Portman. Sooooooooo many people focus on Hayden's shouty 'special needs' acting style (sorry if that ain't PC, but it's the truth), yet she's every bit as bad, if not worse. That blank look that she gives him at the end of AOTC after they've just been married is one of the most horribly vacant pieces of acting I've ever seen. (And yet if we watch the deleted scene with Padme at home, she's fine there. Strange.

I remember watching the "Padme at home" outtakes and truly mourning their loss from the film. She is so natural in them and the whole sequence feels like the gifted daughter returning from her first year at college or something. There's so little in the prequels that help make the characters in any way relatable. Obviously the plot doesn't need it at all, which is why they cut it, but put those scenes back in and cut the conveyor belt business and I think you have at least a marginally improved film.

Did those bits, even in deleted form actually make it to the Blu-ray set?

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

Probably because unlike Naboo, they were all mosly done in a computer (but hey we got a compositied Mt. Etna in lava land or whatever the heck it was called in Sith).

Except Mustafar was MINIATURES.


People need to make sure things actually are CGI before bashing CGI.

[klauswhereareyou]

Originally Posted by warrian

I remember watching the "Padme at home" outtakes and truly mourning their loss from the film. She is so natural in them and the whole sequence feels like the gifted daughter returning from her first year at college or something. There's so little in the prequels that help make the characters in any way relatable. Obviously the plot doesn't need it at all, which is why they cut it, but put those scenes back in and cut the conveyor belt business and I think you have at least a marginally improved film.

Did those bits, even in deleted form actually make it to the Blu-ray set?

They could've went back to the rough cut of the conveyor belt that didn't include the wacky C-3PO getting his head put on a battle droid and it would've been shorter. And hey then they could've kept it the way John Williams scored it (before the dopy C-3PO crap was added) instead of hacking in music from other parts of the film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN4Bgv74JNw

[octagon]

Originally Posted by dcowboy7

Thats not really true.

112.2 million was the avg viewers during any portion of the game BUT about 165 million watched at least part of the game so that is more than half.

Not only that, putting 'only' in front of '1/3' is a little odd to begin with.

One out of three is a lot of freaking people

[klauswhereareyou]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Except Mustafar was MINIATURES.


People need to make sure things actually are CGI before bashing CGI.

What does that have to do with it? The minis were compositied in no??? I'm saying Palace stuff in PM was actually shot in a real palace in Italy, not people standing against a green screen with stuff compositied in later.
Guessing the mini stuff was also tweaked heavily with CGI.

[IndyMLVC]

Originally Posted by octagon

The last episode of M*A*S*H was, at the time, culturally significant. It drew a massive audience. It was the kind of communal experience that doesn't happen very often. It was a big deal.

At the time.

But did it have any lasting cultural significance?

I dunno....

Ahhh but that's not what you said. You said it wasn't culturally significant. At the time, it certainly was and that's what matters. I would classify it as one of those "where were you when..." moments. People will typically remember where they were or who they saw it with. Of course, it's not on the level of JFK or 9/11 but, thankfully, few moments are. Pop culture speaking, I'd say it's prety damn relevant.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by warrian

I remember watching the "Padme at home" outtakes and truly mourning their loss from the film. She is so natural in them and the whole sequence feels like the gifted daughter returning from her first year at college or something. There's so little in the prequels that help make the characters in any way relatable. Obviously the plot doesn't need it at all, which is why they cut it, but put those scenes back in and cut the conveyor belt business and I think you have at least a marginally improved film.

Did those bits, even in deleted form actually make it to the Blu-ray set?

Nope. LFL, in their wisdom, left off ALL of the prequel deleted scenes which were on the DVDs. Instead of reproducing them on the Blu-ray set - the HD quality of which would naturally take advantage of the fact that some of them were fully finished - we just got a scattering of deleted fragments which weren't included first time around.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

They could've went back to the rough cut of the conveyor belt that didn't include the wacky C-3PO getting his head put on a battle droid and it would've been shorter. And hey then they could've kept it the way John Williams scored it (before the dopy C-3PO crap was added) instead of hacking in music from other parts of the film.

Heh. Whether the rough cut of the scene was better or not, the whole thing was done in the reshoots because Lucas thought the film needed some more action! Y'know, before the entire reel of action starting with the arena execution then the Jedi coming to the rescue then the Jedi going off to war then Anakin and Obi-Wan vs Dooku. Yep, what the film needed just before that lot was more action, he said sarcastically.

And yes, they absolutely murdered John Williams' score in that movie, which is another reason why I dislike it. I'm amazed that Ben Burtt and his sound effects mafia didn't strangle Williams' score in a similar fasion for the third one, which would've robbed us of terrific cues like Battle of the Heroes and that spooky-assed music when Padme and Anakin are looking out across the city just before shit gets real.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

Ahhh but that's not what you said. You said it wasn't culturally significant. At the time, it certainly was and that's what matters.

I don't think I did say that. I simply questioned your contention that TPS *IS* (both tense and emphasis are yours) absolutely culturally significant.

I acknowledged that it was a big deal but some big deals have lasting impact and some big deals come and go.

IMO TPM is of the 'come and go' variety.

[Batmon77]

Originally Posted by octagon

IMO TPM is of the 'come and go' variety.

Avatar

[Ryan0503]

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

That's a ridiculous statement. Whether you love it or hate it, TPM *IS* absolutely culturally significant.

Originally Posted by octagon

In what way? What did Episode I add to the cultural zeitgeist? Midichlorians? Meesa thinkin? Roger roger?

It was definitely a big deal but so is every Super Bowl. As an institution the Super Bowl is culturally significant. But individual Super Bowls? Not so much. They tend to come and go.

Is Episode I really any more culturally significant than Super Bowl XXXIII?

Originally Posted by octagon

Actually for me one of the absolute best moments in Episode I was not only CGI but CGI of the all encompassing variety that presaged Avatar - the approach to the underwater city was absolutely breath-taking. I like to refer to the appearance of the Imperial cruiser at the beginning of Star Wars as a 'we're not in Kansas anymore' moment and this was very much like that.

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I agree. If you take out Jar Jar and replace the kid with one who can act that movie could suddenly be respectable. The other two could never be respectable (for me, of course).

TPM had a HUGE impact on cinema. Love him or hate him, Jar Jar Binks was the first CG Character to be a main character in a movie. To me this is groundbreaking. I even remember serious talks from actors and film makers about how actors would be replaced with CG characters, and lots of actors expressed the fear of the future of their career. I mean it sounds silly now but this was groundbreaking stuff in the cinema world back then. So Id say yes, TPM is culturally significant ... much more so than the Superbowl.

[Kryptonic]

TPM also brought back the sci-fi/fantasy franchises. Before TPM, blockbusters were based on movie stars and original ideas, but after TPM you had Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Matrix, etc. etc. Everything had to be a trilogy or a series, much in the same way all the studios were trying to create franchises after Star Wars success in 1977.