Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Optimus]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

There's one thing in Revenge of the Sith that I've never been entirely clear about. During the end fight with Yoda, Sidious says "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us". So what exactly is his plan with this, if Vader had become the most powerful Sith ever instead of getting his arms and legs hacked off, surely he would have killed Sidious eventually to become the master? Why would Sidious want to take on an apprentice that will eventually become more powerful than he is? Any ideas?

That's the way of the Sith with the Rule of Two, there's always a master and an apprentice. Eventually the apprentice betrays the master, and so on and so on.

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by OptimusL

That's the way of the Sith with the Rule of Two, there's always a master and an apprentice. Eventually the apprentice betrays the master, and so on and so on.

I knew about the rule of two but I didn't realise the master expected the apprentice to eventually betray and kill him. Is that not a little strange for a master who wants 'unlimited power' to just wait to be overthrown and murdered by his apprentice?

That seems to contradict what happened with Dooku, where Sidious got Anakin to kill him, thus making him his new apprentice. So is that the plan, keep replacing your apprentice with someone new/more powerful before they get a chance to kill you, the master? If so, I still don't understand why Sidious seems to be boasting to Yoda that Vader will become more powerful than either of them, as if he wants to sacrifice himself for Vader to take over. Am I over thinking this?

[thegoat]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

I knew about the rule of two but I didn't realise the master expected the apprentice to eventually betray and kill him. Is that not a little strange for a master who wants 'unlimited power' to just wait to be overthrown and murdered by his apprentice?

It is, but the Sith are also indoctrinated with the desire to pass on the Sith legacy to powerful successors. If Vader became powerful enough to defeat Palpatine, the master would consider his life to be compete. I'd guess that he originally expected Maul would fulfill this role and carry on the legacy of the Sith. "They wil be no match for you."

[Thomas Guycott]

Originally Posted by OptimusL

That's the way of the Sith with the Rule of Two, there's always a master and an apprentice. Eventually the apprentice betrays the master, and so on and so on.

And the whole master->apprentice cycle would go on until the Two Sith were strong enough to finally destroy the Jedi Order and conquer the galaxy.

Before Darth Bane implemented the Rule of Two the Sith was more like an aristocracy of Dark Lords constantly fighting and eliminating each other in personal vendettas and vies for power, severely weakening themselves as a collective threat against the Jedi and Republic.

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by thegoat

It is, but the Sith are also indoctrinated with the desire to pass on the Sith legacy to powerful successors. If Vader became powerful enough to defeat Palpatine, the master would consider his life to be compete. I'd guess that he originally expected Maul would fulfill this role and carry on the legacy of the Sith. "They wil be no match for you."

Interesting, I didn't know that (haven't watched The Clone Wars yet though). It almost makes the Sith somewhat selfless in that they are happy to sacrifice themselves to continue their legacy.

Could George not have just made this clearer in the prequel trilogy as a whole, a simple scene between Sidious and one of his apprentices detailing the rule of two could have cleared this up nicely.

[Thomas Guycott]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

I knew about the rule of two but I didn't realise the master expected the apprentice to eventually betray and kill him. Is that not a little strange for a master who wants 'unlimited power' to just wait to be overthrown and murdered by his apprentice?

Originally Posted by thegoat

It is, but the Sith are also indoctrinated with the desire to pass on the Sith legacy to powerful successors. If Vader became powerful enough to defeat Palpatine, the master would consider his life to be compete. I'd guess that he originally expected Maul would fulfill this role and carry on the legacy of the Sith. "They wil be no match for you."

It's also possible that Palpatine saw himself as powerful enough to end the cycle. Stepping into the EU for a moment; Palpatine intended to rule the Empire forever (which is one reason why a line of succession didn't exist and caused the Imperial Civil War to break out), and in the extreme long term, spread his influence out beyond the galaxy.

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by Thomas Guycott

It's also possible that Palpatine saw himself as powerful enough to end the cycle. Stepping into the EU for a moment; Palpatine intended to rule the Empire forever (which is one reason why a line of succession didn't exist and caused the Imperial Civil War to break out), and in the extreme long term, spread his influence out beyond the galaxy.

And this might also lead into the cheating death element if he did intend to be the last Sith. What greater power than immortality? And if it's not Palpatine who does this, it's VERY likely this will be an element with someone in the new films. It's the only logical next step in terms of being all powerful. I have a feeling the bad guy might have to be destroyed in the physical realm as well as the netherworld this time. A battle on two planes of existence. With space battles too of course .

[Optimus]

Originally Posted by thegoat

It is, but the Sith are also indoctrinated with the desire to pass on the Sith legacy to powerful successors. If Vader became powerful enough to defeat Palpatine, the master would consider his life to be compete. I'd guess that he originally expected Maul would fulfill this role and carry on the legacy of the Sith. "They wil be no match for you."

I think Maul was always meant to be a weapon, carrying out the assasin roles. Dooku on the otherhand had more to offer, he was powerful but had the political ties and influence to start the Clone Wars.

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by OptimusL

I think Maul was always meant to be a weapon, carrying out the assasin roles. Dooku on the otherhand had more to offer, he was powerful but had the political ties and influence to start the Clone Wars.

It would have been great if George had included Dooku as a Jedi in The Phantom Menace, and had him leave the order by the end of the film. I know George made these films up as he went along pretty much, but that would have given Dooku a lot more depth for when he reappears as a bad guy in the sequel.

[sarah_wentworth]

Originally Posted by wormraper

pretty much every critic does that. if you notice at the bottom of every review it says very blatantly that everything written is their opinion etc...

plus, why should it matter if they say IMO or not? we already KNOW it's their opinion,

nah. usually has their name and personal info.
it matters because the majority of people are naive and gullible. they believe everything they read.

anyway i'm just giving my review of critics. in my opinion they're a bunch of useless frauds. maybe they should make a movie first before they trash them. that won't happen of course because 99.9 percent of critics know nothing about movies.

all critics rating: 0/4 stars.

there now i'm a critic. see its that easy. i'm a critic critic. i review critics.

now you can't argue because its my profession and i work hard at it lol.

Originally Posted by KaineKinetic

I agree with Sarah one at least one thing... Most reviewers and critics spout their opinion as if it were true. And most people take it as such. That is why you see, for example, the people who say Game of Thrones is nothing more than Porn and Beheadings. Because some critic said it once and the people who never watched it ever also say the same thing. I call these "Sheeple."

yeah. a couple critics said the movie 'Heaven’s Gate' sucked, so all the other critics said that to. i just read how it became the "cool" thing to do, trash the movie. they were actually trying to see who could trash it the most lol. some of them never even seen the movie. they ruined the directors career.

now many consider it a masterpiece.

anyway i'll just watch movies and if i like them great. i don't need critics to tell me what i like.

[sarah_wentworth]

Originally Posted by wormraper

Of course its true....to them. Not only that its their JOB to tell you what they think. The people who believe everything blindly are more at fault than a critic giving his/her opinion. No one is forced to take everything as fact. Any critical reader takes every review with a grain of salt as its told through the filter of the reviewer. Reviews exist to inform. What you DO with that Information is up to you.

As I've said a billion times. We are the anomoly. We research things and are willing to take blind buy risks. The average person doesn't want to

getting paid to tell people what they think is just dumb lol.
what sucks is critics can make or break a movie. thats why movie posters or ads say "ebert gives it 4 stars!

ebert, the guy that gave "Cop and a Half" 3 stars and "The Usual Suspects" 1.5 stars lol.

this is all ridiculous. all i'm trying to say is a critics opinion is of no greater value than yours. its supposed to be a compliment.

back to Star Wars.

SW and TESB are okay movies. the rest according to public opinion suck. 2 good out of 6 movies is actually kinda bad. yay!

[sarah_wentworth]

Originally Posted by mrpink134

I decided to watch the trilogy today, I like to watch it at least once a year and i do what I always do 3,4,5,6 I skip 1 and 2 and pretend that they never happened. Horrible movies.

thats to bad. i love part 2. phantom menace is great except for to much Jar Jar and Darth Maul having a cheap death. no way Kenobi could beat Maul. he can't even beat Jango Fett

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

It would have been great if George had included Dooku as a Jedi in The Phantom Menace, and had him leave the order by the end of the film. I know George made these films up as he went along pretty much, but that would have given Dooku a lot more depth for when he reappears as a bad guy in the sequel.

This this this this this this this. Even just an offhand mention of Dooku having left the order ("Now is not the time for this" etc) would've been nice. Same with Grievous, they retconned it so that he was in the catacombs on Geonosis killing Jedi, but if Lucas actually had such a bad guy in mind, he could've put in a mysterious scene in Clones with someone or something taking out lots of Jedi, if he'd shot it in darkness then he could still use whatever design he liked for the reveal of the character in the next movie. Unfortunately the dude just doesn't think that far ahead and he never has done, that's simply not the way he works.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

And this might also lead into the cheating death element if he did intend to be the last Sith. What greater power than immortality? And if it's not Palpatine who does this, it's VERY likely this will be an element with someone in the new films. It's the only logical next step in terms of being all powerful. I have a feeling the bad guy might have to be destroyed in the physical realm as well as the netherworld this time. A battle on two planes of existence. With space battles too of course .

Well, we do actually see Yoda grappling with the metaphysical side of the Force in the incredible finale to Clone Wars (which informs the original trilogy as much as it does the prequels IMO), so you might be on to something there. A showdown in the netherworld of the Force could contain all manner of crazy imagery, it'd either be a total cluster**** or the greatest thing ever.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

And this might also lead into the cheating death element if he did intend to be the last Sith. What greater power than immortality? And if it's not Palpatine who does this, it's VERY likely this will be an element with someone in the new films. It's the only logical next step in terms of being all powerful. I have a feeling the bad guy might have to be destroyed in the physical realm as well as the netherworld this time. A battle on two planes of existence. With space battles too of course .

He had hundreds of cloned bodies and kept passing his conscionsness into them as they were used up.
That Aura/Cloud after he was dropped down the shaft in RotJ was expanded upon in the Expanded Universe.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by sarah_wentworth

thats to bad. i love part 2. phantom menace is great except for to much Jar Jar and Darth Maul having a cheap death. no way Kenobi could beat Maul. he can't even beat Jango Fett

You should flip that because Maul came first...
There is no way Obi-Wan CAN'T beat Jango, he beat Maul!

[Optimus]

Originally Posted by KaineKinetic

You should flip that because Maul came first...
There is no way Obi-Wan CAN'T beat Jango, he beat Maul!

I think sarah just likes the bad guys more

[Gold Ranger]

Bob Iger actually made Lucas write out treatments for Episodes 7, 8 and 9.
This will be the first time that a Star Wars Trilogy will have its Sequels thought about and influence the other movies.
Assuming they kept any of George's idea, which it doesn't sound like they have, with getting rid of Micheal Arndt and starting over with the scripts.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by OptimusL

I think sarah just likes the bad guys more

I can be a bad guy...

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by KaineKinetic

I can be a bad guy...

Just because you're a bad guy doesn't mean you're a BAD guy